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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63181 01/23/23 07:04 PM
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I too am curious about the Data folder showing up on your desktop. In Ventura, Monterey, Big Sur, and Catalina there is no default Data folder, but there is a Data Volume where all user folders, settings, and documents are stored. It is the only volume on the boot drive that you have read & write access to. Depending on Finder settings it may appear in the Finder sidebar, but not on the Desktop itself.

Just to satisfy my curiosity would you do a Get Info on the errant Data folder and post a screenshot of the resulting Get Info window? A screenshot of the Disk Utility sidebar might also help clear up the issue.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63186 01/23/23 08:30 PM
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As I read it, ryck is talking about a folder he created that is called and contains data.

I can't begin to guess how many versions of the OS ago it was, but I remember being able to add items to the top level of my Mac as /Whatever.

It sounds like ryck's Data folder was created under those circumstances but has now run afoul of a new restriction which has resulted in its being relocated to his desktop for lack of a better alternative.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63191 01/24/23 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
In Ventura, Monterey, Big Sur, and Catalina there is no default Data folder, but there is a Data Volume where all user folders, settings, and documents are stored. It is the only volume on the boot drive that you have read & write access to. Depending on Finder settings it may appear in the Finder sidebar, but not on the Desktop itself.
I have seen a window with Data Folder and, beneath it, Data Volume.... but don't recall where.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Just to satisfy my curiosity would you do a Get Info on the errant Data folder and post a screenshot of the resulting Get Info window? A screenshot of the Disk Utility sidebar might also help clear up the issue.
I've never had success in posting at FTM, despite following instructions, so I'll just list what's in the two Get Info windows. FYI, I still have both machines running as I have a conflicting Zoom meetings on Thursday and need one machine to record one meeting while I attend the other. The Get Infor information is the same on both machines.

Get Info for "Data Folder" on the Desktop

Kind: Folder
Size: 141,021,712,721 bytes (141.68 GB on disk for 68,639 items)
Where: iCloud Drive - Desktop
Created: January 19, 2023 at 1:37 PM
Modified: January 23, 2023 at 6:26 PM
Shared Folder: Not checked
Locked: Not checked
More Info:
Last opened: January 23,2023 at 1:19 PM
Name and Extension:
Data
Comments: None
Preview: An image of a folder
Sharing and Permissions:
You can read and write
...followed by
Name Privilege
My Name Read & Write
staff Read Only
everyone Read Only


Get Info for "Disk Utility.app" on the Desktop

Kind: Application (Universal)
Size: 8,492,624 bytes (8.7 MB on disk)
Where: Mac HDD - Applications - Utilities
Created: January 1, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Modified: January 1, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Version: 20.1
Copyright: 2015-2021 Apple Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Open in low resolution not checked
More Info:
Last opened: January 24,2023 at 1:48 AM
Name and Extension:
Disk Utility.app
Comments: None
Preview: The Disk Utility icon
Sharing and Permissions:
You have custom access
...followed by
Name Privilege
system Read & Write
wheel Read Only
everyone Read Only


ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63192 01/24/23 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by joemikeb
In Ventura, Monterey, Big Sur, and Catalina there is no default Data folder, but there is a Data Volume where all user folders, settings, and documents are stored. It is the only volume on the boot drive that you have read & write access to. Depending on Finder settings it may appear in the Finder sidebar, but not on the Desktop itself.
I have seen a window with Data Folder and, beneath it, Data Volume.... but don't recall where.
Just to get back to square one, what are the contents of your Data folder that used to be at the top level of your iMac but is now on your desktop?

If, as I believe you said at the get-go, they're simply YOUR data, joemike is off on a wild goose chase, i.e., your Data VOLUME has nothing to do with your issue, and your answer is what I've been saying: The folder, presumably because of some change in macOS, can no longer inhabit its original location, and the OS has relocated it to your desktop.

If I'm correct, you've got two options: You can either leave it on your desktop or create a new folder in /Users and populate it with your data.

And if not...Never mind. smile


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63195 01/24/23 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Just to get back to square one, what are the contents of your Data folder that used to be at the top level of your iMac but is now on your desktop?
These data are MY data. i.e. various documents I have accumulated over the years and which I must keep.

Originally Posted by artie505
If I'm correct, you've got two options: You can either leave it on your desktop or create a new folder in /Users and populate it with your data.
That would be preferable, particularly if it helps applications 'find' the Data folder. Right now I am having to save documents to the desktop and then Drag & Drop into the Data folder....a giant pain.

As the Users now reside on the hard drive, and I can't Drag and Drop to the hard drive, how would I get the Data folder to a folder in Users?


ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63196 01/24/23 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
If, as I believe you said at the get-go, they're simply YOUR data, joemike is off on a wild goose chase, i.e., your Data VOLUME has nothing to do with your issue, and your answer is what I've been saying: The folder, presumably because of some change in macOS, can no longer inhabit its original location, and the OS has relocated it to your desktop.

If I'm correct, you've got two options: You can either leave it on your desktop or create a new folder in /Users and populate it with your data.

Whether I am on a wild goose chase or not, Get Info on the unmovable Data might yield information on WHY the folder is unmovable and lead to a solution that would make it movable.


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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63199 01/24/23 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Get Info on the unmovable Data might yield information on WHY the folder is unmovable and lead to a solution that would make it movable.
My fingers are crossed.


ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63204 01/25/23 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Whether I am on a wild goose chase or not, Get Info on the unmovable Data might yield information on WHY the folder is unmovable and lead to a solution that would make it movable.
I missed the part about the folder's being unmovable (so yeah, Get Info may help), and I've looked, but can't find it. (Someone please direct me.)

I thought the problem with which we're currently dealing is simply that the folder can't, via drag & drop or otherwise, be moved from the desktop to the top level of ryck's iMac.

So, ryck, please clear up my confusion, and restate the current problem, including which desktop - i.e., which iMac - the folder is on, and where it needs to be relocated to. Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63212 01/25/23 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
.... restate the current problem, including which desktop - i.e., which iMac - the folder is on, and where it needs to be relocated to.
The computer is the newer.....

iMac (Retina 5K, 27 inch, 2020)
Processor 3.8 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i7
Memory 8GB 2667 MHz DDR4
1 TB SSD

The file called Data is an icon on the desktop beside the Macintosh HD icon.

Double-clicking on the HD shows four folders:

Applications
Library
System
Users

I would like to move the Data folder onto the HD so that it shows five folders, the way it was on the old iMac.

Applications
Library
System
Users
Data

Last edited by ryck; 01/25/23 05:53 PM.

ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63220 01/26/23 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ryck
I would like to move the Data folder onto the HD so that it shows five folders, the way it was on the old iMac.

Applications
Library
System
Users
Data
OK, that's precisely what I thought we were after.

As far as I can tell, that's no longer possible in Ventura, but I've got no idea in which version of the OS the capability was lost.

Unless there's some arcane method to move your folder to the top level of your iMac using Terminal, you appear to be stuck with either having to leave your folder on your desktop or moving it to some other location.

As I said, it can be moved to /Users, but if it's something you access frequently, leaving it on your desktop seems to be a better idea.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63221 01/26/23 12:01 PM
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Here's an updated rewrite of my previous post...

Originally Posted by ryck
I would like to move the Data folder onto the HD so that it shows five folders, the way it was on the old iMac.

Applications
Library
System
Users
Data
OK, that's precisely what I thought we were after.

As far as I can tell, that's no longer possible in my Ventura, and, apparently, whichever earlier version of macOS you're running, but I've got no idea in which version of the OS the capability was lost.

Unless there's some arcane method to move your folder to the top level of your iMac using Terminal, you appear to be stuck with either leaving it on your desktop or moving it to some other location such as /Users, with a symbolic link for easy access on your desktop.

Hmmm... I didn't pay close attention to what joemike had you do, so this may be a dead issue already: There's an outside possibility that an upgrade of your original installation will perpetuate "Data's" original location. I'm basing my guess on the fact that I've got one kext still running that has been perpetuated only via upgrades. Migration Assistant is unable to do the job with a new installation.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63226 01/26/23 06:47 PM
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What you see in Finder in Ventura is not the actual physical layout of the Macintosh HD partition and volumes rather it is the logical structure of the sealed and encrypted Macintosh HD snapshot that is the actual bootable system. It is carefully curated by Apple to appear to the user much like the structure of earlier versions of macOS. On my systems the Data volume per. se. does not appear as a separate entity anywhere except in Disk Utility, or more accurately, when I look at Macintosh HD what the system shows me is actually the contents of the Data volume. However, that does not explain why there is a Data volume icon (it is a volume not a folder although they appear similar) is appearing on your desktop.

Artie is absolutely correct, what you want is no longer possible. Ventura is hard-coded to prevent it.


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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63233 01/27/23 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Artie is absolutely correct, what you want is no longer possible. Ventura is hard-coded to prevent it.
What about Monterey? That's what I'm running on the newer machine. 12.6.3


ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63234 01/27/23 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Artie is absolutely correct, what you want is no longer possible. Ventura is hard-coded to prevent it.
What about Monterey? That's what I'm running on the newer machine. 12.6.3
That's why I kinda waffled...because I'm not certain about Monterey.

It's now occurred to me to boot into my Monterey clone and test.

Later...


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63239 01/27/23 06:41 PM
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At one point in this discussion ryck said that the Data folder was a folder he created to hold a variety of stuff of his choosing and creation. Could this be as simple (hah!) as a name "conflict". "Data" is the name of the Apple created volume that did not exist as such in the recent past, but does now. Change the name? crazy


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, 27" iMac, M2 Macbook Air, macOS 10.15.x and MacOS 13; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
Ira L #63243 01/27/23 07:39 PM
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Replying to you and ryck...

When I finally got my MBP booted into my Monterey clone (after reinstalling Ventura...don't ask) I wasn't able to either create a new folder in or drag anything to the top level of my Mac.

And under any circumstances, there was no "Data" volume in Monterey. It didn't appear until Ventura.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63247 01/27/23 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
When I finally got my MBP booted into my Monterey clone (after reinstalling Ventura...don't ask) I wasn't able to either create a new folder in or drag anything to the top level of my Mac.
We now have more clues, and possibly a solution. I didn’t notice before but there is a very small iCloud icon under the Data folder on the desktop.

Here what I have done:

1. Double-clicked on the HD where there were 4 folders: Applications, Library. System, Users.

2. Clicked on Users and then on the one with my name.

3. Created a folder in that User called “New Data”

4. Dragged a single item from the Desktop to the “New Data” folder and it remained.

5. That item opens by double-clicking



Now it gets interesting….. I figured: If a single file can move from the Desktop to the User, maybe an entire folder can.

1. I tried dragging the “Data” folder from the Desktop into the “New Data” folder in my user account. I got this message:

Are you sure you want to remove “Data” from iCloud Drive?

This item will be moved to this Mac and will no longer be available in iCloud Drive on any of your devices.


I did not continue, thinking I should wait to get confirmation it’ll be okay. If the only downside is that I don’t have that folder on my iPad or iPhone, I don’t care.

2. As a test, I tried moving the “New Data” folder from the user account to the hard drive. I got this message:

Finder

Finder wants to move “New Data”. Enter your password to allow this.


I cancelled, preferring to wait for an opinion.

Last edited by ryck; 01/27/23 10:57 PM.

ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63260 01/28/23 08:41 PM
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I just realized something new in Ventura that I had not picked up on previously, and if I am correct it is the answer to what is going on with your mystery folder, but first I need the answer to four questions.

  1. Is System Settings > Apple ID > iCloud > iCloud Drive > turned ON?
  2. If it is turned ON click on Options and see if Desktop and Documents folders is checked
  3. Click on the Data folder in question and the press ⌘I. The resulting Get Info window should look something like this. What Kind of file is it? Where is it?


What I suspect is going to be difficult to explain so I will postpone the explanation and the fix until I get the answer to my questions, but I urge you not to do anything yet, there may be a risk of major data loss or corruption with what you are proposing.


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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63261 01/28/23 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
I just realized something new in Ventura....
ryck's running Monterey, not Ventura. Does that make any difference in your thinking?


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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63262 01/28/23 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
I just realized something new in Ventura that I had not picked up on previously, and if I am correct it is the answer to what is going on with your mystery folder, but first I need the answer to four questions.

  1. Is System Settings > Apple ID > iCloud > iCloud Drive > turned ON? Yes
  2. If it is turned ON click on Options and see if Desktop and Documents folders is checked Yes
  3. Click on the Data folder in question and the press ⌘I. The resulting Get Info window should look something like this. What Kind of file is it? Where is it?


Get Info sez:

Kind: Folder
Size: 1119,915,940,257 bytes (124.16 GB on disk) for 58,906 items
Where: iCloud Drive - Desktop

Last edited by ryck; 01/28/23 11:08 PM.

ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
ryck #63267 01/29/23 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ryck
We now have more clues, and possibly a solution. I didn’t notice before but there is a very small iCloud icon under the Data folder on the desktop.

Here what I have done:

1. Double-clicked on the HD where there were 4 folders: Applications, Library. System, Users.

2. Clicked on Users and then on the one with my name.

3. Created a folder in that User called “New Data”

4. Dragged a single item from the Desktop to the “New Data” folder and it remained.

5. That item opens by double-clicking



Now it gets interesting….. I figured: If a single file can move from the Desktop to the User, maybe an entire folder can.

1. I tried dragging the “Data” folder from the Desktop into the “New Data” folder in my user account. I got this message:

Are you sure you want to remove “Data” from iCloud Drive?

This item will be moved to this Mac and will no longer be available in iCloud Drive on any of your devices.


I did not continue, thinking I should wait to get confirmation it’ll be okay. If the only downside is that I don’t have that folder on my iPad or iPhone, I don’t care.
I don't see any reason why you can't drag Data to New Data; it's more or less, if not exactly, what I've been suggesting. I'd create an alias or symbolic link on my desktop to make access easier, though.

But I've got zero knowledge of iCloud Drive, so I've got to pass on that aspect of your question.

Originally Posted by ryck
2. As a test, I tried moving the “New Data” folder from the user account to the hard drive. I got this message:

Finder

Finder wants to move “New Data”. Enter your password to allow this.


I cancelled, preferring to wait for an opinion.
I've tried to move the equivalent of your New Data folder to the top level of my drive in Catalina, Monterey, and Ventura and gotten a "Prohibited" sign in all three.

What I did find, however was that I could duplicate your experience by trying to move the folder to /Users, i.e., the next level down from /HD, which wouldn't accomplish anything helpful to your situation.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63270 01/29/23 07:27 PM
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My apologies this is taking so long, but I think in attempting to force macOS to be organized like earlier versions of OS X you have accidentally created a Gordion knot that is going to be difficult to untie and may require cutting. If I were sitting at your keyboard, I could verify my suspicions in minutes, but since I am not at your keyboard it is going to take some time. I strongly suspect at this point you have an [i]endless loop[/p] situation where the folder you are trying to delete/move is contained in the folder your are trying to delete/move. But the what and why are not the objective, the objective is to solve the problem. That said, I will reiterate, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET BACK TO APPLICATIONS, LIBRARY, SYSTEM, USERS, AND DATA ON YOUR HARD DRIVE WITHOUT GOING BACK TO AN EARLIER VERSION OF MACOS (I am not sure how far back you would have to go, maybe as far back as Catalina.) However, you can easily get to something like this.

If that would satisfy you, the only issue remaining is getting rid of the problematic Data folder.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63271 01/29/23 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
...YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET BACK TO APPLICATIONS, LIBRARY, SYSTEM, USERS, AND DATA ON YOUR HARD DRIVE WITHOUT GOING BACK TO AN EARLIER VERSION OF MACOS (I am not sure how far back you would have to go, maybe as far back as Catalina.)
I wasn't able to do it in Catalina (last night). I've done similar in the past, but I've got no idea how long ago I last did it.

I'm confused, though, about "getting rid of the problematic Data folder." What is the problem?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
joemikeb #63287 02/01/23 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
My apologies this is taking so long...
Back at you. A bunch of personal stuff has taken my time, but I have been making some observations and should have some pertinent questions soon.


ryck

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Re: Backups gone wonky - TM & CCC
artie505 #63288 02/01/23 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I'm confused, though, about "getting rid of the problematic Data folder." What is the problem?
That'll be one of my questions. One of my observations is that it no longer has the little white iCloud icon under it.


ryck

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