An open community 
of Macintosh users,
for Macintosh users.

FineTunedMac Dashboard widget now available! Download Here

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: It's Ventura Time
freelance #62707 10/26/22 07:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 4
Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 4


Jon

macOS 11.7.1, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: It's Ventura Time
jchuzi #62713 10/28/22 10:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

And since I was experimenting, I decided to go the whole route and see if installing Ventura would turn a theoretically bootable, but actually non-bootable, clone bootable.

So, to make a long story short, after a seemingly endless succession of black screens, Apple logo screens, and screens with progression bars without time indicators, my MBP appeared to be getting ready to boot...when it kernel panicked...and kernel panicked a second time after it auto-restarted, at which point I threw in the towel.

I've dealt with failed installations before, but this was the first time I've ever (or in MANY years, at least) run into kernel panics, and just to be certain, I checked when I booted back into Monterey and found that the Ventura volume did, indeed, appear in System Prefs > Startup Disk.

Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62716 10/28/22 04:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Moderator
OP Offline
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

I use Canon printers, but all of my Canon printers support Apple Air Print, so no Canon-specific driver is required.

Originally Posted by artie505
Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

There is no requirement to have a full Ventura installation on the internal boot drive but, there is a hidden partition, iSCPreboot, that must be present on macs with Apple Silicon. It takes the place of the boot firmware on Intel Macs. Is it possible that it is also required on Intel Macs in Ventura? I no longer have an Intel Mac to experiment on.

Originally Posted by artie 505
Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.

Wow! I have never encountered anything resembling that, and I have both cloned and installed Ventura on an external volume, but then I have always started with a freshly erased target drive. Where did you get the Ventura installer?


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62722 10/29/22 09:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

I use Canon printers, but all of my Canon printers support Apple Air Print, so no Canon-specific driver is required.
My Canon is 9 1/2 years old, and only connects to my MBP via USB. It won't run through my AirPort Express Base Station, and when you instructed me how to use Bonjour, I couldn't get that to work either. (The printer was discontinued around three years ago, but its successor apparently runs the same software and Canon has kindly accommodated us "old timers" with the most recent drivers.)

Fun fact: After 9 1/2 years, I still haven't used up the original 700 page cartridge that came with the printer.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

There is no requirement to have a full Ventura installation on the internal boot drive but, there is a hidden partition, iSCPreboot, that must be present on macs with Apple Silicon. It takes the place of the boot firmware on Intel Macs. Is it possible that it is also required on Intel Macs in Ventura? I no longer have an Intel Mac to experiment on.
Thanks. That's what I was thinking of. (Aside: At the rate you go through Macs, you must have an endless supply of donees for the "old" ones.)

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie 505
Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.

Wow! I have never encountered anything resembling that, and I have both cloned and installed Ventura on an external volume, but then I have always started with a freshly erased target drive. Where did you get the Ventura installer?
I got the installer from the App Store.

I ran into a similar situation once before when my daughter-in-law loaned me her laptop with the caveat that I'd have to troubleshoot it before I could use it.

The machine inexplicably booted to a black screen, but I was able to option boot it and discovered that it was booting into an incomplete installation, which was resolved by rerunning the installer. Like I said, though, at least that machine option booted.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62728 10/29/22 05:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Moderator
OP Offline
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by artie505
(Aside: At the rate you go through Macs, you must have an endless supply of donees for the "old" ones.)
My only remaining Intel Mac, a late 2014 mini with a painfully slow Dual Core i7 processor, fell off the upgrade ladder with macOS 12.6.1.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62740 10/30/22 10:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Moderator
OP Offline
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
I just found this Ventura comment on the SoftRAID web site

Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.

That fits with my experience.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62741 10/30/22 10:45 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.
I think that could use some clarification.

Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62748 10/31/22 02:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Moderator
OP Offline
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.
I think that could use some clarification.

Thanks.

I took that to be a reference to everything in the OS relating to the organization, management, and storage of data on disk drives, SD cards, thumb drives, and other media. I find SoftRAID's comment particularly interesting because their product is more closely related to the "guts" of the system than even the various volume repair utilities. In fact, SoftRAID 7.0 has its own volume repair function that runs automatically when a volume error is detected. (Although for all I know, SoftRAID might be using Apple's own volume repair tool.)


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62752 11/01/22 08:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
That's quite a compliment, then.

Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62769 11/04/22 07:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
A more down to Earth impression of Ventura than joemike has heretofore given us...
  • The progress bar for the installation started out at 59 minutes, but the process took only 27.
  • Most important, my MBP's "hesitating" to process input, which has plagued me since I upgraded to Monterey, has been mostly cured. (*)
  • The extensions and legacy/unsigned apps I feared would stop working are all working as expected.
  • Systems Settings is confusing as all get-out at first, but begins to make sense after a while. The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there."
  • The Login Items pane has FINALLY been rendered in alphabetical order! Yay!
  • My Input Source menu bar icon which morphed from an American flag to a generic icon, back to a flag when I added a second source, to US in an ugly black box in Monterey, has become an A in an ugly black box.
  • For some reason that's incomprehensible to me, the background color of the graphs at the bottom of /Apps/Utilities/Activity Monitor > Energy has been changed from a pleasant light green to an unpleasant drab green. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At any rate, I'm a happy camper.

(*) I still get some hesitation, but I'm not certain that it's the same issue, and at any rate, it's very significantly less.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62771 11/05/22 08:40 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 6
Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 6
Originally Posted by artie505
The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there.
It seems to me that searching should not be necessary. Why can't the code writers/designers keep track of stuff they are moving and, once they are done, publish a list of "You used to find this item here, but now it's over there"? They could make things much easier.

Last edited by ryck; 11/05/22 08:43 AM.

ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS Mojave 10.14.6
Canon Pixma TR 8520 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 1TB LaCie USB-C
Carbon Copy Clone on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Re: It's Ventura Time
ryck #62772 11/05/22 09:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there.
It seems to me that searching should not be necessary. Why can't the code writers/designers keep track of stuff they are moving and, once they are done, publish a list of "You used to find this item here, but now it's over there"? They could make things much easier.
A graphic presentation would be easier to deal with than a list, but it would probably be equally ignored by users in favor of posting questions. tongue


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
1 member likes this: joemikeb
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62774 11/06/22 09:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by artie505
Most important, my MBP's "hesitating" to process input, which has plagued me since I upgraded to Monterey, has been mostly cured. (*)

(*) I still get some hesitation, but I'm not certain that it's the same issue, and at any rate, it's very significantly less.

Update: I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.

I'd love for it to be gone, but no, I haven't made any effort to troubleshoot it, because working in Safe Mode makes me crazy, and because any app that may be causing it would be more painful to lose than the relief I'd gain.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62777 11/06/22 11:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Moderator
OP Offline
Moderator

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
There have been numerous popups in Ventura requesting password entry, and I admit I too was annoyed until I realized it is Apple's way of mitigating the risk inherent in third-party apps that Apple has no opportunity to vet. The distinction between Apple applications, App Store and identified developer applications, and third-party applications has been significantly sharpened. Apps that have not been vetted must request access to each system resource they use and granting that access requires specific app-by-app and resource-by-resource permission which requires the user's password for verification as it is a System Settings change. Some developers recognizing this change will ask for all the needed permissions the first time the app is launched. Others either have not updated their app or have chosen to allow this to occur for each resource, which is very annoying. I may have become accustomed to the change, but I don’t notice it nearly as much now as I did back in July. I do know that I have learned to expect a new spate of user password entry any time I install a new app that needs access to any system resource, and occasionally after a Ventura update.

Originally Posted by artie505
I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.

I am curious, can you describe the hesitation?


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62780 11/07/22 11:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Online

Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by joemikeb
There have been numerous popups in Ventura requesting password entry....
I've run into any number of unexpected requests for my password. As you say, they're a nuisance, but I just shrug and deal with them as they come.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.
I am curious, can you describe the hesitation?
I hit a key, and there's a short but noticeable delay before my system reacts.

And it's universal throughout the OS's range of actions...typing, navigating throgh menus, opening and closing windows, launching and quitting apps, etc., etc., and so forth.

As I said, though, the delay is shorter in Ventura than it was in Monterey.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  alternaut, dkmarsh, joemikeb 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4
(Release build 20200307)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.4.25 Page Time: 0.030s Queries: 47 (0.021s) Memory: 0.6638 MB (Peak: 0.8020 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2022-11-29 07:36:29 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS