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Re: It's Ventura Time
freelance #62707 10/26/22 07:43 PM
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Jon

macOS 11.7.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: It's Ventura Time
jchuzi #62713 10/28/22 10:48 AM
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I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

And since I was experimenting, I decided to go the whole route and see if installing Ventura would turn a theoretically bootable, but actually non-bootable, clone bootable.

So, to make a long story short, after a seemingly endless succession of black screens, Apple logo screens, and screens with progression bars without time indicators, my MBP appeared to be getting ready to boot...when it kernel panicked...and kernel panicked a second time after it auto-restarted, at which point I threw in the towel.

I've dealt with failed installations before, but this was the first time I've ever (or in MANY years, at least) run into kernel panics, and just to be certain, I checked when I booted back into Monterey and found that the Ventura volume did, indeed, appear in System Prefs > Startup Disk.

Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62716 10/28/22 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

I use Canon printers, but all of my Canon printers support Apple Air Print, so no Canon-specific driver is required.

Originally Posted by artie505
Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

There is no requirement to have a full Ventura installation on the internal boot drive but, there is a hidden partition, iSCPreboot, that must be present on macs with Apple Silicon. It takes the place of the boot firmware on Intel Macs. Is it possible that it is also required on Intel Macs in Ventura? I no longer have an Intel Mac to experiment on.

Originally Posted by artie 505
Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.

Wow! I have never encountered anything resembling that, and I have both cloned and installed Ventura on an external volume, but then I have always started with a freshly erased target drive. Where did you get the Ventura installer?


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62722 10/29/22 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm not ready to upgrade to Ventura yet, but I decided to install it on my external SSD to take a look...in particular, to see if my printer will still work (Canon has since released a Ventura compatible driver! smile ) and which, if any, apps I'll lose.

I use Canon printers, but all of my Canon printers support Apple Air Print, so no Canon-specific driver is required.
My Canon is 9 1/2 years old, and only connects to my MBP via USB. It won't run through my AirPort Express Base Station, and when you instructed me how to use Bonjour, I couldn't get that to work either. (The printer was discontinued around three years ago, but its successor apparently runs the same software and Canon has kindly accommodated us "old timers" with the most recent drivers.)

Fun fact: After 9 1/2 years, I still haven't used up the original 700 page cartridge that came with the printer.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Is there a key fact that I overlooked? (It seems to me that I've read that Ventura can't be booted from an external drive unless it also exists on the internal drive.)

There is no requirement to have a full Ventura installation on the internal boot drive but, there is a hidden partition, iSCPreboot, that must be present on macs with Apple Silicon. It takes the place of the boot firmware on Intel Macs. Is it possible that it is also required on Intel Macs in Ventura? I no longer have an Intel Mac to experiment on.
Thanks. That's what I was thinking of. (Aside: At the rate you go through Macs, you must have an endless supply of donees for the "old" ones.)

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie 505
Aside: After the kernel panics, I was unable to escape from the installer, even after powering down and trying an option boot. I was able to escape only after pulling the plug on my external.

Wow! I have never encountered anything resembling that, and I have both cloned and installed Ventura on an external volume, but then I have always started with a freshly erased target drive. Where did you get the Ventura installer?
I got the installer from the App Store.

I ran into a similar situation once before when my daughter-in-law loaned me her laptop with the caveat that I'd have to troubleshoot it before I could use it.

The machine inexplicably booted to a black screen, but I was able to option boot it and discovered that it was booting into an incomplete installation, which was resolved by rerunning the installer. Like I said, though, at least that machine option booted.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62728 10/29/22 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
(Aside: At the rate you go through Macs, you must have an endless supply of donees for the "old" ones.)
My only remaining Intel Mac, a late 2014 mini with a painfully slow Dual Core i7 processor, fell off the upgrade ladder with macOS 12.6.1.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62740 10/30/22 10:34 PM
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I just found this Ventura comment on the SoftRAID web site

Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.

That fits with my experience.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62741 10/30/22 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.
I think that could use some clarification.

Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62748 10/31/22 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by SoftRAID
In our testing we can say that macOS 13, Ventura, has the most reliable storage software of any version of macOS that we have used.
I think that could use some clarification.

Thanks.

I took that to be a reference to everything in the OS relating to the organization, management, and storage of data on disk drives, SD cards, thumb drives, and other media. I find SoftRAID's comment particularly interesting because their product is more closely related to the "guts" of the system than even the various volume repair utilities. In fact, SoftRAID 7.0 has its own volume repair function that runs automatically when a volume error is detected. (Although for all I know, SoftRAID might be using Apple's own volume repair tool.)


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62752 11/01/22 08:56 AM
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That's quite a compliment, then.

Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62769 11/04/22 07:52 PM
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A more down to Earth impression of Ventura than joemike has heretofore given us...
  • The progress bar for the installation started out at 59 minutes, but the process took only 27.
  • Most important, my MBP's "hesitating" to process input, which has plagued me since I upgraded to Monterey, has been mostly cured. (*)
  • The extensions and legacy/unsigned apps I feared would stop working are all working as expected.
  • Systems Settings is confusing as all get-out at first, but begins to make sense after a while. The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there."
  • The Login Items pane has FINALLY been rendered in alphabetical order! Yay!
  • My Input Source menu bar icon which morphed from an American flag to a generic icon, back to a flag when I added a second source, to US in an ugly black box in Monterey, has become an A in an ugly black box.
  • For some reason that's incomprehensible to me, the background color of the graphs at the bottom of /Apps/Utilities/Activity Monitor > Energy has been changed from a pleasant light green to an unpleasant drab green. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At any rate, I'm a happy camper.

(*) I still get some hesitation, but I'm not certain that it's the same issue, and at any rate, it's very significantly less.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62771 11/05/22 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by artie505
The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there.
It seems to me that searching should not be necessary. Why can't the code writers/designers keep track of stuff they are moving and, once they are done, publish a list of "You used to find this item here, but now it's over there"? They could make things much easier.

Last edited by ryck; 11/05/22 08:43 AM.

ryck

"What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits" The Doobie Brothers

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020), 3.8 GHz 8 Core Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, 2667 MHz DDR4
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Re: It's Ventura Time
ryck #62772 11/05/22 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
The hardest part of the learning curve arises from relocated items, which force you to search for stuff that used to be "right there.
It seems to me that searching should not be necessary. Why can't the code writers/designers keep track of stuff they are moving and, once they are done, publish a list of "You used to find this item here, but now it's over there"? They could make things much easier.
A graphic presentation would be easier to deal with than a list, but it would probably be equally ignored by users in favor of posting questions. tongue


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62774 11/06/22 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Most important, my MBP's "hesitating" to process input, which has plagued me since I upgraded to Monterey, has been mostly cured. (*)

(*) I still get some hesitation, but I'm not certain that it's the same issue, and at any rate, it's very significantly less.

Update: I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.

I'd love for it to be gone, but no, I haven't made any effort to troubleshoot it, because working in Safe Mode makes me crazy, and because any app that may be causing it would be more painful to lose than the relief I'd gain.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62777 11/06/22 11:23 PM
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There have been numerous popups in Ventura requesting password entry, and I admit I too was annoyed until I realized it is Apple's way of mitigating the risk inherent in third-party apps that Apple has no opportunity to vet. The distinction between Apple applications, App Store and identified developer applications, and third-party applications has been significantly sharpened. Apps that have not been vetted must request access to each system resource they use and granting that access requires specific app-by-app and resource-by-resource permission which requires the user's password for verification as it is a System Settings change. Some developers recognizing this change will ask for all the needed permissions the first time the app is launched. Others either have not updated their app or have chosen to allow this to occur for each resource, which is very annoying. I may have become accustomed to the change, but I don’t notice it nearly as much now as I did back in July. I do know that I have learned to expect a new spate of user password entry any time I install a new app that needs access to any system resource, and occasionally after a Ventura update.

Originally Posted by artie505
I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.

I am curious, can you describe the hesitation?


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62780 11/07/22 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
There have been numerous popups in Ventura requesting password entry....
I've run into any number of unexpected requests for my password. As you say, they're a nuisance, but I just shrug and deal with them as they come.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm still experiencing the hesitation, but it occurs less frequently and is less pronounced that it was in Monterey.
I am curious, can you describe the hesitation?
I hit a key, and there's a short but noticeable delay before my system reacts.

And it's universal throughout the OS's range of actions...typing, navigating throgh menus, opening and closing windows, launching and quitting apps, etc., etc., and so forth.

As I said, though, the delay is shorter in Ventura than it was in Monterey.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62939 12/07/22 07:22 PM
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Here's an unwelcome change in Ventura: How to shut down & start up automatically in macOS Ventura. Why did Apple do this? It looks like a royal PITA.


Jon

macOS 11.7.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: It's Ventura Time
jchuzi #62944 12/08/22 12:03 AM
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The entire boot process, and where it is initiated has changed radically because of security issues and because of hardware changes associated with Apple silicon. The old process simply cannot work any longer and the new process is unfortunately rather baroque. As far as the weekly shut down and restart go, except a few beta related glitches, in the last four of five years, my systems are never rebooted except to install the monthly(?) beta update or once when we had an extended power outage.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
jchuzi #62953 12/09/22 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jchuzi
Here's an unwelcome change in Ventura: How to shut down & start up automatically in macOS Ventura. Why did Apple do this? It looks like a royal PITA.

I just installed the latest update of Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 8.1 and under System Settings I found this. It appears, Marcel has solved your PITA. I haven't had time to test it yet, but it seems an elegant solution to your need.

NOTE: that is the commercial TinkerTool System not the freeware TinkerTool.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62954 12/09/22 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
I just installed the latest update of Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 8.1
Your link points to TinkerTool 9.0, and according to the TTSystem website, its lates version is 7.93??? confused

Update: Just found the paid upgrade to 8. Dunno why I wasn't offered it.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62955 12/10/22 03:13 AM
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My version came from running the newly updated Bresink Software Updater? Obviously I was not as observant as I should have been, when I captured that URL. TinkerTool System is at 8.1. For what it is worth, I think Marcel is relying more on his software updater app than in-app announcments.

Last edited by joemikeb; 12/10/22 03:23 AM.

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62956 12/10/22 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by jchuzi
Here's an unwelcome change in Ventura: How to shut down & start up automatically in macOS Ventura. Why did Apple do this? It looks like a royal PITA.

I just installed the latest update of Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 8.1 and under System Settings I found this. It appears, Marcel has solved your PITA. I haven't had time to test it yet, but it seems an elegant solution to your need.

NOTE: that is the commercial TinkerTool System not the freeware TinkerTool.
Thanks for that, Joe. I can't use Ventura with my system but it's good to know about the TTS workaround when I do. I have had TTS for many years but Ventura will be the first time that I use it.


Jon

macOS 11.7.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62957 12/10/22 08:45 PM
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One minor annoyance in Ventura has been the disappearance of the option to hide login items. (For security purposes all login items appear on the desktop when launched, so the user knows they are there and running.) While I was looking at Marcel Bresink's latest offerings I discovered an only available from the app store app called Autostarter that for 99¢ allows login items to be hidden on launch and restores both the ability to control the order in which they launch. Those apps that self-insert themselves into login items have to be manually removed from System Settings > General > login items and entered on the list of Autostarter apps, but, for myself, I am glad that I can once again hide login items.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: It's Ventura Time
joemikeb #62962 12/11/22 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
One minor annoyance in Ventura has been the disappearance of the option to hide login items. (For security purposes all login items appear on the desktop when launched, so the user knows they are there and running.) While I was looking at Marcel Bresink's latest offerings I discovered an only available from the app store app called Autostarter that for 99¢ allows login items to be hidden on launch and restores both the ability to control the order in which they launch. Those apps that self-insert themselves into login items have to be manually removed from System Settings > General > login items and entered on the list of Autostarter apps, but, for myself, I am glad that I can once again hide login items.
I was so happy to see that my login items are now in alpha order - as I've craved since Apple removed our ability to re-order them - that I never realized the check boxes have been removed. For what it's worth, though, my items that were set to hide on launch in Big Sur still do not appear on my desktop after a restart in Monterrey.

As for "the ability to control the order in which [login items] launch," I haven't tried to take advantage of that feature in MANY years...MANY OS versions, but it never worked when I tried.

Thanks for the Autostarter link.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62973 12/14/22 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by artie505
For what it's worth, though, my items that were set to hide on launch in Big Sur still do not appear on my desktop after a restart in Monterrey.Thanks for the Autostarter link.
First, correction: Big Sur & Monterrey s/b Monterrey&Ventura.

Well, so much for that! I just updated to Ventura 13.1, and my previously hidden login items weren't hidden when my MBP restarted.

Even more thanks for the Autostarter link. tongue


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: It's Ventura Time
artie505 #62975 12/14/22 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Well, so much for that! I just updated to Ventura 13.1, and my previously hidden login items weren't hidden when my MBP restarted.

Even more thanks for the Autostarter link. tongue

I find Autostarter a pleasure to use.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
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