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I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
#61794 06/17/22 06:57 PM
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kevs Offline OP
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Confused. I have new M1 laptop. I think came with 250 SSD, and already says only 65 GB abailable? Don't get it. 64gb of 245 gb available.

apps 40 gb
music creation 3gb -- don't get that, not making music on laptop
Mac os 15 gb ok
system dadta 33gb ok

documents 2gb - not sure, don't make documents, mostly for email / internet.

I cloud drive 82 GB.. This icloud drive, in cloud, wtf? is this part of why the mac hd on new laptop say filling up? Confused. thanks.

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61796 06/17/22 07:42 PM
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Assuming your new laptop (am I correct in guessing it is a MacBook Air?) came with Monterey that is normal. Monterey, and Big Sur for that matter, keeps a LOT of disposable, and often invisible files on the boot volume such as periodic snapshots of the system, and any number of temporary cache files. The OS manages this carefully and deletes these files as needed. Add to that the fact that a 250 GB SSD is a minimum sized drive and can fill up very quickly. There are a number of apps on the App Store such as Daisy Disk and Disk Map Analyzer that will happily clear out all of the detritus, but I was always disappointed with how little disk space they actually recovered, and I am saying that from the perspective of previously having a 500GB SSD. (I went up to a TeraByte drive on my new Studio.)


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

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Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61798 06/17/22 08:32 PM
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Thanks Joe look:

I wish had gotten that now but look 80 GB is icloud drive, so that was my question:

https://imgur.com/a/nm46H13

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61800 06/17/22 09:25 PM
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SOLUTION:

If you don't want to see storage on the iCloud drive at all, go to Finder > Preferences > Sidebar and
  • under iCloud UNcheck iCloud Drive and Shared
  • under Locations Uncheck iCloud Storage


EXPLANATION:

What you are seeing is, the current amount of data stored on your iCloud Drive, but that does NOT occupy any space on your local HD/SSD. It is prompting you to go to System Preferences > Apple ID > iCloud Drive > Options and enable "Desktop & Documents Folders". That mirrors your Desktop & Documents folders on your iCloud drive and the local HD/SSD (in which case the mirrored data is occupying space in both locations). Then if your local HD/SSD becomes too full the OS will automatically search your desktop and documents folders for files that are "least recently used" and delete them from your local HD/SSD. You always work from the copy of the file on your local HD/SSD. However, if it is an old file the system deleted to make room on the local drive you might notice a slight delay while the file is downloaded to your local HD/SSD and if you are very alert when you save a file, you might notice a small upload symbol on the file icon while it is being copied to iCloud, but otherwise, the entire process is totally transparent to the user.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61803 06/18/22 12:15 AM
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kevs Offline OP
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Did not understand that JOe, too complex for a forum probably, but I'm going into Genius bar tomorrow for all things, Magic Keyboard, which I love and was great recommendation by you.

One of my 2 keyboards Magic if believe it, when type certain keys, two letters get typed come up instead of the one you typed, Bizarre. Only happens on this one magic keyboard, so see what they'll say.

I'll print out what you just wrote on icloud issue too, and see if they can flesh that out... I think I get the gist of it --- whats also weird is icloud storage says 80gb being used when on laptop, but on imac says only 29 being used, and when go inside icloud storage, about 30 folders and only a few of them have more than a gig or two.. I don't even see 29GB being used, looks more like 5-10gb.

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61838 06/20/22 03:09 PM
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I am not trying to spend your money on new software utilities, but to get a more complete picture of what is actually on Macintosh HD and who/what is using it, you need an application like Daisy Disk, Disk Map Analyzer, or Grand Perspective.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61842 06/20/22 04:34 PM
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kevs Offline OP
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Thanks joe will check those out, Is one favorite?

Apple store, guy - genius bar- was not too knowledgeable, so I may do a call with Apple soon, and screen shares to explain, but he did say icloud, is not same as icloud drive. Boy is that confusing! They could name those things differently?

I do not want to share desktop with laptop/ imac.

That said is he right? Not same thing...

For now final question on this: :... if that 82 GB on my new 245 SSD hardrive is not being used; (which it is not. but they are implying it coule be used?... confused.. don't even think I used this, "icloud drive'"..Then why is the "about, storage" graphy, saying only 65 GB left on the hard drive? (flaw/ glitch with Apple then telling you that.. not accurate for sure)

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61851 06/20/22 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kevs
Thanks joe will check those out, Is one favorite?
I am currently using Disk Map Analyzer, but I believe Artie prefers Grand Perspective. The choice is which way of displaying the data works best for you.

Originally Posted by keys
Apple store, guy - genius bar- was not too knowledgeable, so I may do a call with Apple soon, and screen shares to explain, but he did say icloud, is not same as icloud drive. Boy is that confusing! They could name those things differently?
They did: iCLoud and iCloud Drive grin To be completely accurate the sharing item under iCloud in the sidebar contains iCloud folders you have shared with or other users and counts against your total iCloud usage and folders other iCLoud users have shared with you and do not count against your total iCloud usage.

Originally Posted by keys
I do not want to share desktop with laptop/ imac.
You don't have to but there are distinct advantages to sharing and corresponding disadvantages to not sharing. What are you hoping to accomplish or avoid by not sharing?

Originally Posted by keys
That said is he right? Not same thing...
He is absolutely right but... there is some overlap.

Originally Posted by keys
For now final question on this: :... if that 82 GB on my new 245 SSD hardrive is not being used; (which it is not. but they are implying it coule be used?... confused.. don't even think I used this, "icloud drive'"..Then why is the "about, storage" graphy, saying only 65 GB left on the hard drive? (flaw/ glitch with Apple then telling you that.. not accurate for sure)
It is confusing and why I think another app might help clarify the issue for you, but in both Big Sur and Monterey the OS keeps a lot of temporary files on the boot drive to make its operation more efficient. If you add files, apps, etc. that reduce the space available the OS will reduce the number and size of those temporary files -- which to some extent reduces efficiency. So both numbers are accurate, one includes the temporary files and the other does not. If the iCloud item in the Finder sidebar bothers or confuses you go to Finder > Preferences > Sidebar and UNcheck the item labeled iCloud Drive (and you might also include Shared which is another topic altogether but relates to data on iCloud) then under Locations UNcheck Cloud Storage.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61858 06/20/22 10:38 PM
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Oh, yes ok icloud drive is folder I click on all time in sidebar, both imac and laptop... stuff in cloud, and maybe taking 30 GB ; but why this counts against hardrive? Why? it's in the cloud???

Dont get icloud vs icloud drive, and still don't get then why laptop says 80gb is being used. Totally lost on that.

What I like on my HUGE 27 " desktop is not what want on much smaller, laptop.

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61864 06/20/22 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
I am currently using Disk Map Analyzer, but I believe Artie prefers Grand Perspective. The choice is which way of displaying the data works best for you.
I couldn't find this post, so I just responded to that in kevs's "2 new Lacie external..." thread.

I've never heard of Disk Map Analyzer. I'll give it a look-see.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
artie505 #61871 06/21/22 02:15 AM
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I just took a look at Disk Map Analyzer - available only from the App Store and currently on sale for $5.99 - but it doesn't appear to offer a trial period. Have I missed something?

Also, since I'm already running GrandPerspective and DaisyDisk, does DMA's "cleaning" functionality offer anything additional that I really need?

Thanks.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
artie505 #61874 06/21/22 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I just took a look at Disk Map Analyzer - available only from the App Store and currently on sale for $5.99 - but it doesn't appear to offer a trial period. Have I missed something?

The last time I looked DMA was not available from the app store and was only available from the publisher Pocket Bits. However when I went to their website today and clicked on download it took me to the DMA entry on the App Store. Apparently, Pocket Bits is changing its marketing strategy.

Originally Posted by artie505
Also, since I'm already running GrandPerspective and DaisyDisk, does DMA's "cleaning" functionality offer anything additional that I really need?

Other than a different display of the data, probably not. -- but that is a matter of personal preference and your mileage obviously varies. I did not choose Disk Map Analyzer over Daisy Disk because of superior functionality or the data display type (both display their information virtually the same way), but because I preferred the Looke & Feel of the GUI. The Disk Cleaner function replicates a functionally identical tool in Daisy disk as well. I can't comment on Grand Perspective other than to say I am mildly dyslectic and its data display drove me to distraction so I never really tested its functionality.

NOTE: the Disk Clean function in all of these utilities is NOT an [i]App Cleaner/Remover[/b] but Pocket Bits does have an App Remover utility. As far as I can tell, it is no better or any worse than any of the other myriad of such tools on the app store. I have yet to find one capable of identifying the UUID (Universally Unique IDentifier) file names used in some apps.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

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Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61888 06/22/22 11:01 AM
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Thanks for the insights into Disk Map Analyzer .

GrandPerspective is considerably less functional than DMA and DaisyDisk. It's able to delete stuff, and if there's something new, big, and unknown on your drive it'll stick out like a sore thumb, but that's where it ends.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
artie505 #61891 06/22/22 03:21 PM
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Artie, what missing about Daisy Disc? It seems default About Mac, storage is a simpler, nicer interface? Am I missing something?

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61896 06/22/22 05:25 PM
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Daisy Disk is $10, Grand Perspective is free from the developer, otherwise it is a matter of personal taste.

Personally, I use Grand Perspective to find the files I want to delete (their location on the drive is shown) and if it is an application, I use a separate app deleter to delete it. This assures that the supporting files, which can be as much or more than the application, will also be deleted.


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, 27" iMac, Macbook Air, macOS 10.15.x and MacOS 12; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
Ira L #61899 06/22/22 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ira L
Personally, I use Grand Perspective to find the files I want to delete (their location on the drive is shown)....
How on Earth do you find specific files with GP?

Granted that its results are presented in groupings, but how do you find specific files within those groupings, i.e., is there something I've missed?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61901 06/22/22 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kevs
Oh, yes ok icloud drive is folder I click on all time in sidebar, both imac and laptop... stuff in cloud, and maybe taking 30 GB ; but why this counts against hardrive? Why? it's in the cloud???

Dont get icloud vs icloud drive, and still don't get then why laptop says 80gb is being used. Totally lost on that.

In another thread I commended the Eclectic Light Company to you as a source of information on M1/M2 Macs and mentioned they had some interesting utilities available. Among those utilities is one called Cirrus that specifically targets the situation you are attempting to grok. Cirrus is a free download here. If nothing else its help file clearly outlines the possibilities.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
artie505 #61910 06/23/22 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by Ira L
Personally, I use Grand Perspective to find the files I want to delete (their location on the drive is shown)....
How on Earth do you find specific files with GP?

Granted that its results are presented in groupings, but how do you find specific files within those groupings, i.e., is there something I've missed?

Each rectangle in GrandPerspective is an individual something. Admittedly some rectangles/squares are very tiny, but moving the cursor over any of them reveals the path (shown at the bottom of the GP window). If you click on any of them the arrow cursors can then be used to move you around. I was able to pinpoint an individual photo in Photos just to give you an idea of specificity.

I would not use GrandPerspective to locate a file I was looking for in advance; there are better tools for that. But if you are looking for large "things" in general, they can be selected/highlighted even within groupings. My comment "to find the files I want to delete…" may have been misleading. The files I want to delete are probably the large ones GP comes up with, not something I had in mind beforehand.


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, 27" iMac, Macbook Air, macOS 10.15.x and MacOS 12; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
Ira L #61917 06/24/22 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ira L
I would not use GrandPerspective to locate a file I was looking for in advance; there are better tools for that. But if you are looking for large "things" in general, they can be selected/highlighted even within groupings. My comment "to find the files I want to delete…" may have been misleading. The files I want to delete are probably the large ones GP comes up with, not something I had in mind beforehand.
Thanks for the clarification.

So, you use GP the same way I do...to see if there are any new extraneous items on your drive that are large enough to stand out.

As you've said, you can find anything you're looking for with enough effort, but considering the better tools that are available, it's totally wasted effort.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61921 06/24/22 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by kevs
Artie, what missing about Daisy Disc? It seems default About Mac, storage is a simpler, nicer interface? Am I missing something?

This thread got a little diverted from Key's original question. So to get back to his question, I am going to attempt to answer this particular question.

What I think you are missing is About This Mac > Storage provides the same data in text form that Daisy Disk, Grand Perspective, and Disk Map Analyzer presents graphically. In fact, About This Mac > Storage does something the other three do not offer, which is an alternate interface to System Preferences > Apple ID > iCloud Drive > Options and monitors Storage optimization and automatic trash emptying. All of these apps have a reduce clutter function. It probably should be noted that much of this functionality is new to about This Mac > Storage and got accustomed to the third-party apps before it was available in About This Mac.... To be honest, I was unaware of the enhanced functionality in about This Mac > Storage until you brought it up.

Back to your original question of iCloud Drive taking space on your internal boot drive, when you have Documents and Desktop stored in iCloud a mirrored copy of as many of those files as possible are kept on your internal boot drive to speed access to the data in the files, so the files occupy space on your internal drive and your iCloud drive. When your internal drive gets too full, the least recently accessed files on the internal drive are deleted to make room on that drive for more files, but a link to the file on iCloud is stored in the file directory and the only functional difference you might see is the file might take a little more time to load. So, all the files in your Documents folder will occupy space on your internal drive AND iCloud drive until your internal drive runs out of space, at which point some files will exist only on iCloud but will remain accessible as if they were on your internal drive. The duplicate files are stored on iCloud in two folders, cleverly labeled Desktop and Documents. Both are exact mirrors of the folders in your user account.

NOTE: You can edit the copy of a file on iCloud, and its replicant on your internal drive will change as well.


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Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61922 06/25/22 01:17 AM
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Thanks Joe:

" I was unaware of the enhanced functionality in about This Mac > Storage until you brought it up."

Well do you think is basically as good as Disk Map Analyzer? Or better, cleaner?

On icloud storage, dang apple rep just told me does not take space on my limited macbook air.. oh well... I'm keeping it very limited so far.. to 25G or so, but drive only 245, so have to watch out..

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61923 06/25/22 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kevs
Thanks Joe:

" I was unaware of the enhanced functionality in about This Mac > Storage until you brought it up."

Well do you think is basically as good as Disk Map Analyzer? Or better, cleaner?

On icloud storage, dang apple rep just told me does not take space on my limited macbook air.. oh well... I'm keeping it very limited so far.. to 25G or so, but drive only 245, so have to watch out..
Sorry, kevs, I intended to respond to your question that joemike just answered, but I lost track of it, so I'll pick up the ball now...

About This Mac > Storage is nowhere near as functional as DD, DMA, or GP, because unlike the 3rd party apps it's a hunt and peck solution rather than a visual presentation.

Since the primary purpose of these apps is to find a mysterious item that's so large that it stands out, you're far more likely to be successful searching one of these presentations than poking around About This Mac > Storage. (DD is on top, GP on the bottom.)

I note that the three solutions I've dealt with return differing results, but I can't determine the exact nature of the differences. DD looks to be the most complete presentation, and ATM>S the least, though.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
artie505 #61926 06/25/22 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by keys
On icloud storage, dang apple rep just told me does not take space on my limited macbook air.. oh well... I'm keeping it very limited so far.. to 25G or so, but drive only 245, so have to watch out..

If you have System Preferences > Apple ID > iCloud Drive > Options > Desktop & Documents folder checked, and you run short of storage on your local drive, the oldest files in those folders will be removed from your local drive and a pointer to that file on the iCloud Drive substituted. So unless you check storage statistics very closely, you will never be aware that some files no longer exists locally but is automatically available from the iCloud Drive. If this double counting really bothers you, just save your files directly to the iCloud Drive, and they will never appear on your local drive.

Originally Posted by artie505
About This Mac > Storage is nowhere near as functional as DD, DMA, or GP, because unlike the 3rd party apps it's a hunt and peck solution rather than a visual presentation.

Since the primary purpose of these apps is to find a mysterious item that's so large that it stands out, you're far more likely to be successful searching one of these presentations than poking around About This Mac > Storage. (DD is on top, GP on the bottom.)

I note that the three solutions I've dealt with return differing results, but I can't determine the exact nature of the differences. DD looks to be the most complete presentation, and ATM>S the least, though.

I concur with Artie's assessment 100%, and I would add that focusing entirely on the larger files can easily lead to undesired consequences. For most of us, the largest single data files on our systems are the Music Library and Photos Library, and that is assuming those files are optimized for storage on our Mac. Deleting those files would free up a lot of disk space, but do you really want to delete all your tunes and photos? Additionally, About This Mac > Storage only provides a detailed breakdown on the boot drive while DD, DMA, & GP work on any drive on your system and even better can target specific folders for scanning. My one complaint with DMA is it offers to scan too many entities, including hidden system volumes and APFS Snapshots.

If a graphic display does not work for you, and you have no external drives to consider, stick with About This Mac > Storage, but be aware of its limitations and dangers.


"Sacred cows make the best hamburger"

- Mark Twain
Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
joemikeb #61933 06/26/22 12:51 AM
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Thanks guys,

JOe.... I find GP not so nice, weird...

Daisy Disc, better, but you like DMA more? I should look at that too?.... or about same?

Know an app called What Size?... I used that but out of business, was good. Still only used it once every year or two.

Ok analyzing:

22GB on desktop Data external in Application Support -- How would I know what to delete in application support?

Caches 12 GB, always safe good to delete all every... year?

Containers 8 gB same question.

Trial 2GB what is Trial?

Group Containers 2GB have no idea what that is.

Logs, 2gb safe to delete always right?

Re: I cloud drive counts again HD storage limit?
kevs #61938 06/26/22 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kevs
JOe.... I find GP not so nice, weird...

Daisy Disc, better, but you like DMA more? I should look at that too?.... or about same?

Know an app called What Size?... I used that but out of business, was good. Still only used it once every year or two.

All I can say about DD compared to DMA is they both use the same way of displaying data, and once you understand how that display works it is very informative and can get down to exquisite detail. DMA sees and analyzes APFS data structures and hidden volumes that DD either does not see or hides. (I wish that was optional and I have contacted DMA developer who has promised to consider my request in the next release.) DMA's Disk Cleaner tool is basic but does a decent job although I have reservations about large files deletion.

Originally Posted by keys
Ok analyzing:

22GB on desktop Data external in Application Support -- How would I know what to delete in application support?

Application support and don't forget Preferences, Caches, Saved Application State, and probably half a hundred other locations where apps may park various support files? There are more than 60 app uninstaller/disk cleaner apps in the macOS app store not to mention several more generalized apps that have app uninstaller functions, as far as I know they all use the same technique of searching for files and folders whose name contains the application or developer's name. That will get the vast majority of files associated with most apps. However, that will not get files with UUID file names or other non app related filenames. Those are immune even to general purpose search tools such as Find Any File and EasyFind favored by some of us on FineTunedMac. So, what to do...
  • App Store Apps are required to be sandboxed or encapsulate so that all of its support files are contained within the application itself. The only approved way of deleting an App Store application is to open Launchpad, click and hold on the Application icon in Launchpad until the icon begins to shake and a minus sign ( - ) appears in the upper-left corner of the icon, then click on the minus sign. That should delete all of that application's support files along with the application, but will leave any data files created by the application untouched.
  • Non-App Store Apps are often not sandboxed and have support files all over the boot drive. For the less technically oriented user, I would advise using one of the app uninstaller applications such as App Uninstaller or a general purpose utility with an uninstaller function like TinkerTool System that will find and remove at the Application and probably more than 97% of the support files.
  • If you were technically minded and a bit obsessive/compulsive you might prefer Find Any File or EasyFind, but that still leaves files with UUID names.


Originally Posted by keys
Caches 12 GB, always safe good to delete all every... year?

Even two, three, or more times a day would be safe. Those caches will be rebuilt the first time you launch the app that created them, and rebuilding will slow the launch slightly. Any gain from deleting them is ephemeral.

Originally Posted by keys
Containers 8 gB same question.

Same answer. If you don't want the container, don't use the application.

Originally Posted by keys
Trial 2GB what is Trial?

I don't know for sure, but the rumor is it is a development artifact Apple left in place as a temporary fix. I would leave it for now.

Originally Posted by keys
Group Containers 2GB have no idea what that is.

Same thing as Containers but for multiple apps

Originally Posted by keys
Logs, 2gb safe to delete always right?

Other than the fact those logs can be esssential to diagnosing problems, yes.

All told, you are only freeing up 10% of the total capacity of your SSD. If you are that crowded for space, I recommend three possible options:
  1. ignore the situation and let macOS offload seldom used data files to the iCloud Drive on its own
  2. Save your data files directly to folders on your iCloud Drive, so they do not occupy permanent space on the local drive
  3. getting a Thunderbolt connected 1 TB SSD and moving your home folder to it


Personally, I do some of all three. I don't worry and seldom look at the available space on the local SSD because I have 1.85 TB of unused space on the iCloud Drive that the Desktop and Documents folders can overflow into if the local drive gets crowded. Files created on my iPhone or iPad are only stored on the iCloud Drive, but can be accessed and edited on my Mac as well. Finally, I have an external 2 TB Thunderbolt SSD where I store my DEVONThink database (containing the bulk of my working files and archived data), My Music and Photos, and archived software downloads ie. my biggest files. For data reliability, the internal drive and External data SSD are covered by Time Machine and Apple backs up the iCloud Drive. The problem with iCloudonly storage is there is no versioning capability as found in Time Machine, and it is dependent on a functioning internet connection. However, Desktop & Documents files automatically rolled to iCloud to make room on the local drive are backed up in Time Machine and can be restored just as any other file.


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