Home Forums Networks & Cross-Platform Networking Bank Hard Drive replace less?

I'm thinking every 5 years replace spinning hard drives even if seem to still be working ok.

But one in bank, security deposit, not spinning, justs comes into house every 4 months to get backup up.

Would one replace this is too every 5 years, or maybe that one you'd keep 10 years? Thanks.

Thre are a lot of factors impacting the useful lifespan of a hard drive and calendar age or time in use is relatively low on that list. Rather than replace any drive solely because of its calendar age, I would run diagnostics on the drive every time you bring it into the house for backup and keep it as long as it passes diagnostics. The same is true of the drives you use every day. A drive can easily outlast the technology before failing or it could fail within minutes of being powered up the first time. The failure rate is a standard distribution and the published MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is just that and no more. DriveDX, Drive Scope, and TechTool Pro all perform a thorough analysis of the S.M.A.R.T. values of hard drives and NVME statistics on SSDs, even those connected via technologies like USB that theoretically do not support S.M.A.R.T., to provide adequate warning of impending drive failure to keep your data safe. Within a few days of installing DriveDX on it flagged one of my HDs (a 3-year-old industrial grade Seagate) as an impending failure. It never actually failed but I had plenty of time to find and install a replacement drive in the same enclosure. FWIW, I have DriveDX set to routinely check the S.M.A.R.T. or NVME values on each of my drives every 4 hours and report immediately if the health of a drive falls below my preset comfort level. (I initially set it to send me a summary report every 48 hours, but the report was boring and I don't need any more email, so I canceled that.)

Thanks Joe, I don't have tech tool, or what other one famous, checked hard drives? Used to have for years.. oh Disc Warrior.

I only have Apples First aid in DU.

I was not being diligent ever in checking, but last week, after this weird constant ejecting of drives and crashing the hub and keyboard bluetooth. I checked.

My time machine first aid, never succeeded. Did not fail, but did not succeed, just kept going on and on. The other drive did fail. Got red alert failed. (those all 5 tB external Seagates - 6 years old)

Would you keep either of those -- one passed first aid, other did not pass but did not file kept churing away, oh and the one that failed or one not finish, could erase and then pass...? Both 6 years old. Keep?

Anyway sales rep BH photo, (and also one Apple senior tech few months ago) said to replace all spinning drives every 5-6 years.

I stick by my previous recommendation, but if you are unwilling to invest $20 in DriveDX to possibly save the cost of new drives as well monitor to detect potential failures. Given your recent history, I would have replaced those drives long ago and I would still want to be running DriveDX or similar.

Ok Joe thanks, will be getting that Drive DX.

I guess run it every couple months is good schedule? (better than doing nothing as been done last 5 years) For some reason I think I read years ago, you don't need to check drives unless there is a reason to... Remember disc warrior/ Tech Tool pro, always on hand one or or both, that was 10 years ago--also the defragmenting issue was solved I think... But I thought last 5 years were maintenance free. Why would have you bailed on the drives I've had 6 years years ago, if they been fine up to now?

And good news this Drive DX is only $20, those other aforementioned products I think veered toward $100 at the time.

I have DriveDX set to run every four hours. It does not scan the drives per se, it simply reads the S.M.A.R.T. or NVME data stored in registers on the drive and analyzes the results. Properly analyzed the S.M.A.R.T. and NVME trends are the most reliable predictor of impending drive failure and those values include and improve on the same information that you would look for in a full scan of the drive that could take hours on a big drive. DriveDX's entire process takes a few seconds at most and has no discernable impact on system performance. You can set the checking interval and specify the actions to take if there is problem detected. I forget it is running until it warns me of an impending failure. Just install it, set your preferences, and forget it until a warning arises.

Defragmentation still can improve the performance of an HD formatted HFS+, but APFS is intentionally fragmented and arguably have a deleterious effect on the lifespan of SSDs. Add to that for years macOS has quietly been doing its own optimization in the background. That leaves volume repair and not only has Disk Utility improved on its ability to do volume repairs they have become so infrequent that many no longer bother to keep the various repair facilities up-to-date and unless they are up-to-date they can actually do more harm than good.


They are looking at $100 in their rear-view mirror today.

Joe thanks, will do your strategy:

1-- Why say you would have gotten rid of my drives long time ago? ONes getting rid of now: Seagate 5 tBs?
2- I DX spot problem then you repair or even erase, then ok! .. but at what point to you know then to replace the drive? ... if keep repairing and then ok/ usable

In the specific set of circumstances that you did nit have the tools to adequately measure the relative health of the drive and you had encountered several problems some inexplicable, I would have quickly replaced the drive irregardless of its age. Given you have, or are getting, DriveDX or similar and the drive passes the test there would be no substantive r3ason to replace it.


If the S.M.A.R.T. Values and their trend indicate the probability of failure then replace it, even if it is only hours old. If the volume structure is frequently getting damaged and needs repair, you need to trouble-shoot that as an issue as it may be separate from the drive or enclosure. I have drives that have run years without needing any volume or file repairs.

JOe thanks, great ok, so for 1-2 old Seagate I have, that test ok... or for new drives just got:

If passes a test... (right now just using test of DUs first aid.) ie if green check passed.. and .. what test that passes with new software? DX there a definitive, yes passed.

If a couple of my older drives pass test..... then you would keep them even in 5 , years old, 10 years old 12 years old? There is no random cut off date even if spinning drive?

One apple rep and BH rep said with spinning drive cause spinning and so fragile to wear they would replace every 5-6 years regardless, I think many subscribe to that.

They would not say that necessarily with SSD, or even CF flash card I use for photography (some of those flash cards I've been using for 15 years plus).. I don't even test them ever, just if images coming up fine camera assuming fine... (they say that with Spinning disc drives)

Disk Utility only looks at a single composite S.M.A.R.T. value and is a good indicator that the drive has already failed. DriveDX looks at all the various S.M.A.R.T. values and attempts to predict drive failure before it actually happens. the user can specify how close to failing the drive has to be before it throws up a warning notification.


I have some drives that are still functional and over 10 years old, but I never use them because they are too small and too slow by today's standards to be useful in my current system. Every once in a while I dig through the stack and discard one or two to recover some space in my junk drawer. Given the rate of advancement in computer technology a five-year-old drive is antiquated and as far as Apple is concerned a seven-year-old drive is, by corporate policy, obsolete. Your five-year-old drive is using ten-year-old technology at best, but that technology level is cheap, reliable, and fast enough to perform more than adequately as a Time Machine drive. The Seagates you are proposing as replacements are using [b[the exact same obsolete technology[/b]. If there is no indication of impending or actual failure, why spend the money replacing your old drives with the same antique technology if the old ones are still good and show no signs of impending failure?

As far as the Apple and BH rep's opinion, just remember they are in the business of selling new drives and that impacts their opinion.


They or I would not say that of CF flash cards, SD cards, or thumb drives. You may still be using the flashcards after 15 years without a problem but all magnetic media, such as floppy disks, magnetic tape, HDs, CF Flashcards, and SD cards, are ill-suited to long-term data storage because the magnetic "image" degrades with time, unless periodically refreshed/rewritten. Thumb drives and SSDs both use non-magnetic solid-state media but thumb drives are much slower and are more subject to data loss. Arguably the best archival data storage currently available is LTO-8 magnetic tape ($5379.00 for 4TB capacity), but as far as I know, it is not compatible with Time Machine.

My crystal ball is notoriously cloudy, but assuming drive prices can be reduced by at least an order of magnitude LTO devices with LTFS could be the Time Machine storage media of the future.

Thanks Joe, the new Lacie d2, just got are not old technology right as C, usb made for the new imacs...? 7400 rpm vs 5400... Bit faster..

Never use CF cards for storage, just do shoot and then reformat.

Anyway, all this info helps with those spinning drives, thanks.

Other than the type C connector the drives themselves are still antique technology if not obsolete. That does not make it unsuitable for service as a Time Machine drive, in fact,it is highly suitable for the purpose. Yes 7500 rpm will be faster but you are unlikely to notice the difference in day-to-day use.

I don't get how these are anique Jos.. the d2 are on C (not A which I have), and fater speed 7400, most are 5400.... I agree, would I notice. But .... oh you are comparing to SSD?

I guess one final question Joe: maybe .. right BH, apple bias... the 2016 Seagates, have 4 one 8tB for TM... that one did not fail, but did not succeed, in DU -- still working though.... one 5TB failed, got red alert, can read it but could not save.
Other 5 TB home was for back up fine... One bank not tested, (rarely used) I would assume fine.

If these new d2 are not huge speed bump.. would you just erase the two that had issues, and if test ok with Drive Dx, keep using..? I could return all 3 of new d2 and get $600 back.....?

If I read joemikeb's comments correctly, spinning metal platter-based hard drives (he calls them "spinning rust") are obsolete relative to SSD's just like a flip phone is obsolete relative to an iPhone (or Galaxy, etc.). The flip phone can make calls, its primary function, but even if it has a color screen, it is not the current "best" technology in the long run. A spinning hard drive, even with a Type C connector, will back up your data, its primary function, but it is not the "best" technology in the long run.

Lots of people still use technology that is not the "best", and there is nothing wrong with that. In the end, it just has to work for them and you.

Thanks Ira, well, I'm using 5-8 TB externals, so SSD is still prohibitive.. So k ind of like electric cars, solar, wind... better but still too pricy.

Check the format on the drive that you can read but not write. If it is formatted NTFS all you have to do is reformat the drive to macOS Extended, APFS, or MSDOS and it will be writeable. Also, check the documentation on the drive, some enclosures have a mechanical switch that disables writing to the drive. Finally perform a Get Info on the drive and see what privileges are set. You may have to reset the privileges.

The new drives are not likely to be any speed bump because the limiting factor is the USB 3.0 protocol and the USB ports on your current Mac are USB 3.0. The best any USB 3.0 device can achieve is 5 Gbps. If DriveDX gives the old drives a clean bill of health there is no reason not to reformat and keep using them, especially if you are staying at the same level of technology. Aging affects several S.M.A.R.T. values and is likely to provide early warning -- if you are watching and know what to watch. DriveDX watches continuously and knows what to watch. That said any drive, regardless of age, is subject to catastrophic failure with little or no warning, but the odds are against it.

Thanks JOe,

1- the new Lacies, are C, I've read these get to 20gb not 5.. when I get the new M1 27"... that where it's heading. Does change your opinion knowing, I'll get the new 27"

2- Drive DX... there is a setting or some alert tells you drive is in trouble. Where do you set that? (I think I turned it off) or just set your own monthly calandar event to check?

3- Drive DX, looks great, but still cannot use it for externals. Got some other software which think installed ok, but still not working for externals. Sent email to them. Seems externals are issue for them to deal with.

Ok then maybe if erase, and then get good bill health -- your opinon is (kind of mind until talked out of it), even spinning drives can go 10 years fine -- but does that final question #1 change anything being I'll have new computer... C usb at some point shortly (d2) geared for that. ie may say.. well, if getting new computer soon.. those d2 would be much better, or maybe not, that older Seagates.. if working ok.

PS Joe, ok got external drives working drive DX, time machine seem ok...
Question in DU first aid, top level, Seagate, quick pass, but then I do first aid test level below where I named it time machine goes on and on. Should one even do first aid on that lower level (where its indented and you name the drive)?

The connector type (A, B, C) is related to the USB protocol but a Type C connector can be used with USB 3.0 (5 Gbps), 3.1 (5 0r 10 Gbps), 3.1 Gen 2 (10 Gbps), 3.2 (20 Gbps), 4 (40 Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 (40 Gbps), or Thunderbolt 4 (40 Gbps). Speed is determined by the USB protocol used by the slowest device (port, connector, cable) in the chain. So if your LaCie drive, your computer, and the connecting cable would all have to be USB 3.2 to achieve 20 Mbps throughput. Your current computer is wired for USB 3.0 so that is the limiting factor. The USB ports on the current generation of M1 and M2 Macs are either USB 3.0 or 3.1 Gen 2 so depending on which port you choose you could have a maximum speed of either 5 Gbps or 10 Gbps. However if you connected a USB device to one of the Thunderbolt 4 ports and you had a USB 4 drive Your could get 20, 20 or even 40 Mbps throughput depending on connecting cable and/or the attached device.

1. Launch DriveDX
2. On the menu bar click on The DriveDX icon
3. In the Drop down window click on prefences
4. In Preferences > General check the box labeled Launch at login and Specify the testing interval
5. In Preferences > Advanced when to report and how to report
6. Click anywhere outside of the DriveDX window to close it
7. Forget DriveDX is running until you get an email warning you of a drive with questionable health.

It works just fine on all my external drives whether connected via Thunderbolt, USB, or firewire. Only one of these drives is internal


As far as I am concerned the computer and the drives are separate entities and USB 3.0 is fast enough for Time Machine drives. I am using a USB 3.0 drive on my M1 Max Studio and my only objection is I wish the fan were quieter. (Most of my other drives HDs and SSDs get along just fine with conduction cooling but this particular enclosure also houses an optical (CD/DVD) drive that generates a lot of heat.)

Externals now working with Drive X.

The old Main HD 5TB toast/ bad. Now not tested erasing and retesting, but if bad siganls now... you'd just trash right?.. could be perfect after a erase?.
The old TM is good with couple minor warning, close perfect.. not perfect.
The old backup which now became the main 5TB perfect.
ONe in bank not sure, guessing fine. Yeah, so maybe I could return 2 of three new Lacies., lets see.

Joe: I would think when get new 27" M1, all those things were be perfect to get the 20 Gps, combined with 7400 rpm over 5400 is t;hat something significant or..? ie getting closer to a real much better external drive?

BTW, Disk Daisy, just trying for a bit.. Dont' see ithe interface any better than Macs, improved and simple About: Disc Storage. You can click tediously on blocks.. no interest. Am I missing something with these stand alone apps over Maps greatly improved About/ Disc Storage?

PS Joe, all this madness turns out just one HD failing, the main data external had 6 years 5TB. That brought down with it: TM external and even bluetooth keyboard, and Hub and Apple tech (sharing screenI, incorrectly misdiagnosed everything to be with bad computer or Mad HD.
apple senior tech, even was recommending a full replacement of OS.
And then BH "computer" specialist, selling all new Hardrives.... which could even get on board when arrive Thursday, as they don't include (and he was not knownedagle enough and knew I still had older 27" as dont sell a newer one yet --- to mentioned don't come with converters)..

All 3 converters are coming now from Amazon on Rush and even Seagate, after hour and hours lost with bad Seagate techs, etc. (Maybe keep one of D2)... And might return the 2 SSD Sandisk, for laptop which are fine, but old one testing fine with DriveDx hence you were right about motivations. ( though to be fair, the apple tech from months ago saying to replace drived every 5 years just misguided, apple does not sell drives, right?)

But Drive DX is a marvelous interface.. so clean and t o the point, yes, why not replace as needed, not random time, as the deal/ space get better on these every year. Kudos.

If DriveDX says the drive is failing or has failed you could erase it 1,000 times and it would still be failing or failed. Don't confuse the volume structure with the mechanical health of the drive. Volume structure is software, DriveDX is testing the hardware.


IF that is DriveDX test results, strat looking for a good buy on replacements.


You are golden.


The limiting factor will always be the lowest USB protocol level (USB 3.0, 3.1, etc. of any device, cable, or connector in the chain. Unless the port on your drive, the connecting cable, and the port on your computer are ALL USB 3.2 or higher you cannot achieve 20 Mbps throughput. I for one have never seen either a cable or an adaptor rated USB 3.2, so you would have to have a USB 4.0 cable and connect to one of the Thunderbolt 4 ports on your new Mac, and have a USB 3.2 port and port adaptor on the drive to get to 20 Mbps. But quite frankly USB 3.0's 5 Gpbs will still adequate for TIme Machine. (Changes in Time Machine have dramatically reduced the amount of data written to the disk. The only time disk speed would be noticeable is during the data recovery stage and it appears to me that is compute not I/O bound.


Daisy Disk, Disk Map Analyzer, and Grand Perspective all do pretty much the same thing provide an indication of what and how the disk space is being used and will delete temporary files to free up some disk space. They are not app unistallers nor do they do anything like DriveDX.


S.M.A.R.T. has been around for years but for much of that time we either did not have the tools to access all the data and even when we had the full S.M.A.R.T. picture available, significant technical sophistication was required to analyze it. Micromat's Lifespan and Drivescope were first-generation tools intended to automate the data gathering and analysis task. I think DriveDX is in the second or third generation of that technology that has grown out of the open-source community. The people you talked to previously didn't have or maybe even know about these analytical tools. IHMO DriveDX is a game-changer and your experience would appear to bear that out.

"If that is DriveDX test results, strat looking for a good buy on replacements."

Joe: So what is the standard you go by to replace the drive?

Here: on the TM:

https://imgur.com/a/s6E8JOJ

Left 2 little errors, few hours later only 1. So thought oh 1 little error, ok? dont understand metric there at all: 1 (1/0) maybe be ok later? go away? Even with on right one error, you'd be replacing? You want 0 problems? I'm asking maybe fine until...Top not say green/ good.. could still have years left ok?


"The limiting factor will always be the lowest USB protocol level (USB 3.0, 3.1, etc. of any device, cable, "

But if D2s provide cable, and go into a brand new M! 27" in few months isn't everything optimal for 20gb?
https://www.lacie.com/products/d2/

Oh.. current 27" has 4 ports end back not sure what new one will have, hence may be a hub in mix ....


How long has drive DX been around in it's current so easy to see form?

"The people you talked to previously didn't have or maybe even know about these analytical tools." I talking to senior Apple techs last week, and a "computer sales specialist' at BH... You'd guess they don't know? Sadly..

That is a judgement call in my opinion. Some years ago, a major study by Google labs reached the conclusion that heat alone was not a major cause of drive failure. Note that in this case the overheat value has not been exceeded, but approached. My question is why is the drive running so hot? Overheating can be caused by many factors but some common causes are, in rank order...

• The enclosure's air vents are clogged with dust
• The enclosure is in a too warm location
• The enclosure is in a location with restricted air circulation
• The fan in the enclosure has failed
• Bad enclosure design
• The drive mechanism is failing

Most are easily corrected with a good dust rag, canned air, and relocating the enclosure to a cooler location with better air circulation. A new drive in the same location would have the same problem very quickly. Only you can determine your personal risk tolerance but if it were my drive I would perform each of the following steps in order...

1. With the drive powered down, check the enclosure for dust and very gently blow out the ventilation holes with canned air.
2. Carefully examine the location of the drive for environmental heat, air circulation, anything that might reduce airflow or prevent heat dissipation and correct all problems found.
3. If there is a fan in the enclosure, I would manually trigger a Time Machine backup and listen closely to see if the fan is turning on. If not I would consider replacing the enclosure and keeping the existing drive mechanism. A new enclosure. A bare enclosure costs $50 and an enclosure with a new 4TB drive $200. You know your own skill level with tools but it is a 10 - 15 minute job and the only tool required to make the swap is a small Phillips screwdriver.
4. Continue to Monitor DriveDX reports closely and if the drive continues to run hot then I would probably replace it. (Personally I am a fan of OWC's Mercury Elite Pro enclosures, they aren't pretty, but they are quiet (passive cooling and no fan), rugged, and reliable. I have some of their enclosures I have used for years by swapping out the enclosed drive mechanism with increasingly larger hard drives and in some cases replaced the HD with an SSD.

Assuming you choose the right port on your new Mac and presuming the port on your Mac is the same type as the connector on the supplied cable the answer is yes, but the USB protocol of the d2 desktop drive is USB 3.1 Gen 2 and the standard for 3.1 gen 2 is 10 Mbps, not 20. So expect half of what you were hoping for

Joe thanks Today, different status Tm look

https://imgur.com/a/tK5JWxx

Is till heat?

no, other drives will not suffer, as all next to each other in same place to unique to that one Seagate for some reason. No stomach for doing any of that troubleshooting or case, just replace. That said it could still go years? You don't have a rule to how many issue.. don't even get numbers what mean 4/ 1... 1/0 dont' understand any of it.


These D2 brand new, their elite model, any guess why would not be at standard for 20gb, what is that called 3.2? ANd you don't notice much performance bump from 5gb, 10gb, 20gb..?

I don't think great externals, 8TB in $200 range any better...?