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M1 Big Sur Status Update
#58685 05/15/21 12:16 AM
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MY CURRENT SYSTEM CONFIGURATION
  • Principal Hardware: M1 Mac mini, 16GB Memory, 500GB internal Storage, 6TB Thunderbolt 2 SoftRAID array
  • Principal Software: MacOS 11.4 beta 3, SoftRAID 6.0.4, Carbon Copy Cloner 5.1.27 (6196)


NOTABLE RECENT CHANGES/IMPROVEMENTS
  1. Creating Bootable External Drives Previously I had only been successful in creating a bootable external drive on Thunderbolt 3 SSDs directly connected to one of the two Thunderbolt 4 ports on the M1 Mac mini. I can now create a bootable external SSD connected to one of the ports on an OWC Thunderbolt 4 hub either by installing macOS 11.4 or cloning the internal SSD using CCC 5.1.27 (6196).👌 NOTE: This and other reports such as this and others indicate the two Thunderbolt 4 ports are not created equal and complex systems such as mine may be sensitive to the connection configuration of high speed external devices. ‼️ Although 40 Gbps Thunderbolt 3 cables should theoretically have the same capacity as Thunderbolt 4 cables, I wish I had more Thunderbolt 4 cables to experiment with 🤫 (Aw h3🏒🏒 its only $€¥£﷼)
  2. Carbon Copy Cloner 5.1.27 The process of creating a bootable clone of Big Sur on an M1 Mac is definitely cleaner and although I didn't time it, I would swear faster. 👍 Kernel extensions and volume security settings are not cloned 👎 Whether the security settings on a clone can be changed or not remains to be determined❓ Booting from the clone on an external drive requires unlocking the encrypted internal boot drive. 😳 It would appear this would render bootable external clones to be of little significant value other than for testing purposes. 🤔
  3. SoftRAID 6.0.4 Drivers install (albeit with some coaxing and lots of previous experience installing kernel extensions on my part)🤞 The SoftRAID App still does not "play nice" with APFS formatted arrays, there are workarounds but those should not be necessary 👎 (I believe this is in OWC's bailiwick). It still is not possible to encrypt SoftRAID arrays (I understand this is on Apple's to do list) 👎


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58686 05/15/21 02:24 AM
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Have you d/l'ed the (paid) v 6 beta yet?
Originally Posted by CCC
Faster backups with our next-generation file copier
Quick Update: Update your backups up to 20x faster
Redesigned interface with Dark Mode, real time task performance info and estimated time remaining
Snapshot navigator: Easy way to explore older versions of files
CCC Dashboard: The new menubar app, now with snapshot disk usage
Run backups "When files are modified on the source"
Task Preview: See what will happen before you back up
Backup Audit: Review what was copied and why
Compare: Visual comparison of source and destination
Advanced file verification options
Pause a backup, and several other features our users have asked for

It's pretty much a "bells & whistles" type upgrade, but there's some useful stuff.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58689 05/15/21 05:20 PM
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The CCC 6.0 beta 5 release came after I posted. However when you say
Originally Posted by artie505
It's pretty much a "bells & whistles" type upgrade, but there's some useful stuff.
I have to disagree. There are significant enhancements and changes in CCC 6.0 as well as several cosmetic bells and whistle changes.
  1. A backup that took 25 to 30 minutes using CCC 5.7.1 takes 9 minutes 26 Seconds in CCC 6.0 thanks to the significant improvements in the file copy mechanism
  2. Creating a bootable backup in CCC 5.7.1 took roughly 20 minutes while using the legacy utility in CCC. 6.0 it only takes 6 minutes. Unfortunately...
  3. My M1 Mac recognizes CCC 5.7.1 bootable clones and boots from them. So far I am unable to coax my system into recognizing any CCC 6 clone as bootable (but that is subject to further testing and experimentation).
  4. CCC 6.0 offers significant enhancements in managing and restoring from APFS Snapshots which IMO raise it to the level of being a credible competitor to Time Machine as a backup utility.


OBSERVATIONS
Originally Posted by CCC 6 Documentation
Copying Apple's system is now an Apple-proprietary endeavor; we can only offer "best effort" support for making an external bootable device on macOS Big Sur. We also do not generally recommend that users attempt to make their backups bootable — you can restore all of your documents, compatible applications, and settings from a standard CCC backup without the extra effort involved in establishing and maintaining a bootable device.

In the past, a bootable backup was an indispensable troubleshooting device that even novice users could rely upon in case their production startup disk failed. The reliability of Apple's External Boot solution has waned in the past several years, however, and the situation has grown starkly worse on the new Apple Silicon platform. Apple Silicon Macs will not start up (at all) if the internal storage is damaged or otherwise incapacitated, so there is very little value, if any, to maintaining a bootable rescue device for those Macs.

It has also grown increasingly difficult to make a copy of the operating system. Starting in macOS Big Sur (11.0), the system resides on a cryptographically sealed "Signed System Volume"(link is external) that can only be copied by an Apple-proprietary utility. That utility is very one-dimensional; choosing to copy the system requires that we sacrifice other backup features, e.g. we cannot copy the system and retain versioned backups of your data. Due to these changes and the limitations of Apple's new "Apple Silicon" platform, creating an external bootable device is not only less approachable for novice users, it's also less likely to serve as a reliable troubleshooting device.

I have questioned the necessity of bootable clones since Apple introduced the Recovery Drive, their viability as backup since the advent of Big Sur, and usefulness as testbeds since M1 Macs. (Three strikes?) Admittedly although I have been in the habit of keeping a bootable clone for emergency use for many years they're and are seldom current and I have long relied on Time Machine as primary for backup and recovery (Two drives and one of those is RAID 5). I am confident there are some, perhaps many, who blame Apple for the changes that have made bootable clones less attractive and useful. Personally I find assessing blame to be a pointless waste of time and highly counterproductive, it is better to adapt and move on. Personally I commend Mike Bombich for dealing with the facts on the ground and was presented lemons in the form of changes and limitations on what his tool can reasonably accomplish, he has dealt with the changes and it appears has created some decent lemonade in the form of a credible backup utility. I will pay for CCC 6 and continue to use it albeit with different expectations.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58690 05/15/21 06:42 PM
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SECOND TIME WAS THE CHARM!

I tried once again create a bootable clone using CCC 6.0 Beta 5 and two things happened
  1. Although I had all the same settings in CCC (I used the same task) it appears the first trial used the ASR task version used on Intel Macs and not the M1 version 🤷‍♂️. The first trial took 6 minutes and this one took 20, even the progress display was different
  2. This time the resulting clone is bootable (I am running it it now.) NOTE: I initially thought the cloning process had failed because it took so long (several minutes) for the system to recognize the clone was bootable.


Other than that the resulting bootable clone is no different than that produced by CCC 5.7.1 🥺


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58737 05/23/21 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
The CCC 6.0 beta 5 release came after I posted. However when you say
Originally Posted by artie505
It's pretty much a "bells & whistles" type upgrade, but there's some useful stuff.
I have to disagree. There are significant enhancements and changes in CCC 6.0 as well as several cosmetic bells and whistle changes.
  1. A backup that took 25 to 30 minutes using CCC 5.7.1 takes 9 minutes 26 Seconds in CCC 6.0 thanks to the significant improvements in the file copy mechanism
  2. Creating a bootable backup in CCC 5.7.1 took roughly 20 minutes while using the legacy utility in CCC. 6.0 it only takes 6 minutes. Unfortunately...
  3. My M1 Mac recognizes CCC 5.7.1 bootable clones and boots from them. So far I am unable to coax my system into recognizing any CCC 6 clone as bootable (but that is subject to further testing and experimentation).
  4. CCC 6.0 offers significant enhancements in managing and restoring from APFS Snapshots which IMO raise it to the level of being a credible competitor to Time Machine as a backup utility.
I'll qualify my "bells & whistles" characterization of CCC 6...

Yes, it is faster - Cloning my installation took 4 minutes with v 5 and takes only 2 1/2 minutes with v 6. - and the enhanced snapshot functionality is a plus, perhaps even a major plus, but they and all the other enhancements are no more than bells & whistles in the face of what may be the end of CCC's historic functionality: cloning. They are NOT the stuff of which a paid upgrade is made!

Judging from the hasty implementation of the v 6 upgrade procedure - without its even having been updated from the v 5 procedure - I've gotten the feeling that it's a "panic" move made while perpetuating CCC's cloning functionality remains at least a possibility.

Unlike TechTool Pro, Disk Warrior, and others of their ilk, CCC doesn't provide functionality to which users can cling even when it's no longer necessary. When it can no longer do its job, well...it's done.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is the last paid CCC upgrade we ever see.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58738 05/23/21 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Yes, it is faster - Cloning my installation took 4 minutes with v 5 and takes only 2 1/2 minutes with v 6. - and the enhanced snapshot functionality is a plus, perhaps even a major plus, but they and all the other enhancements are no more than bells & whistles in the face of what may be the end of CCC's historic functionality: cloning. They are NOT the stuff of which a paid upgrade is made!

Judging from the hasty implementation of the v 6 upgrade procedure - without its even having been updated from the v 5 procedure - I've gotten the feeling that it's a "panic" move made while perpetuating CCC's cloning functionality remains at least a possibility.

Unlike TechTool Pro, Disk Warrior, and others of their ilk, CCC doesn't provide functionality to which users can cling even when it's no longer necessary. When it can no longer do its job, well...it's done.
I still don't know what my initial glitch in CCC 6 was that failed to produce bootable clones but they are bootable now albeit kernel extensions are still not cloned. From conversations with other developers that may be fixed in macOS 12 or 13 when Apple finishes work on the tool kit third party developers need to completely remove their extensions from the system area. That will also permit third party extensions to run without reducing the security settings on the boot volume. But that ball is in Apple's court.

Your observation about TTP and DW is IMHO very astute.

Whether CCC can survive or not is open to question. The enhanced snapshot management features together with data cloning/backup from my viewpoint make CCC the only viable competitor to Time Machine for backups, but Time Machine's integration into the OS itself make it really tough competition.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58739 05/24/21 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Whether CCC can survive or not is open to question. The enhanced snapshot management features together with data cloning/backup from my viewpoint make CCC the only viable competitor to Time Machine for backups, but Time Machine's integration into the OS itself make it really tough competition.
CCC's snapshot management gives it an edge over Time Machine by providing a GUI that enables you to access individual items, and (if my understanding is correct*) to take a limited version of TM on the road without having to carry your TM drive. (* Do CCC snapshot creation parameters affect your TM schedule?)

Would that plus data backup combine to make a useful app? Yes, but NOT the $40 cash cow that CCC is today.

And in a parallel universe...

I ran across this post from SuperDuper!'s Dave Nanian:
Originally Posted by Shirt Pocket Watch
We're happy (and, frankly, relieved) to announce the immediate availability of SuperDuper v3.5 Beta 1: our first version to fully support Big Sur backups.

That's right: bootable Big Sur backups for Intel and M1. Today! (Only in 11.4 on M1 Macs) (Emphasis added)
I didn't see any hardware caveats.

Any thoughts on that?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58740 05/24/21 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Would that plus data backup combine to make a useful app? Yes, but NOT the $40 cash cow that CCC is today.
My upgrade price was $20. Given all the work that has gone into it the price doesn't seem unreasonable.

Originally Posted by artie505
I ran across this post from SuperDuper!'s Dave Nanian:
Originally Posted by Shirt Pocket Watch
We're happy (and, frankly, relieved) to announce the immediate availability of SuperDuper v3.5 Beta 1: our first version to fully support Big Sur backups.

That's right: bootable Big Sur backups for Intel and M1. Today! (Only in 11.4 on M1 Macs) (Emphasis added)
I didn't see any hardware caveats.

Any thoughts on that?
If they have a free version, I will test it to see how it compares to CCC 6. The caveat implies two things,
  1. it is probably dependent on Apple's ASR utility and likely will produce the same incomplete results as CCC 6 and/or
  2. it may not work on my mini running macOS 11.5 beta.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58741 05/24/21 04:46 PM
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SUPER DUPER TEST
  1. Yes they have a free version
  2. The M1 compatible version is availalble only through a link in the blog and not from the usual download links
  3. Yes it does produce bootable clones
  4. They are the same incomplete clones as those produced by CCC 6. (NOTE: Apple's ASR routine works as it is intended to, the fix for the incomplete clones will come in macOS 12 or 13 after Apple completes work on their extensionKit and third party developers have rewritten their code to use it.)
  5. Like CCC, Super Dupper cannot update a clone and maintain bootability. ASR always erases the target drive.


OBSERVATIONS
  • Updating CCC to version 6 cost $20, the full purchase price is $39.99. It can be used free for thirty days
  • Super Duper registration costs $25 but it can be used with reduced features at no cost
  • CCC has a much richer set of options and functions including a full suite of tools for working with APFS Snapshots.
  • CCC Clones open to a CCC screen with prebuilt tasks to clone back to the source drive.


IMHO (In My Humble Opinion)
  • If your primary or sole objective is a bootable clone either CCC or SD will get the job done
  • If you are looking for an alternative backup solution, CCC's tools for working with APFS snapshots make it more functional and flexible
  • If cost is your primary concern Super Duper can't be beaten as it can be used free of charge
  • The additional features of CCC do result in the user having more choices and can be intimidating to some users, but the documentation is outstanding.
  • Both are good utilities and it seems to me the choice comes down to the simplicity of Super Duper vs. the Flexibility and functionality of CCC and which fits your needs and tastes best.
  • I switched from CCC to Super Duper when SD first came out then back to CCC when SD was slow in supporting some new MacOS releases, so I am familiar with the history of both. After testing the two current betas the simplicity of SD is appealing, but I can envision too many situations where CCC's additional functionality and sophistication can be useful. I paid my $20 for the CCC 6 upgrade.


CAVEAT

I have no relationship, pecuniary or otherwise, with either Shirt Pocket Software or Mike Bombich, other than that of a purchaser of their software. The opinions expressed are mine and not those of FineTunedMac.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58753 05/25/21 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
They are the same incomplete clones as those produced by CCC 6. (NOTE: Apple's ASR routine works as it is intended to, the fix for the incomplete clones will come in macOS 12 or 13 after Apple completes work on their extensionKit and third party developers have rewritten their code to use it.)
That's what I was wondering about. (Too bad the security had to precede the functionality at all, let alone for so long.)

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Like CCC, Super Dupper cannot update a clone and maintain bootability. ASR always erases the target drive.
Is that an M1 thing? CCC can do it on my Intel MBP. Or am I misunderstanding what you've said?

Originally Posted by joemikeb
CCC Clones open to a CCC screen with prebuilt tasks to clone back to the source drive.
Wow! I've never looked at that screen carefully, so I've always wondered why the heck my usual tasks were popping up. Oops!

Originally Posted by joemikeb
I switched from CCC to Super Duper when SD first came out then back to CCC when SD was slow in supporting some new MacOS releases, so I am familiar with the history of both.
I'm surprised to learn that CCC preceded SD!. I first d/l'ed CCC before 2010, when it was donationware offering the same functionality as SD!, which was $30 shareware, so the reverse has always seemed logical to me.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
After testing the two current betas the simplicity of SD is appealing, but I can envision too many situations where CCC's additional functionality and sophistication can be useful. I paid my $20 for the CCC 6 upgrade.
I experimented with SD! not that long ago, and I much prefer CCC! I, too, have paid for my upgrade.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58754 05/25/21 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
That's what I was wondering about. (Too bad the security had to precede the functionality at all, let alone for so long.)
I suspect the lag is because most developers have figured out how to do their thing without installing kernel extensions at the system level which means very few are effected. Given the workload involved with the new processor and the biggest update of MacOS since the OS X Public beta not to mention the annual release schedule Apple had to prioritize. In case someone is wondering why Apple didn't simply throw more developers at the project, from my experience on very large software projects we were able to prove adding more bodies invariably resulted in significant delays, schedule slippages, and dramatic increases in error rates. So more bodies are counterproductive.

Originally Posted by artie505
Is that an M1 thing? CCC can do it on my Intel MBP. Or am I misunderstanding what you've said?
The issue is the sealed encrypted bootable volume/snapshot. Only the installer can create it and if you update without rebuilding it then it is broken and no longer bootable. In his blogs and documentation Mike Bombich recommends cloning only the data volume then re-installing the OS using the Recovery Assistant then using Migration Assistant to import the data from the clone volume.

Originally Posted by artie505
Wow! I've never looked at that screen carefully, so I've always wondered why the heck my usual tasks were popping up. Oops!
If you are looking at CCC or SD solely from the focus of creating bootable clones, you wouldn't have noticed all of the sophisticated features Mike Bombich has built into CCC. He obviously has a longer range view of CCC than a convenient method of creating bootable external drives.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58768 05/28/21 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Is that an M1 thing? CCC can do it on my Intel MBP. Or am I misunderstanding what you've said?
The issue is the sealed encrypted bootable volume/snapshot. Only the installer can create it and if you update without rebuilding it then it is broken and no longer bootable. In his blogs and documentation Mike Bombich recommends cloning only the data volume then re-installing the OS using the Recovery Assistant then using Migration Assistant to import the data from the clone volume.
I think I'm still missing something.

In Big Sur, my CCC task updated my data volume every day but never touched my system volume, so whenever there was an upDATE I erased the volume containing the existing clone and created a new clone with the updated system volume.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Wow! I've never looked at that screen carefully, so I've always wondered why the heck my usual tasks were popping up. Oops!
If you are looking at CCC or SD solely from the focus of creating bootable clones, you wouldn't have noticed all of the sophisticated features Mike Bombich has built into CCC. He obviously has a longer range view of CCC than a convenient method of creating bootable external drives.
Although my real purpose for CCC is creating bootable clones, I have been keeping up with Mike's updates to the best of my ability in my particular circumstances. It's just that I wrote that particular screen off without ever looking at it carefully...as, knowing Mike, I should have done.

He'd better have a long range plan, because CCC's basic purpose in life may be at the end of its rope.

As we've already discussed, though, competing with Time Machine is an awfully big challenge, particularly if he hopes to perpetuate CCC as a $40 app.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58769 05/28/21 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I think I'm still missing something.

In Big Sur, my CCC task updated my data volume every day but never touched my system volume, so whenever there was an upDATE I erased the volume containing the existing clone and created a new clone with the updated system volume.
All I can tell you is when I re-cloned the data volume of a bootable Big Sur clone it was no longer bootable and Mike Bombich has reported similar results and IIRC he did not indicate there was any difference between Intel and Apple silicone in that regard.

[quote=artie505]As we've already discussed, though, competing with Time Machine is an awfully big challenge, particularly if he hopes to perpetuate CCC as a $40 app. [/quote

That is a question only the market can answer. As I have said before this whole episode has lead me to re-think the value much less necessity of bootable clones.
  1. While I continue to keep a clone around, it is more from habit and/or convenience not out of necessity. *¹
  2. I cannot recall ever actually using a clone for anything other than an experimental purposes
  3. If you read the latest CCC User Guide Mike Bombich does not recommend the use of a bootable clone for backup and seems to question their usefulness
  4. The M1 Mac boot process always begins on the internal drive and ASR clones are not bootable stand-alone which further limits their utility. I don't know if this is true for Intel Macs or not


*¹ My layered Backup Strategy In retrospect I am going to look at how to fold CCC into my strategy (would that be belt, suspenders, and elastic waistband?), but it is doubtful a bootable clone will be included other than as a toy or proof of concept.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58770 05/29/21 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
All I can tell you is when I re-cloned the data volume of a bootable Big Sur clone it was no longer bootable and Mike Bombich has reported similar results and IIRC he did not indicate there was any difference between Intel and Apple silicone in that regard.
Just to be certain that we're on the same page, after creating a bootable (Intel Mac) Big Sur clone I ran "Copy All Files" daily, and the clone remained bootable. In fact, I discovered that the system volume remains untouched even after macOS upgrades by booting into the clone and looking at "About This Mac."

Got me beat!

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
As we've already discussed, though, competing with Time Machine is an awfully big challenge, particularly if he hopes to perpetuate CCC as a $40 app.

That is a question only the market can answer. As I have said before this whole episode has lead me to re-think the value much less necessity of bootable clones.
  1. While I continue to keep a clone around, it is more from habit and/or convenience not out of necessity. *¹
  2. I cannot recall ever actually using a clone for anything other than an experimental purposes
  3. If you read the latest CCC User Guide Mike Bombich does not recommend the use of a bootable clone for backup and seems to question their usefulness
  4. The M1 Mac boot process always begins on the internal drive and ASR clones are not bootable stand-alone which further limits their utility. I don't know if this is true for Intel Macs or not


*¹ My layered Backup Strategy In retrospect I am going to look at how to fold CCC into my strategy (would that be belt, suspenders, and elastic waistband?), but it is doubtful a bootable clone will be included other than as a toy or proof of concept.
I can think of three instances in which I've actually used a bootable clone:
  1. The underlying reason for maintaining a bootable clone, as a fallback in the event of HDD failure, but, as documented by BackBlaze's Hard Drive Failure Rates for Q1 2021 (caveats notwithstanding), SSD's, which, in the context of Apple's "never look back" mentality, are what all of us have got in our Macs now, simply don't fail often enough to demand backup.
  2. I've booted into clones to manipulate stuff that couldn't be done while booted into my boot volume, which, since Apple locked the system volume down in Big Sur, can no longer be done.
  3. I still find a bootable clone useful for "volume manipulation," which would otherwise have to be done from Recovery, simply because it takes considerably less time to boot into the former.
In short, as suggested by Mike, they're not particularly useful at today's date.

Aside from not being sure what you mean by "stand-alone," I have booted my Intel Mac from an ASR clone.

My "layered backup strategy" at the moment is a day old bootable clone, a two day old bootable clone, a month (maximum) old bootable clone, and Recovery/snapshots. CCC's new snapshot exploration functionality will eventually become an important layer, but I'll still maintain data clones for their simplicity when they're applicable.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58774 05/29/21 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Aside from not being sure what you mean by "stand-alone," I have booted my Intel Mac from an ASR clone.
To clarify, there are elements essential to the boot process that are not included in the clone so the boot process begins on the internal drive and then switches to the clone on the external drive. In the event the internal drive is somehow totally wiped out the only way to recover begins with connecting another M1 Mac to a specific Thunderbolt 4 port on the dead Mac and proceeds from there. I don't recall the exact port or process, but IIRC it essentially amounts to mounting the dead mac as a drive on the second Mac then reinstalling MacOS from there. If you are interested I think I can fine the exact instructions for the process.

To be truthful I don't know whether a macOS installation on an external drive is bootable without the internal drive or not and I am not about to wipe my internal drive to find out 🙅‍♂️ Frankly I doubt it, because at the present time the only boot volumes that are recognized in System Preferences > Startup Drive are on the current boot drive (I have heard rumors that may be fixed in macOS 12 or possibly13). To boot from any external volume requires booting into the Options menu and selecting the external volume from there and that includes an bootable thumb drive installer.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58777 05/30/21 09:12 AM
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Thanks for the clarification.

I assume I'll have to buy an M1 eventually, but happily, I'm at least a few years removed from it.

Dealing with OS learning curves can be difficult enough without having to deal with a hardware learning curve at the same time, particularly one that isn't even fully quantified and documented.

And apropos of that...
Originally Posted by joemike
In the event the internal drive is somehow totally wiped out the only way to recover begins with connecting another M1 Mac to a specific Thunderbolt 4 port on the dead Mac and proceeds from there.
So Recovery as it exists on an Intel Mac does not exist on an M1?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58783 05/30/21 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemike
In the event the internal drive is somehow totally wiped out the only way to recover begins with connecting another M1 Mac to a specific Thunderbolt 4 port on the dead Mac and proceeds from there.
So Recovery as it exists on an Intel Mac does not exist on an M1?
Given url=https://eclecticlight.co/2020/11/28/startup-modes-for-m1-macs/]there are multiple startup options[/url] and a Boot Recovery Assistant I will let you answer that question for yourself. I am not willing to test a complete failure out because it would be such a PITA to recover from the test. However, given the SSD is on the fabric with the CPU, memory, etc. it would appear the odds are anything that would wipe out the SSD would likely make replacement of everything else as well.

Hopefully the following will help clarify what is present and what is missing on the drives:
Originally Posted by Internal drive on M1 Mac
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “iBootSystemContainer”
APFS Volume “Hardware”
APFS Volume “iSCPreboot”
APFS Volume “xART”
APFS Volume “Recovery”

APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “RecoveryOSContainer”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Recovery”

APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia” Physical Disk “Container”
APFS Volume Group “Macintosh HD”
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD”
APFS Snapshot “com.apple.os.update-1F37D1B32...
APFS Volume “Data”
APFS Volume “Preboot” APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
APFS Volume “VM”
Portion in blue is the part of the boot process that is only present on the internal drive.
Portion in green is the fallback recovery (essentially the previous macOS version) and does not appear until the OS is updated.
Portion in red is the bootable sealed encrypted snapshot, although it is present on all the boot drives it is invisible and shows on the current boot drive because it is currently booted.

Originally Posted by Structure on Intel Mac
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “Customer”
APFS Volume Group “Macintosh HD”
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD”
APFSSnapshot“com.apple.os.update-...
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD - Data”
APFS Volume “VM”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Preboot”
APFS Volume “Recovery” Physical Disk “Macintosh_HD2”
APFS Volume Group “Macintosh HD”
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD”
APFSSnapshot“com.apple.os.update-...
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD - Data”
APFS Volume “VM” APFS Volume “Update” APFS Volume “Preboot”
APFS Volume “Recovery”

Originally Posted by Installed external drive
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “Untitled 2”
APFS Volume Group “Test”
APFS Volume “Test - Data”
APFS Volume “Test”
APFS Volume “VM”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
APFS Volume “Preboot”

Originally Posted by Cloned external volume
APFS Container “Apple
APFSMedia” Physical Disk “Untitled 2”
APFS Volume Group “Alternative”
APFS Volume “Alternative - Data”
APFS Volume “Alternative”
APFS Volume “Preboot”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
APFS Volume “VM”

If you say I said this I will call you a liar, but it appears that given the internal SSD is on the fabric and part of the M1 hardware "package" that Apple has elected to go with putting the deepest levels of recovery on the drive rather where they could be modified if necessary rather than in firmware.

Last edited by joemikeb; 05/31/21 12:12 AM. Reason: Correct color groups

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58798 05/31/21 03:46 PM
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As long as we are on the subject, in macOS 11.5 System Preferences > Startup Disk sees and external boot drive created by the Big Sur installer but does not see a bootable external clone. It is early days in testing but at this point I have no idea what the problem is and whether it is ASR vs Installer, or a startup Disk issue. I do know Startup Disk is inconsistent in what drives it sees. Not only is it inconsistent in what drive options it sees attempting to use it to change boot drive selections finally forced me to use the Fallback Recovery Drive to get correctly rebooted. Either (I ham handed something or this is still a work in process but I was starting to sweat before I was able to boot back into the internal NVME).

On a similar subject I have been successful in creating a bootable USB SSD by connecting through the Thunderbolt 3 port in the Thunderbolt monitor using Thunderbolt 4 cables on both sides. So it is definitely possible, even easy, but connection and cable sensitive.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58804 06/01/21 01:34 AM
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New News On M1 Bootable External Drives

Among the unheralded enhancements in MacOS 11.4 on M1 Macs are improvements in external drive bootability which I have reported on, Wouldn’t you know it there is a “but..”. The “but..” is that If you have multiple external boot drives you can easily switch between them using system Preferences > Startup Drive, but switching to or from the internal drive requires a journey through the Options menu and a lengthy verification process. Hopefully more work will be done.

I wish I could say I had discovered all of that myself, but I cheated and read on The Eclectic Light Company site. The best source of M1 technology information I have found.

Last edited by joemikeb; 06/01/21 01:36 AM.

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58806 06/01/21 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemike
In the event the internal drive is somehow totally wiped out the only way to recover begins with connecting another M1 Mac to a specific Thunderbolt 4 port on the dead Mac and proceeds from there.
So Recovery as it exists on an Intel Mac does not exist on an M1?
...given the SSD is on the fabric with the CPU, memory, etc. it would appear the odds are anything that would wipe out the SSD would likely make replacement of everything else as well.
I thought I had asked a rhetorical question, but if "totally wiped out" means physically, as opposed to simply totally erased (as I interpreted it), the question is pointless.

Thanks for the volume structure info, but it's mostly over my head, but...
Originally Posted by joemike
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “RecoveryOSContainer”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
(and its equivalent Intel Mac structure) is the fallback recovery (essentially the previous macOS version) (Emphasis added)
suggests that there's a full macOS installation in Recovery, which I've always thought hasn't been the case.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
artie505 #58809 06/01/21 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Thanks for the volume structure info, but it's mostly over my head, but...
Originally Posted by joemike
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “RecoveryOSContainer”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
(and its equivalent Intel Mac structure) is the fallback recovery (essentially the previous macOS version) (Emphasis added)
suggests that there's a full macOS installation in Recovery, which I've always thought hasn't been the case.
What is new to me and to Big Sur is the Fallback Recovery Drive which is the Recovery Drive from the previously installed version of MacOS. This Eclectic Light Company article does a good job of explaining the three Recovery modes on M1 Macs (This article covers all of the M1 startup modes). What is missing on M1 Macs is the Internet Recovery Drive (⌘⌥R), which is why I keep a bootable thumb drive installer with the current release version of macOS on hand.

If you look at the volume structure of Big Sur on an Intel Mac
Originally Posted by Intel Mac Volume Structure
APFS Container “AppleAPFSMedia”
Physical Disk “Customer”
APFS Volume Group “Macintosh HD”
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD”
APFSSnapshot“com.apple.os.update-...
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD - Data”
APFS Volume “VM”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Preboot”
APFS Volume “Recovery” Physical Disk “Macintosh_HD2”
APFS Volume Group “Macintosh HD”
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD”
APFSSnapshot“com.apple.os.update-...
APFS Volume “Macintosh HD - Data”
APFS Volume “VM”
APFS Volume “Update”
APFS Volume “Preboot”
APFS Volume “Recovery”
What is missing is the iBoot System Container and its contents. The equivalent functionality on Intel Macs is apparently in firmware or at least is not in an APFS volume format. If you think of it that makes sense as the Intel system predates APFS. Unfortunately TinkerTool System does not indicate the permission status of the various APFS structures so the iBoot System Container could be on the NVME, in firmware, or even in hardware. Thanks loads Artie, this has given me more research to do. (Why isn't there an emoji for sarcasm when you need one? 😜)

By-the-way This Apple Article explains how you might get in a situation where using the Recovery Drives is not an option and how to use a second Mac to recover the Recovery drive.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58834 06/05/21 05:11 PM
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macOS 11.4 boot Process Changes

For the technically minded this Eclectic Light blog is a good explanation of the revised boot process on M1 Macs as of macOS 11.4. These changes are part of Apple's re-shuffing to improve bopping form external drives. Given it is still not possible to switch between internal and external boot drives without going through the Options menu this seems unlikely to be be final revision. Getting rid of the T2 chip and narrowing the focus of the Security Policy specific volumes rather than system wide has obviously had more unanticipated complications than the software engineers had planned on. It's annoying but almost inevitable with all the changing bits, parts, and pieces not to mention the learning curve on the new hardware.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58835 06/07/21 05:07 PM
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I would add to the above post the Eclectic Light blog on Recovery Modes. It is interesting to learn that Intel Macs have 13 recovery modes triggered by various key combinations. The Apple chip Macs have 2, both triggered by pressing the Power button on the Mac, either a long or short press. The article praises the security of the Power button push and the fact that the user only need remember one thing: press the button.


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
Ira L #58836 06/07/21 07:27 PM
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Actually the M1 Macs have twelve startup MODES, three of which are Recovery Modes as illustrated here. Which is roughly comparable to Intel Macs as illustrated here. The primary differences are:
  1. As you pointed out Instead of the thirteen key combinations required on Intel Macs there are three power button options and numerous menu options on M1 Macs. (Heaven only knows how many times I have looked up the Intel key combinations but it only took once for the M1 Mac.) 🤠
  2. Intel Macs do not have an equivalent to the Fallback Recovery Drive found on M1 Macs after the OS has been updated.
  3. M1 Macs do not offer an option to boot into an internet recovery drive, it is automatically selected if no other option is available
  4. M1 Macs have a utility to set the SIP on a boot volume by boot volume basis.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: M1 Big Sur Status Update
joemikeb #58840 06/08/21 10:45 AM
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The inclusion of a Fallback Recovery mode
Originally Posted by
THE ECLECTIC LIGHT COMPANY
When you update macOS on an M1 Mac, the previous recoveryOS is kept in reserve as Fallback Recovery, to provide a safeguard in the event that anything goes wrong installing the new recoveryOS.
is thought provoking...if not downright ominous, particularly because if something goes too wrong you can't recover without a second M1 Mac close at hand.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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