Home Forums Mac Software Mac Operating Systems Big Sir or Not??

The last time I talked about downloading Big Sir there were positives and negatives about it. I know some of you see all the positives and recommend the d/l. I am wondering if I should still wait until more bugs are worked out? I hate bugs! 🕷🦟

Thanks.

I love it! And coming from a Californian, no less. (Who have you got in mind, Rita?)

As for Big SUr, however, the most notable thing about it in my eyes is that it doesn't play nice with my MacBook Pro's battery, which doesn't deliver as much of a charge as it did in Catalina and takes too long to charge after it's been run down. The situation improved in 11.2, but has still got a ways to go. (It's apparently a universal thing.)

In a different vein, Big Sur's GUI is significantly unlike Catalina's, so much so that I can see some people hating it. It's actually kinda jarring until you finally get used to it, and it seems like I'm still stumbling on new aspects of it, even after 3 months.

Bottom line for me is that I've found nothing about Big Sur that makes it a compelling upgrade for me. I'd be no less happy, perhaps even happier, were I still in Catalina.

So far, I'd say that the best reason I can think of to upgrade is to stay current, because, as joemike is going to say in the next post, the learning curve is NOT going to get easier as time goes by.

I presume that by now you know my predilection for computing on the bleeding edge. So keep that in mind as you read this.

At this point, any significant issues remaining in Big Sur are almost exclusively confined to M1 Macs and will not effect your Mac with an Intel processor. That is not to say that because macOS 11 (Big Sur) is the biggest change to the Apple eco-system since OS X, combined with the necessity of being compatible with both Intel and Apple silicon has caused some utility developers to be slow getting their product to market, because that is true. But, most third party apps were updated within weeks, if not days, of the release of macOS 11. So for the average user, such as yourself, none of that is likely to effect you or your day-to-day use of your Mac. Remember this, the "voices" that are heard on forums such as FTM are primarily those who are having problems and represent only a tiny fraction of the users and in spite of that there have been multiple reports on FTM of Big Sur installs and upgrades with no problems. I would say go for it, the learning curve isn't going to get any shallower.

Artie warned me about your response, but then, of course, I knew what it would be. LOL! Thanks for your input. I will take it under advisement.

You already know who it is. Hee hee.

As you know, I'm not big on change, and the move from Mojave to Catalina was not the big deal I thought it was going to be. The only thing different for me is that not all videos will download as quickly as before and I have more websites that Safari can't load, so I go to Firefox as I did before. I know there is more security, but nothing pops up about it for me to click on.

Can you tell me the aspects you don't like? Maybe they won't be relevant to me and then I may consider going to Big Sur sooner rather than later. As far as the battery, I leave it plugged in for the most part so that doesn't bother me much. Thank you.

For me, the only downside was that my Epson print driver became Airprint, which is Apple's take on what I want (and I don't). I had to reset the printing system, download the driver from Epson, and reinstall it. That happened not only when I upgraded from Catalina to Big Sur but also when I updated from 11.1 to 11.2. and again when I installed the 11.2.1 supplemental update. The procedure only took a few minutes but it is annoying to have Apple dictate which driver I wanted.

The icons in Safari look different, the application icons look different, and the fonts look different. I'm used to this now, so it's not a big deal. On the plus side, some wonky behavior in Mail seems to have been fixed with Big Sur.

Hopefully, you'll like it and not have to call it Bug Sur!

Bug Sir! That made me laugh. Thanks for your input. I have a lot to consider since I'm a scaredy cat about upgrades.

One more thing: See this thread about a bug in Safari. I intend to file feedback to Apple (not the same as a bug report, which I have already done). That might get some action. The bug is not a deal-breaker but it is a minor (albeit very minor) annoyance.

Thanks for the heads up. That sounds very annoying.

At the risk of sounding like Steve Jobs, there's one more thing: The native contrast in Big Sur was too little for my eyes, so I increased it in System Preferences > Accessibility > Display. That solved the issue.

For me, V11.2 has been working fine on my "test" external Samsung SSD. In fact, it seems faster than V11.1. But the one show stopper right now is the issue of not being able to create an eDrive with the latest version of Tech Tool Pro, V13.0.2. Also, V11.2 of Big Sur did cause some other issues which seem to have been corrected in the V11.3 beta. I'm hoping those corrected issues will resolve the eDrive issue with TTPro.

The only other bummer is that there is still no Big Sur version of SuperDuper!. I keep hoping that while I wait for V11.3 of Big Sur to be released, a version of SuperDuper! will be released. But that could be wishful thinking. Fortunately, both of my Macs are Intel-based, and I can use the latest version of Carbon Copy Cloner once I make the move to V11.3.

Can you be specific about those issues?

Since battery life isn't an issue, there's nothing I can point to in Big Sur as a reason to not upgrade...only annoyances that you'll probably get used to (as I have).

In favor of upgrading, I'll wonder if maybe Safari 14 will cure your Safari 13 problems, although I still don't understand why you've got any problems at all with Safari failing to load websites. (With which new websites are you running into issues, and do they return any feedback?)

All told, I think an updated Safari is a good reason for you to make the move, but I'll suggest that you wait for 11.3 at the least.

Wow, I didn't really understand the "Steve."

Wow, that's a bummer about SuperDuper as that is the program I use. I really don't like CCC. Good to know. Thanks.

Well you still didn't tell me about what you had to get used to besides the battery issue. That's what I wanted to know. And I'll take you advice and wait until at least 11.3.

As far as the websites not loading I will have to wait until it happens again. I can't remember which ones they were. It is just the usual error message saying Safari can't load the website, blah, blah, blah.

Honest truth is I don't even remember most of what bothered me. I just figured it out and got past it.

I had the same contrast issue as Jon, and after some playing around I was able to satisfy my eyes.

I've got some font size issues that I can't get around.

I hate that opening a new Text Edit window while I've already got one open no longer generates a new free-standing window.

As you can see, nothing critical.

(PS: Next time you run into one of your recalcitrant websites, please post a screenshot of the Safari pop-up.)

It was customary for Jobs to wait until the last moment to announce a BIG THING. He characteristically pretended to "remember" it by saying "Oh, there's one more thing" and then come out with what everyone had been waiting for.

I will. Thanks.

(PS: Next time you run into one of your recalcitrant websites, please post a screenshot of the Safari pop-up.) [/quote]

I miss Jobs. I guess he wasn't easy to work for/with, but things seemed to be better then for the customers.



He characteristically pretended to "remember" it by saying "Oh, there's one more thing" and then come out with what everyone had been waiting for. [/quote]

Sorry for the late reply. I had previously started the thread entitled "Carbon Copy Cloner Status", and the discussion eventually led to issues with the latest release of Tech Tool Pro and creation of its eDrive. On page 2 of that thread, our resident expert joemikeb made an extremely informative post, #57809. I'll quote it here directly to make it easier for you (and others):

"I have no experience with Big Sur on Intel Macs and there are definite differences, but from posts I have seen on other product support, web sites macOS 11.2 apparently broke some things associated with external boot drives that were working in 11.1. It appears the problem revolves around changes in the utility used to bless a boot drive. I have also seen reports similar to yours about the version of Disk Utility used to erase a volume. In both cases, early results indicate both issues are fixed in the current macOS 11.3 beta. Given macOS 11 is the biggest rework of Apple's OS since Mac OS X, you may have made the switch one update too soon."

Sure is helpful! Thus, that is one reason why I am waiting for the release of V11.3 of Big Sur before making the final move from Catalina.

Could not agree more! I know that Dave Nanian has been struggling with Big Sur and trying to come up with a version of SuperDuper! that would work. As it is, only with Intel-based Macs does Carbon Copy Cloner work "cleanly", ie, in a straight forward manner. There is a way to use SuperDuper! with Big Sur, and it's described here:

https://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/

But that's WAY too "clumsy" for me! As it is, I believe in the KISS philosophy: Keep It Simple, Stupid, and hence much prefer the direct, straight forward method for the backups.

Thank you. I think I will wait for sure.

https://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/

But that's WAY too "clumsy" for me! As it is, I believe in the KISS philosophy: Keep It Simple, Stupid, and hence much prefer the direct, straight forward method for the backups. [/quote]

This is embarrassing!

I'm so mired in another Big Sur bug (which I think popped up in 11.1) that I completely forgot to mention it...

If I use a keyboard control - Apple supplied or Butler added - to manipulate my currently playing song, the next time I try to play it or anything else the play is choppy, i.e. it stutters and starts and stops and starts... usually until I quit and relaunch Music, but sometimes it corrects itself on its own.

The only reliable way for me to start/pause/stop a song is from within Music.

Giant PIA!

Thanks. You're giving me more reasons to wait!! I really don't understand why they launch new versions until they've been completely tested. I know they can miss stuff, but it seems like they don't listen when people give feedback anyway.

My biggest peeve with Apple is that they don't pay attention to minor issues.

In each new version of the OS I find minor glitches that have been perpetuated through multiple versions.

I know. That's why it's so aggravating when there are a whole host of people complaining, it just makes no difference.

Yeah, one would think Apple would listen to their customers. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case, and it's getting worse and worse.

Yep. It's not their baby, it was Jobs' baby and he cared. Sometimes I wish I didn't hate Windows/PCs'Gates so much. I feel trapped but still prefer Apple.

I've got to back off of my Music bug, Rita.

After paying close attention for a while I've learned that the issue occurs with only one file - my 10 hour white noise recording - which I guess has become corrupted and somehow affects the entire app.

I'll re-record and see what happens. (But don't hold your breath.)

OK, I won't.

I'll re-record and see what happens. (But don't hold your breath.) [/quote]

I hear you, Marty!

I am STILL peeved that they removed the MOSAIC SCREENSAVER from back in the "Lion" days. I have no idea why they would bother to remove it from the usual bundle of options which were in the earliest days and remain therein today (e.g. Classic, Shell, Flurry, etc.).

OK, the second beta of OS 11.3 was released yesterday:

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/02/17/apple-seeds-macos-big-sur-11-3-beta-2/

In actuality, there is nothing, at least "on the surface", that helps me with V11.3. But what I am anticipating is help with these issues, previously pointed out by joemikeb:

"I have no experience with Big Sur on Intel Macs and there are definite differences, but from posts I have seen on other product support, web sites macOS 11.2 apparently broke some things associated with external boot drives that were working in 11.1. It appears the problem revolves around changes in the utility used to bless a boot drive. I have also seen reports similar to yours about the version of Disk Utility used to erase a volume. In both cases, early results indicate both issues are fixed in the current macOS 11.3 beta. Given macOS 11 is the biggest rework of Apple's OS since Mac OS X, you may have made the switch one update too soon."

That helpful post came about when I had issues with the latest release of Tech Tool Pro and V11.2 of Big Sur.

Nope, it's really a bug, but I can't pin down the exact specifics other than that pausing a song with a keyboard command sometimes affects playing a new song in the Music interface.

And here's another bug, albeit an innocuous one, because the red box disappears after a few seconds.

It happens when I QuickLook stuff on my desktop. It happened once in ~/Library/Pictures when I went looking. It seems to affect docs only, not folders.

I don't see that bug. When I use Quicklook to view desktop documents, everything appears to be normal.

It's erratic, Jon.

I hadn't seen it in a while before yesterday, and I no longer see it now, nor can I think of anything I may have done to trigger it.

If not outright buggy, I'm certainly finding Big Sur annoying.

Does it happen consistently with the same file? I ask because some of my photos (which were scanned many years ago and several OSs ago) look peculiar, but that's consistent with those particular photos.

Tough to say, because it doesn't happen consistently, but although my screenshot was of a newly created file, it also happened with files that have been on my desktop for months, if not years during yesterday's stretch.

FWIW, the issue with Quicklook and some older photos predates Big Sur.

My issue is definitely new to Big Sur, and, at least at the moment, it doesn't affect pics.

Having finally bit the bullet and pulled the Upgrade trigger, I'm now running Big Sur 11.2.2 without issue....I did discover that one of my favorite "go-to" graphic user interface built-in utilities has been deprecated, however, with Big Sur. The Network Utility is no longer. All the functions remain available through the Terminal and the command line interface, but having access to those functions through a convenient GUI will be missed.

Thanks for the report. I did upgrade from V11.2 to V11.2.2 on my "test" external SSD, and it seems to be fine. However, I am waiting for V11.3, which should be out shortly, before I make the final move from Catalina. Things with Tech Tool Pro will need to be fine with V11.3, though. We'll see.

Still bummed out, though, that for Intel-based Macs, there is no newer version of SuperDuper!, like there is for Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). If I do make the move to V11.3, I will need to purchase CCC (can use it free for the first 30 days).

You might take a look at NetworkKit on the App Store.

Thanks joemikeb,

I'm conversant in the command line, so just shifting my workflow to that mode will cover the intermittent need to dig into networking parameters, but the suggestion for a GUI app looks spot-on! This app looks to be more focused for LAN analysis and troubleshooting rather than WAN issues.

Well, the third beta of OS 11.3 was released a couple of days ago:

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/03/02/apple-releases-macos-big-sur-11-3-beta-3/

Looks like it's getting closer and closer.

Yes the third beta was released but a couple of major M1 "fixes" that were expected to be in that beta were not present or accounted for 😠

Sorry, for your sake, to hear that. Do you know if this issue, which you had posted about previously, has been fixed?

""I have no experience with Big Sur on Intel Macs and there are definite differences, but from posts I have seen on other product support, web sites macOS 11.2 apparently broke some things associated with external boot drives that were working in 11.1. It appears the problem revolves around changes in the utility used to bless a boot drive. I have also seen reports similar to yours about the version of Disk Utility used to erase a volume. In both cases, early results indicate both issues are fixed in the current macOS 11.3 beta."

If you remember, that issue/discussion arose when I could not create the eDrive with the latest version of Tech Tool Pro. I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing that it has been fixed, as I plan on "moving" to OS 11.3 (at the expense of no more SuperDuper! (at least for now)), with the hope that all will be good with Tech Tool Pro.

The primary issue I was concerned with involved kernel extension installations being blocked. It appears there is a difference of opinion on whether or not that has been corrected.

NOTE: macOS 11 is probably the last version of macOS that will permit the installation of any kernel extension as they create significant opportunities for security breaches. Future versions of macOS will require the use of system extensions that are entirely contained in the data volume. This will likely present significant challenges to some products due to major performance losses or even the ability to function at all.

Given macOS 11, and presumably subsequent macOS versions, boot from a cryptologicly sealed APFS snapshot that can only be created by the macOS installer, that is likely to present a very significant challenge to Micromat's eDrive and ProToGo product development as well.

So, to sum up, still don't know if it's an issue or not. I guess it will be a crap shoot as to whether things will be good or not with OS 11.3. Apple is sure making it more and more difficult to "like them". And here I thought Apple believed in the KISS philosophy: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Used to be that way.

Simplicity = Vulnerability

Pick your poison.

(I DO think there's some overkill going on, but I'm willing to live with the tradeoff.)

Nope, Simplicity = Being Smart. That's the way Apple used to conduct business. Now, they continue to make life difficult. Sure is an example of being narrow minded.

Being smart = Locking down the system in the face of the current scenario of relentless attacks regardless of a few unhappy users, which makes your idea of narrow-mindedness diametrically opposed to mine.

If you've got a specific simpler - and at least equally smart - approach to user security than Apple has come up with, I - and, I'm certain, they - would love to hear about it.

In the meantime, though, the real life fallout from Apple's approach of which I"m aware has been negligible.

Again, you misstate the situation. If Apple really wanted to, they could be Smart and find ways to "lock down" the system without causing so many headaches. And my notion of Apple being narrow minded is right on the money. Of course the same can be said of other companies/organizations, so I am not signaling out Apple.

I do agree that for the every day user like myself, except for needing to give up on some excellent applications, the effects of all this are basically very, very little. But the one thing I am definitely not pleased about is the loss (so far) of SuperDuper! (SD), and except for Intel-based Macs, the loss of Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). It is true that each of them have work arounds, but they are both clumsy and cumbersome, at best. I really would like to see them get back to doing it the straight forward way, but because of Apple making life difficult, and except for CCC and intel-based Macs, that is not the case. As Tom Hanks said in "Forrest Gump", Stupid is as stupid does. That's the way I feel regarding how Apple has messed up SD and CCC.

One other point: the loss of SD and CCC (except for Intel-based Macs) is a "core" operation that one must do, ie, make backups. Yes, there is Time Machine, but there are just too many advantages to using SD and CCC. That loss is definitely a bummer! I guess it is possible that in the future, both SD and CCC (with hopefully assistance from Apple, although that seems like a long shot right now) will work as usual. But then what happens with the next version of the Mac OS? Will Apple be short sighted again? What many folks are forgetting is such a situation happened with Catalina. When Apple released OS 10.15.5, it caused all kinds of issues for both SD and CCC. CCC did come up with a work around, but Apple did correct the issue with the release of V10.15.6 (and things are fine with V10.15.7). But then Big Sur is released, and the issues for SD and CCC are back.

Just to be clear, the loss of functionality in SuperDuper! and Carbon Copy Cloner is the ability to make a bootable backup (clone). This is a significant distinction from Time Machine. So far on Apple's SoC M1 Macs (to date) SD and CCC can make backups of the data portions of the drive.

I understand that. However, as you stated, it is the loss of making bootable backups. But, for CCC, one can make normal, bootable backups for Intel-based Macs:

https://bombich.com/blog

Read that first paragraph on that link. I am bemoaning the loss of making such bootable backups (clone) with SD. Hence, given that (for now) both of my Macs are Intel-based, I will need to use CCC to make bootable backups the "old fashioned", direct way.

Hasn't joemike reported that CCC can consistently make bootable clones of his M1 providing the hardware configuration is copacetic?

The "old fashioned, direct way?"

Did you not read the Bombich link I provided above? Here is what it says in the very first paragraph:

"CCC 5.1.23 can now make bootable backups of a Big Sur startup disk on Intel-based Macs."

So, just like before Big Sur, one can use CCC on Intel-based Macs even with Big Sur. And that is what I mean by "direct".

Yes I have said that it is possible to consistently make bootable volumes on M1 Macs if everything is copacetic (that word takes me back to my time in the Navy) but, and this is a BIG but, that process is entirely dependent on the installer to create the crypto-logically sealed APFS snapshot that is bootable. That puts any possibility of making a clone the old fashioned direct way beyond the realm of possibility. (It also puts a huge swathe of potential malware exploits into the shredder. 😎)

Apple's ASR utility worked with Intel Macs to create a bootable clone in Catalina and early betas of Big Sur on Intel Macs, but many of the security features have been removed, relocated, reallocated, and/or reshuffled on M1 Macs. For example some security settings that applied to all boot drives attached to an Intel Mac, are specific to each specific boot volume group on M1 Macs. While I don't know enough about the inner machinations of M1 Macs and Big Sur to fully apprehend everything that is involved, I know enough to realize that could, and probably has, thrown a major monkey-wrench into the entire ASR design. When you add to that the laws of unintended circumstances and Murphy's Law, it is entirely feasible the ASR utility has become the developer's Gordian's knot. So until someone figures out how to either untie or cut that knot, clones will remain out of reach.

Again, if you read the link I provided above for Bombich software, you will see that a direct backup/clone from an M1-based Mac requires some additional steps. As for Intel-based Macs, on the thread "Carbon Copy Cloner Status" (which I started), jchuzi made this post:

"I'm using CCC with Big Sur and, if you follow your customary procedure of reformatting the APFS volume and cloning everything, all will be well. One caveat: Let CCC erase the destination volume as part of the cloning procedure rather than use Disk Utility to reformat and then use CCC. That worked better for me than reformatting with Disk Utility and then cloning with CCC."

Well said! And from this link for Bombich Software:

https://bombich.com/blog

note that it says:

"Support for System volume cloning on Apple Silicon Macs is disabled for now because Apple's APFS replication utility does not currently work on that platform. When Apple fixes that, we'll post an update to CCC that restores support for making bootable backups on Apple Silicon Macs"

(APFS replication utility is ASR, I believe).

And here Dave Nanian lays out the issues very specifically:

https://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/

Note the "catastrophe" he described with V10.15.5 of Catalina, which I have previously mentioned a couple of times.

When in doubt, go to the horse's mouth (in Terminal ~ % man asr ) and you get...

How could I be expected to know that Terminal Command? Certainly, though, Apple is not moving very quickly (if at all) to fix the asr. That's just one reason why I say Apple no longer believes in the KISS philosophy: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Is there a terminal command for that?

Many Apple aficionados are familiar with the man command in Terminal. In fact, virtually all of the various utilities such as OnyX, TinkerTool, etc. are little more than GUI front ends for various Terminal commands. I simply made an incorrect assumption about the depth of your knowledge. The man (manual) command has its origins in Unix and long predates macOS X. If you ever have a question about any terminal command simply launch terminal an enter man +the command you are interested in. That is Unix however, so you have to be aware that everything in Terminal is case sensitive so it is "man asr" not "MAN asr" or "man ASR", or even "Man Asr". One other thing, although macOS is based on BSD Unix there are many macOS commands that are either unique to Apple or have Apple variant arguments. So the man command is more than useful, it is absolutely essential to using the command line in Terminal. I wish "man" had a search function so I could specify what I want and it would suggest possible commands to do it. (Hmmm 🤔. Wonder if Siri can do that? More research ☝️)

I am well aware of how careful one needs to be when entering commands in Terminal. On some sites, there could be a terminal command shown that one needs to use for a particular purpose. What I do in that case is a copy and paste (possibly making a needed change or two), so that I do not make any mistakes.

But back to my original "beef". Apple needs to move their a** and work on modifying the asr "process" so that both SuperDuper! and Carbon Copy Cloner can work like normal, even on M1-based Macs. Again, I point to that catastrophe Apple created with OS 10.15.5. Fortunately OS 10.15.5 had nothing that I needed, and I simply went back to V10.15.4 so that SuperDuper! would work as normal, ie, KISS. At least Apple realized their snafu and fixed the issue in V10.15.6, and it remained in V10.15.7. But look what happened when Big Sur was released. Apple really messed things up regarding backups!

Inasmuch as your linked doc is ancient (I'm running v 5.1.26-b2), I wasn't following you...thought you meant something else.

I think I'm missing something.

Doesn't your first statement say that you can make bootable M1 clones while your second one says you can't?

Or am I totally misunderstanding "bootable volumes on M1 Macs?"

Or am I insinuating a "now" where none exists?

YOU'VE JUST GOT TO BE KIDDING!

Your basis for saying that I've misstated the situation, i.e. its reality, is your statement that
and before I buy into that, you're gonna have to document your authority for saying it: Are you a highly skilled software engineer with in-depth knowledge of Apple's core code; or have you got a well-placed contact at Apple who talks too much; or did you hear it from the tooth fairy or, perhaps, a more authoritative source such as Rudy Giuliani; or...or what?

And you'll also have to clarify your definition of "narrow-minded."

It seems to be rooted in your feeling that Apple doesn't care about CCC and SD!, and that's selling them way short. They're in business to make money, and coding out cloning ability would surely cost them dearly by driving users away from Macs.

You keep going on about the 10.15.5 glitch, which was not the first such embarrassing moment for Apple (Remember when v 10.3.3 of Panther broke our internal modems and we had to either revert to 10.3.2 or rely on an external modem until 10.3.4 was released?), nor was it the least bit relevant to any Big Sur problems, nor do they presage problems in the next version of macOS.

Heck! This is complicated business, and unforeseen things happen when MAJOR, let alone minor, changes are made to an OS, but I'll continue to have faith in Apple's ingenuity and the fact that they've long since proven themselves to be anything but stupid.

I don't think that you have totally misunderstood, rather we have different understandings of what is meant by "clone". Bootable volumes can be installed on M1 Macs using the installer and then migrating the data from another installation, Time Machine, or a CCC or SD copy of the Data volume, but I think of that as an INSTALLATION. You cannot CLONE in the sense of the classic ASR, CCC, or SD replication of a complete bootable system in a single operation.

Personally I have not found Mike Bombich's work around to be at all satisfactory and after a couple of attempts to use it, I now use the installer and Apple's Migration Assistant to create a bootable external drive, but that is a NEW installation.

Just to make things clear:

1. For Intel-based Macs, the current (non-beta) version of Carbon Copy Cloner will work as normal, according to Bombich Software:

https://bombich.com/blog

So, again, as some folks seem to be mis-informed, according to the very first sentence on that link, CCC works just fine with Intel-based Macs and Big Sur. No work around is necessary.

2. According to you, Mike Bombich's work around is not all that "great".

3. For SuperDuper!, and seems to be for Intel-based Macs, the work around is not all that smooth:

https://www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/

Note what Dave says about M1-based Macs, and also types of external devices.

As I've already said a few times already, given that both of my Macs are Intel-based, I'll be switching to CCC for my bootable backups/clones.

In summary, one should 1) carefully read both of those blogs, 2) listen to what joemikeb says, and 3) listen to what jchuzi stated on the "Carbon Copy Cloner Status" thread, about CCC working fine with Intel-based Macs.

NO, I AM NOT KIDDING!

First, I am not a software engineer (although I am a former software developer, and used a different language, different applications, and different platforms). But all along, Apple has been touted as being so much more innovative than Microsoft, including the ease of using a Mac over a PC. Recently, it's very, very clear that Apple is moving away from that.

Secondly, unlike you, I do not listen to a tooth family, nor do I put a quarter under my pillow for the tooth fairy, nor do I listen to Rudy Giuliani. As it is, you are the one who lives in NY, not me! Hence, you would listen to him.

Third, and you FINALLY state something that makes sense, yes, I am pi**ed off that Apple is trying to kill off SD and CCC. Until Big Sur, everything was fine, but since then, not so good.

Fourth, regarding that snafu by Apple with V10.15.5 of Catalina, note what Mike Bombich says about it:

https://bombich.com/blog/2020/05/27...ts-bootable-backups-weve-got-you-covered

So, besides David N., even Mike B. moaned about it. You state that this snafu "nor was it the least bit relevant to any Big Sur problems". Yes, as far as running Big Sur, that is true. But, 1) it was very relevant to making backups with SD or CCC and Catalina, and 2) it showed just how callous and narrow minded Apple could be. If not, how could they fix it so easily in V10.15.6?

In actuality, both Dave and Mike are holding out some hope that Apple is working on the issues with their asr, and possibly would be resolved in the future. We'll see. If Apple does come through, it will restore my faith in Apple as being an innovative company that believes in the KISS philosophy (like they have in the past).

I want add one additional comment:

I am/was a great fan and advocate of Mike Bombich's use of ASR in beta versions of CCC in Catalina. It was elegant, very fast, and in my experience highly reliable. I am eagerly anticipating its return in future versions of CCC when Apple finally gets it to work with both Intel and M1 Macs. Until then I will use a separate installation of macOS 11.x on an external SSD as my experimental drive and keep the internal drive installation for production purposes. (Until then, I will be a happy camper if I can just get SoftRAID to play nice. )

I’ve been following this “conversation” for some time now in the hope that it would help me decide when to make the leap to Big Sur. Just like Plantsower I guess. The view count of over 1000 and over 70 replies suggests quite a few others might have also. It hasn’t helped.

I usually wait until version 2 or 3 of a new OS to allow creases to be ironed out. Version 3, I think, is around the corner and, despite the concerns aired here about bootable clones etc, I will take the leap when it does arrive. I can’t wait any longer. CCC has been part of my backup strategy for a long time (and will continue to be) but I only ever booted from the resultant clone to run Diskwarrior for the occasional maintenance check. I don’t do that any more

I similarly wait at least until the third version of a new Mac OS arrives. Besides getting bugs worked out, I have a requirement that all my third party software I use is compatible with the new OS. In the case of Big Sur, it eventually came down to 2 such programs: SuperDuper! and Tech Tool Pro. Unfortunately, SuperDuper! is not yet compatible, but given that Carbon Copy Cloner works fine with Big Sur and Intel-based Macs, I am good to go in that regard. For Tech Tool Pro, Micromat did recently release V13.0.2 of Tech Tool Pro for Big Sur compatibility on Intel-based Macs (both of my machines are Intel-based). Unfortunately, with V11.2.2, I could not create the needed eDrive with that version of Tech Tool Pro (other folks who use Tech Tool Pro had the same issue). From discussions here, it seems there were issues in V11.2.2 of Big Sur that possibly caused the issue. V11.3 supposedly corrects those issues.

In any event, when V11.3 is released, I will test it on my test external Samsung T7 1 TB SSD, along with V13.0.2 of Tech Tool Pro. If all is well, I'll move from Catalina, V10.15.7, to Big Sur, V11.3, along with moving to Carbon Copy Cloner. But I know I'll miss SuperDuper!.

I also rarely need to boot from my clone, but when the need arises, I was sure glad I could.

Got it now. Thanks for the clarification. (I somehow thought that you've reported being able to create an actual clone.)

By the way, it looks like a newer version of Carbon Copy Cloner was released on February 1st:

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/7032/carbon-copy-cloner

That's good to know (I never use beta versions of software, especially something as critical as CCC).

1. You've once again presented what appears to be your opinion as fact.

If it's indeed fact, please substantiate it as such, and if it's merely your opinion, please refer to any accurate report of the aftermath of the recent election for an example of fallout resultant from opinions being misrepresented as facts.

2. Inasmuch as you're a Trump supporter, I'm certain that Rudy's played a significantly more important part in your life recently than in New Yorkers' lives. (PS: You need to do some reading up on the the tooth fairy, and you'll do yourself a lot of good if you refrain from silly, pointless comebacks which demean you more than their intended targets.)

3. How can you seriously believe that Apple is trying to deliberately undermine their own business, which is what "kill[ing] off SD and CCC" would do?

4. I'm certain that it's totally fair to say that Apple fixed the 10.15.5 snafu as expeditiously in 10.15.6 as they fixed the 10.3.3 snafu in 10.3.4 because both were inadvertent coding errors.

You're taking this whole cloning issue way too seriously, not to mention personally.

REMINDER

With the exception of the Lounge, FineTunedMac forums are focused on troubleshooting issues and while it is inevitable that an element of personal opinion or preference may creep into a thread, proper etiquette is to claim your opinion as such. Prefacing a statement with a phrase like "In my opinion…" can make a fruitful discussion out of a potentially damaging argument. In like manner, assigning motives or blame to someone else's statements or opinions is never acceptable and can result in temporary or permanent loss of posting privileges.

Could not agree more. And using unnecessary phrases involving the tooth fairy and Rudy Giuliani are definitely immature and add nothing to the conversation. And it looks like artie505 did it again above. I'll answer his post soon, and some of my statements will need to be in a "like" tone, given he made some more derogatory ones that are again not necessary, nor applicable.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Man, you sure know how to veer off topic, I'll give you that!

First of all, again I repeat the true fact that Apple has always been touted as being more innovative than Microsoft. Even to this day, that belief still prevails. But unless you live on a desert island, it's very clear that Apple has been moving more and more away from making things easy and simple. While yes security issues have been more and more relevant and important, still I firmly believe Apple could continue to do things that would be transparent to a user and also continue to foster the ease of use of Macs. I don't have a software engineer's solution to it, but I am just relying on observing and experiencing what Apple has done on the past. I am sure there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

Secondly, i have never indicated that I am a Trump supporter. In fact, on some of my posts that I have made in response to others, I have "bashed" Trump. Similarly with Rudy. In fact, to be truthful, I have not followed his actions (especially recently) much at all. And Trump, Rudy, and the tooth fairy have nothing to do with this discussion. In fact, you are trying to make it relevant, but it clearly is not. It certainly makes you look misinformed. Also, I challenge you to show where I have indicated being a Trump supporter, and that I follow Rudy. Finally, the tooth fairy is clearly not relevant.

Third, regarding "killing off SD and CCC", while Apple might not be directly showing that, it seems clear that with these issues regarding asr, M1-based Macs, etc. and SD and CCC, it sure seems to be the case. Plus, this has been going on ever since Big Sur was released in November. One would think Apple would have fixed it by now.

Fourth, it actually took Apple about 1 and 1/2 months to release OS 10.15.6 after OS 10.15.5. I would not classify that as being expeditious, especially considering how it affected all the folks that use SD and CCC.

Finally, this cloning issue is serious. What it could lead to is not being able to backup/clone a Mac anymore and have a reliable way to starting up from such a backup. I'm sure I do not speak for myself when I say that being able to restart your Mac from such a clone is convenient, efficient, and at times can be a sure fire way of easily recovering from a disaster. That is what I am "b**ching" about. And yes, it is personal also, as that is the way I want to continue on with my backups.

True, but there are times when it is necessary to point things out that need to be pointed out.

In any event, as long as politics and the tooth fairy are not re-introduced into this discussion, we can get back on topic.

"We can get back on topic." What topic was that again?

This thread has become rather unamusing which is a pity because I was simply looking for nuanced advice from experienced operators about a sensible time to upgrade to Big Sur. I think I will stop following it. And upgrade.

Sounds good. You might want to wait a little longer, as V11.3 is currently at beta 3, and it should be released soon. V11.2 seems fine, although I have had some issues with Tech Tool Pro. But other than that, it seems stable and works well with all my other third party applications (except SuperDuper!). I will move to V11.3 (from V10.15.7 of Catalina) once it is released (assuming testing with Tech Tool Pro works as it needs to).

Finally, an opinion not presented as a fact, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

Lack of ability to easily create bootable clones would be a disaster, both for users and Apple, which is why I don't believe the current situation was created deliberately to "kill off" CCC and SD!.

I wouldn't for a second put it past Apple to see an app they like and put its dev out of business by building hir functionality into macOS, but the notion that they'd deliberately code critical functionality out of existence is beyond comprehension.

Finally, a mature, well informed statement! But you still have not provided ?justification? with your statement that I am a Trump supporter. Why not? It would be good if you did, as it is patently false.


While Apple might not show "directly" that they are trying to kill off SD and CCC, they sure are taking their sweet time with trying to ?get it fixed?. Remember, this has been going on since OS 10.15.5 was released (Yes, it was corrected in V10.15.6, but it reared its ugly head again when Big Sur was released back in November, and is still present).

One thing I am impressed with is that Mike Bombich and his staff were able to successfully develop a version of CCC that gets around this mess for Intel-based Macs. That would seem to mean Apple could help in getting the issue resolved, even for M1-based Macs. But from what I see, they don't seem very motivated to do just that.

Why keep this pot boiling? There's nothing to be gained and, in fact, it goes against your own earlier comment.

In my opinion, time to move on and "....get back on topic".

I am not re-introducing politics. I just feel badly "wronged" by his baseless, uncalled for, false accusation, and feel he needs to step up and address it. But I suspect he will not (and unfortunately it might be the case for others). As the old saying goes, "No guts, no glory".

Oh well, yes, back on topic.

ENOUGH ALREADY. I am locking this thread.