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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56037 09/05/20 08:38 PM
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Yeah, I will wait until then and then get instructions. This fall, when you update to Big Sur, you can convert your external drive to APFS without losing the data on it. Whatever you decide, I do NOT recommend partitioning. (Okay, I NEVER recommend partitioning unless it is unavoidable.) [/quote]

1. Nobody answered my question about the iPhone check box in the Network section. Messages is already syncing with iPhone and my Mac, so what is the reason for checking that box?

2. AirPlay showed up. I decided to try it later, but it had disappeared by then. Where is it so I can activate it?

3. Also, I see cleaner-app.app in the applications. Does that come with Catalina? I don't remember d/ling it.

Hopefully, that's it for now.


MacBook Pro - Catalina 10.15.6
Safari 13.1.2
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iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56040 09/05/20 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
If you feel the need for a bootable backup, the Recovery Drive will work to make repairs or even reinstall if necessary, which is what Apple intends. (Big Sur at this point cannot be cloned unless and until Apple creates a utility to do that. SuperDuper and Carbon Copy Cloner can only clone the data volume.)

I'm having a LOT of trouble trying to believe that Apple is going to leave us with no way to create a bootable clone. I'm having a LOT of trouble believing that they'd even think of it.

Their mandating an Internet connection for upgrading was bad enough, but at least it only left us potentially unable to upgrade, which is an option rather than a necessity.

How do they expect us to recover when we NEED to recover and we haven't got Internet accessibility?

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Whatever you decide, I do NOT recommend partitioning. (Okay, I NEVER recommend partitioning unless it is unavoidable.)

You've softened that stance since the advent of APFS volumes.

In anticipation of CCC and SuperDuper! regaining full functionality, and since Rita's got a 1 TB external to potentially use for a Time Machine backup of a 120 GB internal with less than 40 GB of system and data combined, I'll stick with my suggestion that she split the drive in half and reserve 500 GB for Time Machine and the rest (I suggest 5 x 100 GB.) for backup.

Last edited by artie505; 09/06/20 01:57 PM.

The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56042 09/06/20 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
1. Nobody answered my question about the iPhone check box in the Network section. Messages is already syncing with iPhone and my Mac, so what is the reason for checking that box?
If you have your iPhone set up to create a Personal Hotspot that means you are authorizing your computer to use it to connect to the internet using the iPhone's internet connection. Generally not recommended.

Originally Posted by plantsower
2. AirPlay showed up. I decided to try it later, but it had disappeared by then. Where is it so I can activate it?
Airplay instructions

Originally Posted by plantsower
3. Also, I see cleaner-app.app in the applications. Does that come with Catalina? I don't remember d/ling it.
That is no standard cleaner app.

Last edited by joemikeb; 09/06/20 02:23 PM.

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Re: Updating to Catalina
artie505 #56043 09/06/20 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I'm having a LOT of trouble trying to believe that Apple is going to leave us with no way to create a bootable clone. I'm having a LOT of trouble believing that they'd even think of it.
The ball is in Apple's court.

Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Whatever you decide, I do NOT recommend partitioning. (Okay, I NEVER recommend partitioning unless it is unavoidable.)

You've softened that stance since the advent of APFS volumes.
Not really! The advent of APFS volumes makes Prtitioning easily avoidable. 😜

Originally Posted by artie505
In anticipation of CCC and SuperDuper! regaining full functionality, and since Rita's got a 1 TB external to potentially use for a Time Machine backup of a 120 GB internal with less than 40 GB of system and data combined, I'll stick with my suggestion that she split the drive in half and reserve 500 GB for Time Machine and the rest (I suggest 5 x 100 GB.) for backup.
If you absolutely have to have a clone how about a 150GB partition for the clone and the remainder of the drive for Time Machine?


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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56045 09/06/20 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
1. Nobody answered my question about the iPhone check box in the Network section. Messages is already syncing with iPhone and my Mac, so what is the reason for checking that box?
If you have your iPhone set up to create a Personal Hotspot that means you are authorizing your computer to use it to connect to the internet using the iPhone's internet connection. Generally not recommended. OK, I won't!

Originally Posted by plantsower
2. AirPlay showed up. I decided to try it later, but it had disappeared by then. Where is it so I can activate it?
Airplay instructions It still doesn't say where Air Play went. At first it showed up as an icon on my Mac and showed that it was connected to one of our TVs in the house. Then all that disappeared. I was just curious but will probably not use it anyway, but thanks for the info.

Originally Posted by plantsower
3. Also, I see cleaner-app.app in the applications. Does that come with Catalina? I don't remember d/ling it.
That is no standard cleaner app.
I guess I may have downloaded it off the App store but forgot. So, I am assuming you don't recommend it either.

Besides the few little questions I had, I don't see a big difference between Catalina and Sierra for my use. I still haven't run into all the extra security steps I was warned about. It's been a lot easier than I thought. I was expecting the worst.


MacBook Pro - Catalina 10.15.6
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iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119
Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56046 09/06/20 05:34 PM
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Rita, after all your download problems I went looking for an alternative and now with the help of Diskmaker-X-9-Catalina, a donation-ware Applescript utility, and this YouTube video on using it, I have a 16GB thumb drive with the Catalina installer on it. Not that you still need it, but there may be others reading this thread who might be interested.

Now I will have to see if it will work for Big Sur.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56050 09/06/20 06:31 PM
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OK. Hope it helps someone. I got lucky!


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Rita, after all your download problems I went looking for an alternative and now with the help of Diskmaker-X-9-Catalina, a donation-ware Applescript utility, and this YouTube video on using it, I have a 16GB thumb drive with the Catalina installer on it. Not that you still need it, but there may be others reading this thread who might be interested.

Now I will have to see if it will work for Big Sur.


MacBook Pro - Catalina 10.15.6
Safari 13.1.2
Music 1.0.6.10




iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119
Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56053 09/06/20 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
Originally Posted by plantsower
3. Also, I see cleaner-app.app in the applications. Does that come with Catalina? I don't remember d/ling it.
Originally Posted by joemikeb
That is no standard cleaner app.
I guess I may have downloaded it off the App store but forgot. So, I am assuming you don't recommend it either.
To be perfectly honest I don't know of an app cleaner/remover/deleter utility that I can unreservedly recommend. At the moment, I use the uninstallation assistant in Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 6 and occassionally run the cleanup utilities in Koingo Software's MacPilot. I chose these mainly because each offers a host of other useful features for someone who likes to fiddle with their system, not because they are superior at uninstalls or cleanup.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56055 09/06/20 07:27 PM
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OK. Well I don't have your brain or your experience, but I do like to clean up the best I can without hurting anything. Mostly now I just manage my files within Finder and use App Cleaner and EasyFind. I've heard too many bad things about the cleaners, so now I steer clear. Thanks JoeMB.


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Originally Posted by plantsower
3. Also, I see cleaner-app.app in the applications. Does that come with Catalina? I don't remember d/ling it.
Originally Posted by joemikeb
That is no standard cleaner app.
I guess I may have downloaded it off the App store but forgot. So, I am assuming you don't recommend it either.
To be perfectly honest I don't know of an app cleaner/remover/deleter utility that I can unreservedly recommend. At the moment, I use the uninstallation assistant in Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 6 and occassionally run the cleanup utilities in Koingo Software's MacPilot. I chose these mainly because each offers a host of other useful features for someone who likes to fiddle with their system, not because they are superior at uninstalls or cleanup.


MacBook Pro - Catalina 10.15.6
Safari 13.1.2
Music 1.0.6.10




iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119
Re: Ready to do Catalina (tomorrow)
joemikeb #56065 09/07/20 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
What do you think of my idea of trying a dynamic deletion of Rita's two extraneous internal partitions while she's booted into Sierra on her internal?
  1. In order to delete a partition the DRIVE must be DISMOUNTED
  2. You CANNOT DISMOUNT THE BOOT DRIVE
  3. Therefore what you suggest is NOT POSSIBLE

This would work IF we were dealing with APFS Volumes, but instead these are PARTITIONS.

I don't remember exactly when, but unless I"ve lost it altogether, Apple bestowed upon us the ability to delete partitions from the drive into which we're booted, albeit with a strong data loss caveat, sometime back in OS X.

And you even suggested it in one of Rita's threads a while back but rejected the idea because of the potential for data loss.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56066 09/07/20 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
That said, thanks for the challenge.

With you on that!!!

Thanks for keeping us sharp, Rita. smile


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56067 09/07/20 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Whatever you decide, I do NOT recommend partitioning. (Okay, I NEVER recommend partitioning unless it is unavoidable.)

You've softened that stance since the advent of APFS volumes.
Not really! The advent of APFS volumes makes Prtitioning easily avoidable. 😜

Volumes aren't partitions in the "container" sense of the word, but they still represent a partitioning of data, just a more tolerable one.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
In anticipation of CCC and SuperDuper! regaining full functionality, and since Rita's got a 1 TB external to potentially use for a Time Machine backup of a 120 GB internal with less than 40 GB of system and data combined, I'll stick with my suggestion that she split the drive in half and reserve 500 GB for Time Machine and the rest (I suggest 5 x 100 GB.) for backup.
If you absolutely have to have a clone how about a 150GB partition for the clone and the remainder of the drive for Time Machine?

Your dislike for partitions is rooted in the fact that you can't anticipate future needs, but in this instance you've overlooked anticipatable future needs.

In addition to a Time Machine partition (and, of course, on the assumption that Mike will get CCC fully up and running), I think Rita should have a partition for a "just in case" clone of Catalina before she upgrades to Big Sur, another one for a clone of her currrent Big Sur installation, and at least one "just in case" empty partition...just in case.

So how about 3 x 120 GB (at the least) and the 640 GB balance for Time Machine?

And finally, why wouldn't you want a clone? (You run CCC.) What are we supposed to do in the event of a catastrophe if we haven't got an Internet connection? Carry a RAID unit around with us?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56068 09/07/20 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Rita, after all your download problems I went looking for an alternative and now with the help of Diskmaker-X-9-Catalina, a donation-ware Applescript utility, and this YouTube video on using it, I have a 16GB thumb drive with the Catalina installer on it. Not that you still need it, but there may be others reading this thread who might be interested.

Now I will have to see if it will work for Big Sur.

That's a bootable installer, I ASSume?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56069 09/07/20 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
To be perfectly honest I don't know of an app cleaner/remover/deleter utility that I can unreservedly recommend. At the moment, I use the uninstallation assistant in Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 6 and occassionally run the cleanup utilities in Koingo Software's MacPilot. I chose these mainly because each offers a host of other useful features for someone who likes to fiddle with their system, not because they are superior at uninstalls or cleanup.

I don't get these uninstall utilities! I've got FindAnyFile set to show both visible and invisible files, and I run it with both the app and developer name, and I don't think any utility can find even as much as it finds without monitoring apps in real time to watch as they create new files.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Ready to do Catalina (tomorrow)
artie505 #56071 09/07/20 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
I don't remember exactly when, but unless I"ve lost it altogether, Apple bestowed upon us the ability to delete partitions from the drive into which we're booted, albeit with a strong data loss caveat, sometime back in OS X.

And you even suggested it in one of Rita's threads a while back but rejected the idea because of the potential for data loss.
If your have a spare bootable drive that is partitioned you are welcome to give it a try, but I think you will find you have to boot from the Recovery drive to do it. If I suggested it, I was having a senior moment at the time. 🤔

Originally Posted by artie505
That's a bootable installer, I ASSume?

Yes

Originally Posted by artie505
I don't get these uninstall utilities! I've got FindAnyFile set to show both visible and invisible files, and I run it with both the app and developer name, and I don't think any utility can find even as much as it finds without monitoring apps in real time to watch as they create new files.
The app you are referring to is no longer available, but I have found that some apps have multiple developer names and spray "stuff" all over the system. I usually find the detritus a couple of years later as orphan or unused files.

INTERESTING SIDELIGHT: I discovered yesterday that Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System balks at deleting App Store applications and directs the user to delete them in Launchpad. Not sure what that is about, but Marcel is one of the very best and oldest developers, so I will take his word and delete those from within Launchpad.

Originally Posted by artie505
And finally, why wouldn't you want a clone? (You run CCC.) What are we supposed to do in the event of a catastrophe if we haven't got an Internet connection? Carry a RAID unit around with us?
Actually I have an iPhone and I can turn on a WiFi hotspot and download the Recovery Drive or Internet Recoverey Drive over the cellular network. I've done it. It is not terribly fast, but it works.

Last edited by joemikeb; 09/07/20 03:22 PM.

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Re: Ready to do Catalina (tomorrow)
joemikeb #56135 09/11/20 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I don't remember exactly when, but unless I"ve lost it altogether, Apple bestowed upon us the ability to delete partitions from the drive into which we're booted, albeit with a strong data loss caveat, sometime back in OS X.

And you even suggested it in one of Rita's threads a while back but rejected the idea because of the potential for data loss.
If your have a spare bootable drive that is partitioned you are welcome to give it a try, but I think you will find you have to boot from the Recovery drive to do it. If I suggested it, I was having a senior moment at the time. 🤔

How to delete a hard-drive partition on a Mac spells out the procedure I had in mind for Rita...no booting into Recovery or even another volume required, but I didn't think erasing the partition first was necessary.

It would probably have required Rita's Sierra partition to have been the first partition on the drive.

I'd experiment, but I've got neither HFS+ capability nor the means to create it.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I don't get these uninstall utilities! I've got FindAnyFile set to show both visible and invisible files, and I run it with both the app and developer name, and I don't think any utility can find even as much as it finds without monitoring apps in real time to watch as they create new files.
The app you are referring to is no longer available, but I have found that some apps have multiple developer names and spray "stuff" all over the system. I usually find the detritus a couple of years later as orphan or unused files.

Find Any File is alive and well.

Indeed, there may be stuff that FAF can't find because we don't know to ask it to search for it, but it will find more of an app's detritus than any app removal app other than one that's tracking file creation in real time.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
And finally, why wouldn't you want a clone? (You run CCC.) What are we supposed to do in the event of a catastrophe if we haven't got an Internet connection? Carry a RAID unit around with us?
Actually I have an iPhone and I can turn on a WiFi hotspot and download the Recovery Drive or Internet Recoverey Drive over the cellular network. I've done it. It is not terribly fast, but it works.

And what if you're in the boonies and have got neither cellular nor Internet service, which is hardly an unlikely situation?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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