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#55145 - 07/09/20 01:52 PM Partitions can get rid of?
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
I have partitions on Mac HD, desktop and laptop, OS and Data, but turns out only using OS.. Anyway to get rid of data partition, so fold into OS one? Less clutter, thanks.

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#55147 - 07/09/20 02:55 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Those are APFS Volumes, not partitions, (there is a significant difference). There are actually four volumes
  1. Recovery
  2. Preboot
  3. System
  4. Data
that comprise a Catalina installation and all are absolutely essential to the functioning of the system. Finder and Disk Utility hide the first two and although you may see the second two the system will not permit you to delete any of them.
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#55148 - 07/09/20 03:42 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks Joe, sadly, I don't understand most of that so I'm discombobulated.. dealing with the new OS glitches Apple has wrought upon Clone software. may post some screenshots here soon....

I know I did some partition few years back on the desktop mac os for data, which I don't use anymore.. Seems Catalina does not like data on the boot Mac HD? so moved it off.

But does Catalina put word data in volumes, or I must have done that? cause see APFS... YEAH, does say word data.. that's not for the partition I made for my data is what saying?

Ah..never heard of APFS until I made all of my drives that for super duper. Still battling this over days... lot faiures / glitches.


Edited by kevs (07/09/20 03:42 PM)

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#55150 - 07/09/20 04:49 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
APFS is a very different from the HFS+ file system Apple has used for decades and there is a hierarchy of different structures.
  1. The base of this hierarchy is called a "Container". The Container encapsulates both the drive hardware and the virtual structures the user sees as the "drive".
  2. Folders and files in APFS are stored in Volumes which are somewhat like Partitions but with significant differences. Where a Partition is a fixed allocation of physical space on the drive, an APFS Volume is limited in size only by the unused capacity of the drive and can grow or shrink as needed to meet the demand. Each of the volumes on a drive can use the entire unused capacity of the drive. A 1TB drive with four volumes will show each volume with a size of 1TB.
  3. Volumes can be encapsulated in "Volume Groups". So in Catalina there are four volumes and one volume Group. Thus you have:
    • APFS Volume Group -- Macintosh HD
      • APFS Volume -- Macintosh HD - Data (this volume contains all your user data and third party applications and is the only volume any user can write to)
      • APFS Volume -- Macintosh HD (this volume contains the operating system and is READ ONLY
    • APFS Volume -- Preboot (This volume is normally invisible and the user has no direct access to its content)
    • APFS Volume -- Recovery (The recovery drive and also invisible)
    • APFS Volume -- VM (created dynamically at boot time and used by the OS, also invisible)
Finder, and therefore all MacOS apps, [/b]only see the Volume Group Macintosh HD[/b] and since only the Machintosh HD -- Data is the only volume you have write access to. When you write to Macintosh HD, Catalina directs it to the Macintosh HD -- Data volume.

Allow me to reiterate
  • YOU ARE USING THE MACINTOSH HD -- DATA VOLUME WHETHER YOU KNOW IT OR NOT
  • DISK UTILITY WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO DELETE ANY OF THE VOLUMES DISCUSSED
  • DELETING ANY OF THESE VOLUMES WOULD BREAK CATALINA BEYOND REPAIR
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#55152 - 07/09/20 10:19 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks Joe this APfs is all new as it's mandatory to format the boot to apfs, (not data partitions that can still be apple journaled) for super dupers workaround due the Catalinas mayhem created by Apple. Here is overview on desktop:
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/rFfDZkXm/Screen-Shot-2020-07-09-at-11-06-25-PM.png[/img]

See at bottom is my bank hard drive I bring in every few months --the last Segate one listed --. The partitions I made years ago are still there, and I did the laborious super duper reformat of Bank Mac HD ok , apfs, and I cloned the Apple Mac HD the data from Main 5TB above to that correspondin partition,

Here is new issue. My desktop version of that hardrive, now called untitled. I just decided to erase it, after accidentally erasing the data part/ partition I made, and then becoming fully discombobulated and I did not see, and still don't see two seperate partitions, on lower final Segate back below for the bank.

What happened to the partitions? When you erase a disk the partitions both go/ get erated? I should now just partition again?

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#55156 - 07/10/20 06:52 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kevs
Thanks Joe this APfs is all new as it's mandatory to format the boot to apfs, (not data partitions that can still be apple journaled) for super dupers workaround due the Catalinas mayhem created by Apple. Here is overview on desktop:
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/rFfDZkXm/Screen-Shot-2020-07-09-at-11-06-25-PM.png[/img]
Apple's mayhem, as you call it, is a giant step forward in so many ways. It is far more flexible and secure and provides a bridge into the future that HFS+ has become to antiquated to support.

Originally Posted By: kevs
What happened to the partitions? When you erase a disk the partitions both go/ get erated? I should now just partition again?
If you erase a DRIVE the partitions are removed as well. With APFS, Apple encourages creating volumes instead of partitioning. Volumes are far more flexible and adaptable. I would clone the boot drive to the Untitled disk using Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper then using Disk Utility create an additional volume on the drive and copy the contents of MAIN 5TB to that volume. Then you could clone that entire drive to your off-site bank drive.

By-the-way my off-site drive is iCloud and it works great and avoids a 350 mile round trip to my bank.
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#55161 - 07/10/20 03:39 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks JOe,

" create an additional volume " but you can do this AFTER I've "clone the boot drive to the Untitled"

I thought you need to make partitions first?

Joe: I'm also paying $10 month for Crashplan what has everything in the cloud too...as another layer. Is your icloud, apple?, and is that less that $10 months and under 4 tB?

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#55162 - 07/10/20 04:02 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
You are not making partitions you are creating APFS Volumes. Two different things with a similar purpose. Volumes can be created and deleted at will without damaging the contents of other volumes on the same drive.

iCloud is an Apple product that is tightly integrated into MacOS, iOS, and iPadOS. You can get
  • 5GB - $0 (FREE)
  • 50GB - $0.99 per month
  • 200 GB - $2.99 per month
  • 2TB - $9.99 per month
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#55163 - 07/10/20 04:21 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks JOe, cloud I think I"m going over 2TB though... so maybe Crashplan is still best bet/ deal.

So what is procedure, same, go into DU, all I remember when I did this few years ago was there was a Partition button, Select that and just doo 500GB for the Mac HD and the rest for the data and thats it?

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#55173 - 07/11/20 06:53 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kevs
So what is procedure, same, go into DU, all I remember when I did this few years ago was there was a Partition button, Select that and just doo 500GB for the Mac HD and the rest for the data and thats it?
  • Do NOT create a partition
  • When you click the partition icon on the tool bar, and the drive is formatted APFS, Disk Utility will suggest you create a Volume instead
  • You do not specify a SIZE for an APFS Volume, It will use as much of the space on the drive as it needs and dynamically expands and contracts to contain what is placed in it.
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#55198 - 07/12/20 06:45 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Joe, I created a partition and it worked fine. 500 GB apfs and rest 4.5 TB mac journaled. ( I did not see any option for anything else, ie volumes, same partition button as always)


Edited by kevs (07/12/20 06:46 PM)

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#55210 - 07/14/20 05:22 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kevs
Joe, I created a partition and it worked fine. 500 GB apfs and rest 4.5 TB mac journaled. ( I did not see any option for anything else, ie volumes, same partition button as always)
This is what I see
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#55211 - 07/14/20 05:36 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
One of us has customized his toolbar, because I also see this.
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#55213 - 07/14/20 08:00 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: artie505]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Interesting Joe/ ARtie.

Well I already the the old partition way and working out thankfully for clone, super duper on desktop. But will make this note. How do you even know all this Joe? If it wasn't for this cloning chaos, I would not even know anything about APFS, and still don't understand 1/2 of it.

That said, on laptop, for some reason, I'm still having enoumouse issue is that after doing the APFS, it wont boot into the clone volumes there, I have no idea why. Will report back.. no problem on my desktop externals backups, but slim 1tB seagates wont boot...so far. Did everything the same.

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#55216 - 07/14/20 11:11 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kevs
How do you even know all this Joe? If it wasn't for this cloning chaos, I would not even know anything about APFS, and still don't understand 1/2 of it.

It would be tempting to say I know all of this because of over 30 years of experience but long before I got into computing professionally (my undergradaute degree is in Animal Husbandry), when I was a pre-teen nerd I was intensely curious about anything and everything new in technology. I quickly learned the really interesting stuff is never state of the art. it is the bleeding edge. I was fortunate enough to spend the better part of my professional career, if not directly creating the bleeding edge, enabling and supporting its creation. My coding skills may be woefully out of practice but the curiosity is still there.

Originally Posted By: kevs
That said, on laptop, for some reason, I'm still having enoumouse issue is that after doing the APFS, it wont boot into the clone volumes there, I have no idea why. Will report back.. no problem on my desktop externals backups, but slim 1tB seagates wont boot...so far. Did everything the same.
If I may make a suggestion: A more complete explanation of a problem is far more likely to reach a satisfactory solution in far less time. Such a description would include...
  • Problem Title (Clone won't Boot on Laptop)
  • Is the problem reproducible (Always. Sometimes, Rarely, Unable, Didn’t try)
  • Detailed steps to reproduce the problem
  • Expected Results
  • Actual results (including manuscript of any error messages or warnings. (screenshots can help)
  • Product version Ie. Catalina Version 10.15.6 Beta (19G71a)
  • Configuration Ie. MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2017, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports), MacOS Mojave 10.14.3
However, with only your uninformative paragraph to go on, I have questions:
  1. Are these clones from the laptop or another computer?
  2. What cloning software did you use to create the clones?
  3. Have you ever been able to boot any computer from these clones?
  4. What has changed since these clones were created?
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#55219 - 07/14/20 12:26 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks Joe, the external hardrive for laptop did boot into the desktop imac ok, so it turns out issue was I had the laptop external in a hub. (per help from super duper too)

I normally would put it direct in, but it's tedious as I have to go get my cordless mouse, as I still have a corded mouse ( though magic keyboard per your influence -- that is working out good)

I'll eventually go cordless mouse when these great mouses die. So hub culprit! Odd in the hub was ok for everything else just not booting into.

That said: The laptop is mid 2012; MacBook air, can I keep it, until one is forced by OS or something not to? I was already shopping… They don’t make 11” anymore, and I like it.. maybe it could go a few more years? I have no need for a new until I'm told I have to get a new one..

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#55220 - 07/14/20 02:36 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
A mid 2012 MacBook Air should be compatible with Big Sur, so if it is running well for you, why not keep it?

I have, what I believe Apple intends as the replacement 11" laptop, a 2020 11" iPad Pro. I love its size, transportability, battery life, screen resolution, and cool features like handwriting recognition that are not available on the MacBook. I also have to say it takes much less effort to manage than my Mac mini.
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#55223 - 07/15/20 11:04 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
A mid 2012 MacBook Air should be compatible with Big Sur, so if it is running well for you, why not keep it?


Apple says only MacBook Airs from 2013 and later are compatible with Big Sur.
_________________________
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 27" iMacs, Macbook Air, macOS 10.15.x,; iPhones, iPods and iPads galore!

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#55224 - 07/15/20 11:06 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks Joe, good call. And I'll just keep it until..... you can't can't right? And that is determined by whether it will work with the next OS? (and how does one know that in advance?)

I got an ipad pro a few years ago. Nice for reading online "magazines". But nothing beats the mac air for great keyboard. I know buy a seperate one for ipad, feels funny.

But.. they stopped 11" macbook air right? Pity.

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#55225 - 07/15/20 12:05 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: Ira L]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks Ira, oh Darn, do you have link for that?

So then proably buy a new 13", as don't see 11" anymore correct?

ANd Joe/ Ira:

1) I did auto update per your suggestion, but if I wanted to keep the 11" as long as possible maybe I should turn that off and wait 8 months after Big Sur comes out?
2) Apple offers $100 trade in for the 11" . Think I should that or could I get more... $250 or $300 on ebay? I think I did get $300 on my last laptop sale...
3- no more 11" macbook airs..

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#55227 - 07/15/20 02:22 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: kevs
1) I did auto update per your suggestion, but if I wanted to keep the 11" as long as possible maybe I should turn that off and wait 8 months after Big Sur comes out?
Why turn off Auto Update? If your MacBook won't support Big Sur, Auto Update won't try to install it, but in the meantime it will keep Catalina and all your App Store apps up to date.

Originally Posted By: kevs
2) Apple offers $100 trade-in for the 11" . Think I should that or could I get more... $250 or $300 on eBay? I think I did get $300 on my last laptop sale...
3- no more 11" MacBook airs..

Apple doesn't necessarily offer the most generous trade-in prices but they are very convenient. My crystal ball 🔮is notoriously cloudy (some unkind people would say it is a moldy-oldy 🙄) and I have no idea what your MacBook Air will be worth 8 months after the next MacBook comes out. I can venture three possible directions its market value could go...
  1. The value of any Mac with Intel processors will go up because of market loyalty to Intel, but I expect that would be short-lived. ⇡
  2. The value of your MacBook Air will take a sharp drop if it will not run Big Sur and because it is rapidly reaching official obsolesence ➘
  3. The value of any Mac with an Intel processor will tank because Apple is switching to their own SoC (System on a Chip) beginning with the MacBook Pro. ⬇︎ (A prospect all of us are facing.)
I think it is safe to say the market value of your MacBook Air (and my Mac mini 😢) will never be higher than it is today. That is NOT a recommendation for buying now! Personally, I will wait until I can get a Mac with an Apple SoC and eat the loss in value of my Mac with Intel inside.
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#55229 - 07/15/20 08:25 PM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Joe, Oh boy, never heard of this "Apple SoC"

OH boy.. just finished brutal stuff with Catalina, which annihilated one of my favorite apps Drag Thing, and old copy of Dreamweaver. Caused havoc with Super Duper and assorted other stuff.. Photoshop, much more.. And now..

Wow, last time they .. well went they went to Intel is was beast of software mayhem.. Same thing?

Ok so the new 13" macbook airs have this, "Apple SoC" or not yet?

What is the ramification of my 27" imac in only 4 years old... was hoping to keep that as long as possible... ... 5 more years.

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#55234 - 07/16/20 05:15 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: keys
Oh boy, never heard of this "Apple SoC"

You haven't been listening! Intel is being dropped for the same reason Apple switched from the Power PC to Intel, they are no longer able to keep up with Apple's performance demands. The next MacBook Pro, coming out toward the end of this year, will have an Apple-designed SoC (System on a Chip), similar to the one that has been in every other device in the Apple product line except the Mac. Over the next two years, all Mac models will be changed some variant of the same Apple SoC currently used in 90% of Apple's products. Microsoft has already successfully converted the entire Office suite to the Apple SoC and Adobe is in process of doing the same. All registered developers at the WWDC in June received a Mac mini with and Apple SoC inside.

The expectation is the transition will take hours to a few days for the vast majority of applications. But it is inevitable that some applications lack a sufficient user base to make conversion worthwhile, the developer will have other more pressing projects or has lost interest and will not be converted. It is equally inevitable those will be someone's favorite standby. That is life in the food chain.

Now is not an optimum time to buy a new Mac.
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#55237 - 07/16/20 09:22 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Ok Joe. So then just hold onto both my laptop and my imac until all replacement ( Apple SoC) are ready. That easy with imac only 4 years old.

I may get caught with laptop running still Catalina for while (macbook airs not ready on (Apple SoC correct?)

BTW today, the laptop, even though on auto update, asked if I want to update to 10.15.6 I thought with auto update it just does that.. or maybe with longer ones,45 min they want an ok..

Ok I understand, the endless march of progress, I do get perturbed with Apple sometimes as planned obsolescence is in their blood.

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#55238 - 07/16/20 09:37 AM Re: Partitions can get rid of? [Re: kevs]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: kevs
Thanks Ira, oh Darn, do you have link for that?


Macworld/MacCentral


Edited by Ira L (07/16/20 09:38 AM)
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