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#52919 - 11/19/19 08:47 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
It really bugs me that evangelicals, who purport to be morally superior to everyone else, embrace this scoundrel. Talk about making a deal with the Devil...

The following quote, from a responder at another site referencing a different aspect of Trump's actions, seems equally applicable here:

"The evangelicals who all support Trump unquestioningly should refer to the reference of an "antiChrist" in their favourite book. This guy is the epitome of the description and of course they are all "blinded by the light.""
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#52920 - 11/19/19 12:39 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: ryck]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I know evangelicals. Most of them don't pretend to be morally superior to everyone else. So that's a straw man.

If anyone considers the current president to be the Anti-Christ, that person has no idea what that word means. Which is a very common problem in today's world and esp. on the internet.

I encourage everyone to think carefully about the words they choose. Impulsivity helps no one. It can be treated with medicine.

Sometime I will address this in another thread: the big mistake of looking for a savior to be president. In America, we don't elect saints or saviors. If you look for a savior, someone will step up and fill that role. That was one mistake the Germans made. They were looking for a savior and they wound up turning their entire country over to a man who had never worked a day in his life. But he said the right words. People who were already half-mesmerized by words. He took it the rest of the way. With words. Don't fall in love with words and ideas. Actions matter most.

Don't romanticize politics. Don't idealize it. If you want romance, try dating. If you want to do good, work for a charity. If you want nice, write a letter to your mother. Politics is a practical business that has very little to do with idealism or morality.

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#52921 - 11/19/19 12:44 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I don't understand how to square this circle: talking about morality on the one hand, and on the other calling for the president to kill himself. If there is anyone with murder on their minds, it's not the president. It's the person who started this thread. How can one claim the moral high ground and yet encourage such an immoral act?

I request that moderators close this thread due to the inflammatory nature of the subject and title. If these are the kinds of thoughts that go through your head, I feel sorry for you.

The excuse "it's a joke" is not a defense because to some people it might not be a joke and irony doesn't go over well on the internet.

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#52922 - 11/19/19 01:58 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: ryck]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
It really bugs me that evangelicals, who purport to be morally superior to everyone else, embrace this scoundrel. Talk about making a deal with the Devil...

This use of the word "Evangelical" is a classic example of how "labeling" can be harmful to the innocent as well as the guilty. As an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) I can attest that most Presbyterians along with Episcopalians, Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Friends, and maybe 100 or more other Christian denominations think of themselves as being evangelical in that we are called to publicly proclaim the "good news" we find in the Christian Gospels. But thoughtless labeling of a particular highly vocal segment of Christianity by the media and others has made mainline Christians reluctant and even ashamed to use the term.

The fact is we are all Christians but because we are human some of us feel called to live out our faith one way, and others another. This labeling has contributed to significant strife within most denominations and resulted in schism within many (most?) to the benefit of none and least of all to the mission of the affected churches not to mention God.

Originally Posted By: ryck
The following quote, from a responder at another site referencing a different aspect of Trump's actions, seems equally applicable here:

"The evangelicals who all support Trump unquestioningly should refer to the reference of an "antiChrist" in their favourite book. This guy is the epitome of the description and of course they are all "blinded by the light.""

"The evangelicals who ALL support Trump unquestioningly…" I take umbrage at this blanket naming and/or blaming. Not ALL evangelicals support Trump, I wouldn't even go so far as to say a majority of evangelicals support Trump. In the first place I don't know the facts and in the second evangelicals are no more homogenous than lets say the Chinese, or Democrats, or Republicans, or English. In fact there is evidence that would tend to indicate they are if anything less homogeneous than the general population in that their churches, ministers, etc. unlike mainline denominations are answerable to no central authority.

Personally I abhor most of what Trump has done and is attempting to do but he is getting away with it because in their zeal to retain or attain power both parties have lost sight of what we elected them to do. They need to quit labeling one another remember that in the long run both parties have the same goals for the country and the only difference is in how to achieve those goals and hopefully can relearn how to work together. Ideally that would begin with the electorate, but in either case it will require leadership on both sides of the political aisle.
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#52924 - 11/20/19 12:21 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: joemikeb]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Thank you for the thoughtful clarification.


Edited by ryck (11/20/19 12:22 PM)
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#52927 - 11/20/19 09:34 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: joemikeb]
Douglas Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Coachella Valley, CA
To think that both parties share the same goals for this country is laughable in the extreme. Unfortunately Trump is the iron clad leader of one of those parties as evidenced by his extremely high support within the party which means his goals are the parties goals.

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#52929 - 11/21/19 05:29 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: Douglas]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
The moderators are gutless, hypocritical punks for not closing this thread. They got pissy at me for much, much less.

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#52931 - 11/21/19 06:06 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: deniro
The moderators are gutless, hypocritical punks for not closing this thread. They got pissy at me for much, much less.

Wrong. The Moderators responded to an unwarranted attack from you, which was:

Originally Posted By: deniro
How did you become a moderator of a tech forum? Why do I have explain everything to you five times? Is English your first language? You have a real knack for misunderstanding what people are saying.

In spite of this attack on one of our Moderators, two of them still tried to help you with your problem which, as I recall, was mostly caused by your failure to read software instructions. At the time I said you were out of line and today I am saying it again with an additional: “Grow up!”


Edited by ryck (11/21/19 06:11 AM)
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ryck

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#52932 - 11/21/19 06:14 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
...."Jane, you ignorant slut"....

This should be universally recognized as a familiar Chevy Chase quote from the early days of Saturday Night Live.

It doesn't make it any less offensive, but taken in the proper context it can be viewed as amusing, sarcastic and even as a positive lashing out at the sexist bias that our society can hold. I view your comments above through this same lens in order to give you the benefit of not being a whiney, name-calling poofter.

I'm not a Mod on this forum, thus I can't make any changes directly.....I personally find the title of this thread unsettling and I'm not comfortable with it, however, the content of the thread (with a couple course-corrections through appropriate Moderating) has remained within the guidelines and to close it would be inappropriate.

If you want to lobby for a title change, I would support that whole-heartedly!

....back into your court....
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#52942 - 11/21/19 11:44 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: MacManiac]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
I'm not a Mod on this forum, thus I can't make any changes directly.....I personally find the title of this thread unsettling and I'm not comfortable with it, however, the content of the thread (with a couple course-corrections through appropriate Moderating) has remained within the guidelines and to close it would be inappropriate.
If you want to lobby for a title change, I would support that wholeheartedly!

The introductory word "maybe" was chosen to indicate that the intent of the title is clearly to be construed as a musing (not a direction or call to action) and the thread to be strictly opinion. For it to be interpreted otherwise is disingenuous.
[Moreover, given that today is the 56th anniversary of one of the most disastrous moments in history, a hiatus in the discussion is perhaps appropriate.]
Moving right along ....

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#52944 - 11/22/19 05:35 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: ryck]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
Wrong. You misread the situation. I'm not the kind of person who "doesn't read the manual". My response was justified given my experience here. I do find that the older I get, the more I lose patience with the antisocial personality disorders who are attracted to the internet and who read between the lines rather than the black letters that contain the meaning. That's always an obstacle to communication, esp. when it comes to people who grew up spending more time watching their thumbs than living in the real world interacting with actual human beings. The only thing that puzzles me at the moment is why I bother responding to a piece of #$!& like you. If this were the real world, you would be on the ground already. Why don't you do everyone a favor and put a gun to your head and pull the trigger?


Edited by deniro (11/22/19 06:09 AM)

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#52945 - 11/22/19 05:42 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: grelber]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
grelber: What's disingenuous is thinking that the word "maybe" makes your psychopathy socially acceptable and your threats something other than a federal crime. You are a piece of #$!& for starting such a thread and if you were even half a man you never would have done it. You would ask the moderators to delete it. Of course they won't. Because they agree with the sentiments. That's why they are gutless hypocritical punks. If the subject had been Barack Obama, you can bet they would have gotten pissy and threatened the poster and said all kinds of nasty things in the name of compassion and tolerance.

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#52946 - 11/22/19 06:17 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: MacManiac]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
MacMania: You should avoid reading "through lenses". You should read, as Kant said, with an unjaundiced eye. You should read the black letters, not the white space between them. There's nothing in the white space. Contextualizing is relativizing. It's a form of distortion and dishonesty, an excuse to state one's opinions, an excuse to insert one's own preferred meaning into the white space rather than read the meaning contained in the text itself. Sneaking name-calling into your example isn't nearly as clever as you think. It doesn't bolster your case and it doesn't make you look impressive. Quite the opposite.


Edited by deniro (11/22/19 06:17 AM)

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#52947 - 11/22/19 07:30 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: deniro
What's disingenuous is thinking that the word "maybe" makes your psychopathy socially acceptable and your threats something other than a federal crime. You are a piece of #$!& for starting such a thread and if you were even half a man you never would have done it. You would ask the moderators to delete it. Of course they won't. ...

Best guess: Your personal insults (name-calling and aspersion-casting) seem likely to result in the moderators' applying FTM's rules of (dis)engagement. Sayonara.

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#52948 - 11/22/19 09:36 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
You've gone from curiously but acceptably idiosyncratic to unacceptably rabid, if not unhinged.

If your problem is others not subscribing to your utopian, moral high road, maybe you ought to find yourself a more receptive audience to preach it to.

And if there's an underlying medical issue eating at you, you're in the wrong troubleshooting forum.

I can hardly wait! tongue
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#52950 - 11/22/19 01:04 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: deniro]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Well, now we really have gone over the line.....the Mods and Admin have been notified and you can anticipate some of that "pissy" response you've been so vocally espousing.

...or you can take a deep breath, re-evaluate the tone and tenor of your posts and rejoin an acceptable conversation without the derogatory and un-called for personal attacks.

FWIW, to be crystal clear, I was NOT blindly reading between the lines in my response to you.....I was offering you a diplomatically prudent means to tone things down. Don't try to second guess my response....it just makes you appear to be as obtuse as the other folks you are viewing through that same filter.

I'm advocating for a title change. Despite Grelber's stated intent for the origins of the title, it still causes me to be uncomfortable....and THAT says a whole lot!
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#52952 - 11/22/19 11:48 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: MacManiac]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
I'm advocating for a title change. Despite [g]relber's stated intent for the origins of the title, it still causes me to be uncomfortable....and THAT says a whole lot!

I still consider the title to be innocuous — unlike the subject of the thread — merely reflecting wishful thinking and ostensibly falling under the notion of freedom of speech.
But if the other moderators and administrators of FTM agree with you — despite the thread and its title having been in largely 'uncontested' play for just over a year now — so be it ... I won't quibble. {sigh}

I'm content in the hope and belief that the malignant imbecilic narcissistic misogynist will soon be dragged from office, kicking and screaming in a strait jacket.

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#52955 - 11/23/19 07:25 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: grelber]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
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#52958 - 11/23/19 08:28 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
I still consider the title to be innocuous — unlike the subject of the thread — merely reflecting wishful thinking and ostensibly falling under the notion of freedom of speech.

I have never been comfortable with the title of this thread and in retrospect I realize I have essentially blocked it. Your right to free speech is unquestioned but in the present violence tinged political environment it could be construed as a threat against the President. Whether it crosses the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" line or not I don't know, but it seems uncomfortably close to me.
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#52961 - 11/23/19 09:23 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
On the other hand, this thread has been up for a full year, so if it's been flagged, we're all under surveillance already, and changing its title would accomplish nothing in that respect.
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#52962 - 11/23/19 11:35 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I just saw this bumper sticker:" I Never Thought That I Would Miss Nixon".
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#52963 - 11/23/19 01:20 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
LOL
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#52964 - 11/24/19 01:13 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I have never been comfortable with the title of this thread and in retrospect I realize I have essentially blocked it. Your right to free speech is unquestioned but in the present violence tinged political environment it could be construed as a threat against the President. Whether it crosses the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" line or not I don't know, but it seems uncomfortably close to me.

I'm not sure how a "musing"* qua "wishful thinking" could be construed as a threat or as a "fire".
(* musing: meditation, thinking, contemplation, deliberation, pondering, reflection, rumination, introspection, daydreaming, reverie, dreaming)

If the thread and its title wasn't sufficiently "uncomfortable" at the outset, it's hard to see why/how it's become so.

In fact, joemikeb was a prime mover in shifting the thread into a parallel discussion about Mike Pence almost immediately after it was posted — without a hint of its being uncomfortable or contentious.

But, as I said and hereby repeat, if it's become so offensive to those who control FTM content, then by all means erase it in its entirety, and let's move on.
(And I'm removing myself from any further discussion on this topic.)

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#52968 - 11/24/19 08:21 AM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: grelber]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Quote:
I'm not a Mod on this forum, thus I can't make any changes directly.....I personally find the title of this thread unsettling and I'm not comfortable with it, however, the content of the thread (with a couple course-corrections through appropriate Moderating) has remained within the guidelines and to close it would be inappropriate.

I would like to apologize for not having expressed my concerns with the title of this thread when it was first started just over a year ago....my concerns are shown by the fact that it took nearly 5 months for me to make my first post to this thread, however, that doesn't mitigate the tacit approval that my silence projected. Waiting another 7 months to rejoin the conversation for the 2nd time did nothing to help resolve my feelings of discomfort and only further added to the tacit approval that existed for a year of conversation.

In my defense, I would say that I have a very strong disagreement with today's trend for trying to make everything "politically correct" and thus I just let my feelings on the title remain unspoken.....I was wrong!

Just because something has been in existence for over a year does NOT make it right. Is this thread out of line? No, not in my view. Are the discussion points presented within this thread always couched in temperate terms, based on seasoned logic and presented without discord? Not a chance....but that is what Moderators are here to mitigate and re-direct back into reasonable compliance with our Board Rules. In my 2 participations with this thread I have tried to set the example for other participants to follow and calm things down when they started to get inflammatory.....it didn't work.

I think this conversation is valid and should continue. I do NOT think the title should remain!

I challenge you to provide the Moderators and Admin with a suitable, non-inflammatory, not necessarily "politically correct" alternative so that we can continue the conversation.

I would propose - "The thread formerly known as...Should 45?"

How 'bout you?

edited to clarify my suggested re-title...


Edited by MacManiac (11/24/19 09:20 AM)
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#52971 - 11/24/19 02:53 PM Re: The thread formerly known as: Maybe 45 ... [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
If the thread and its title wasn't sufficiently "uncomfortable" at the outset, it's hard to see why/how it's become so.

While I have never been particularly comfortable with the implications of the title of this thread, I feel that with the exception of a few brief excursions, the content has remained within bounds. So I elected to let my discomfort remain mine alone, until someone else brought it up. When they did I expressed my agreement. No criticism of the OP or any of the participants is intended or implied.
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