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#51588 - 04/16/19 10:12 PM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: artie505]
JM Hanes Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Originally Posted By: artie505

We're not focusing on this or that specific, and neither the actions of previous administrations nor executive privileges belong in the discussion.

Says who? If I think something is relevant I'm going to bring it up. When most of the biggest complaints against Trump seem to be that he violates civilized/political/constitutional norms, then the actions of previous Presidents and administrations are absolutely on point.

Originally Posted By: artie505
And because the Constitution won't allow him to silence those segments of the media that he doesn't like he's attempting to circumvent it and minimize our First Amendment guaranteed freedoms of speech and of the press by incessantly demonizing their proponents...a lesser shot, but a shot nonetheless.

Suggesting that the President refrain from exercising his first amendment rights seems an odd way to defend the 1st Amendment, but never mind. Have you been listening to the Democrats lately? This President has no monopoly on demonization!

Here's what trying to shut down freedom of speech looks like: Campus radicals harassing conservative black speaker Candace Owens at U. Penn, screaming "Get the **** out of here," among other civilities. And this video is relatively tame, it's just the most recent one that showed up; far worse has been happening to conservative speakers (and Owens herself) on campuses all over the country. Oddly enough, it rarely happens in reverse.

Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm no pollyanna. I understand editorial policies and priorities and slanting news, and I support Tump's right to object and fight back, but NOT in the manner in which he's doing it.

So it's his style you find so deeply offensive. I get that impression from a number of the OK/but comments here.

Originally Posted By: artie505
And in a different vein, I respect people's right to object to unfavorable Supreme Court decisions, and I respect their right to object to the makeup of the Court that handed down those decisions, but when they take issue with the wisdom that resulted in the makeup of that Court, it's another shot across the bow of the Constitution.

The big difference between us is that you came across an idea that disturbed you in a pro-life pamphlet somewhere that nobody ever heard of, while I heard the court packing scheme from leading Democrats and Presidential hopefuls. Monkeying around with the Electoral College, in ways that would also horrify the Founders, seems to be pretty popular among the Democrats too, so to speak.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Do you seriously believe that everything published about Trump in the Washington Post is false while everything that comes across Fox News is fact?

Are you seriously posing that question to me? If so, you apparently know so little about Trump's actual constituency, you've got nothing to work with but politically convenient stereotypes. I do think the Post's coverage has deteriorated since Bezos took over -- and the Nicholas Sandmann defamation suit isn't going to help their credibility -- but I don't even watch Fox News. Do you? Are you an MSNBC junkie? One of the reasons I originally posted here was because everybody seemed to be reading from the same script.

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#51589 - 04/17/19 01:39 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: JM Hanes]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for sharing that with us, Kellyanne. smile
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#51591 - 04/17/19 08:59 PM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: artie505]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
OK, I'm not a Moderator for this forum, but I'm gonna put on my Moderator hat none-the-less.....we're starting to get off the path of civility and logic here, and veering uncomfortably toward the direction of name-calling and bombast. Please take a turn and let's not go there. I know we can do this.....
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#51592 - 04/18/19 01:03 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: MacManiac]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
As Pogo long ago noted: We have met the enemy and he is us ... not to put too fine a point on it. tongue

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#51593 - 04/18/19 02:21 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: MacManiac]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
OK, I'm not a Moderator for this forum, but I'm gonna put on my Moderator hat none-the-less.....we're starting to get off the path of civility and logic here, and veering uncomfortably toward the direction of name-calling and bombast. Please take a turn and let's not go there. I know we can do this.....
Amen to that. Politics has turned into a lot of name-calling, sarcasm, insults, you name it. Politics should be above all that, even if we at FTM can't control it. But, we can set an example and, in a small way, try to return to a tradition of civility in political discourse.
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#51595 - 04/18/19 10:27 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: jchuzi]
freelance Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: London, UK
Brings back fond memories of the old MacFixit Lounge days.
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#51604 - 04/19/19 08:33 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: freelance]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: freelance
Brings back fond memories of the old MacFixit Lounge days.

Should that not be in "facetious quotes"?!
I seem to recall that several out-of-control exchanges resulted in members being banned from MFI despite numerous warnings.
So far that's been reasonably sidestepped in FTM.

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#51605 - 04/19/19 11:56 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
freelance Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: grelber
Should that not be in "facetious quotes"?!

Now where did I leave those? They must be lying around here someplace! Oh, yeah! There they are: " "
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#51607 - 04/20/19 06:50 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Amen to that. Politics has turned into a lot of name-calling, sarcasm, insults, you name it. Politics should be above all that, even if we at FTM can't control it. But, we can set an example and, in a small way, try to return to a tradition of civility in political discourse.

As I recall the rule for POLITE conversation has for millennia been, "Never discuss sex, religion, or politics." There are too many in today's political world who seem determined to inject all three into the political discourse at the same time and sometimes personified in a single individual.

Of course eliminating sex, religion, and politics can make conversation pretty dull. wink

Originally Posted By: grelber
I seem to recall that several out-of-control exchanges resulted in members being banned from MFI despite numerous warnings.
So far that's been reasonably sidestepped in FTM.

Maybe there haven't been any bannings on FTM, but suspensions have been and will be issued when discussions turn personal.

Differences of opinion are acceptable on FTM and expected in politics. Problems arise when one side or the other begins to label the other and/or one or both parties begin to take disagreement as a personal attack. Unfortunately in today's political environment it is pretty hard not to view opposition as a a personal attack because it too often is.
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#51608 - 04/21/19 01:53 PM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: JM Hanes]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Originally Posted By: JM Hanes
Well, I'll back off my hyperbolic statement that almost anyone would have been better, but I think it's very difficult to take about foreign policy in a vacuum. We could all design better Presidents than the ones we have at any given point in time.

Yes, the Chinese take the long view, but if we've had contingency plans in place for countering the Chinese island building, you could have fooled me. I'd have thought it wiser to do some pushing back before all those new military outposts became fully operational.

I you could anticipate unintended consequences they wouldn't be unintended. I personally think the whole "choas at the White House" theme is seriously overplayed. Some of it is simply Trump's management style, to which I'm sure people who have spent their lives in government, in particular, have some trouble adjusting. As for North Korea, Trump has certainly moved the ball further than anyone else has managed to do, and it seems to me that the South Koreans, on the whole, are pretty supportive of what he has been doing.

I'm aware of Middle Eastern history, and the west's role in carving it up to their own satisfaction, and I see no indication that this president thinks that part of the world operates according to the same norms that we do. I have to say that was an illusion that the former administration seemed to hold to. Yes we and our allies under Obama's international leadership allowed ISIS to flourish, and we and our allies under Trump's international leadership brought it to its knees. It is important to distinguish between ISIS and other terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, which I believe is what you were alluding to. ISIS had clear territorial goals, and managed to set up a very effectiely functioning bureaucratic state (which I have recently learned depending on taxation, not things like ransoms, for the bulk of its revenues). That state has now been virtually wiped off the map, and that represents an existential defeat in my book. Could they rise again elsewhere? Only time will tell.

As for NATO, getting recalcitrant members to meet their agreed upon obligations which they have been allowed to shirk for decades was never going to be pretty. I always thought it was the height of irony to hear Europeans disparage the amount of money the US dedicates to it defense budge, while touting the social programs that the US defense umbrella allowed them to pursue. George W. Bush, pushed for Europe to ante up, but also to begin developing specialist expertise, by country, rather than duplicating standard military structures, which hopefully is something that this President will also pursue.

I personally believe that history treat this President considerably better than a lot of his contemporaries do, but of course, that' just my opinion, and I was interested to hear yours. Thanks.


...let's see if we can re-estrablish a dialogue....

My point on the Chinese contingency plans was not that we would prevent their building islands, then populating same with military facilities.....that is their right on their declared territory. We make plans for how to respond, counter and mitigate such actions on their part. Defending the freedom of passage on the international waters adjacent to those facilities is what we do.

There is a very real difference in defining and exercising LEADERSHIP versus management. We need a national leader, not a national manager....managerial styles can be varied, but leadership requires a much more consistent standard. I think we could talk to this subject extensively.

This BBC article highlights what I was expressing about NOT having defeated ISIS (et al)....the rules of international warfare have gone out the window when we as a nation are confronted with a NON-NATIONAL entity such as IS which does not exist within national borders or conform to national mores as established through eons of international conflict from which springs such little tidbits of law as the Geneva Convention. There is no binding treaty to constrain the actions of the loser in that conflict which has been touted as the defeat of ISIS.

I think we share many of the same views concerning NATO....how NATO views us as a nation is dependent on how they view our Leadership in the White House.
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#51613 - 04/25/19 11:37 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
JM Hanes Offline


Registered: 09/03/09

Since Joe Biden has apparently decided to base his entire campaign message on the President's supposed endorsement of neo-nazis and white supremacists at Charlottesville, I decided it was important to address that issue with the President's actual remarks -- in which he specifically excluded neo-nazis and white supremacists from his description of "fine people."

You can find a full transcript at Vox. They left out some of the crosstalk and interruptions, to make it easier to read. I am posting the relevant passage, because I believe it is incumbent on everyone to read it themselves, in toto, before passing judgment.

Quote:
Q: Mr. President, are you putting what you are calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?

Trump: I am not putting anybody on a moral plane. You had a group on one side and the other and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and horrible. It was a horrible thing to watch. There is another side. There was a group on this side, you can call them the left. You have just called them the left, that came violently attacking the other group. You can say what you want. That's the way it is.

Q: You said there was hatred and violence on both sides?

Trump: I think there is blame on both sides. You look at both sides. I think there is blame object both on both sides. I have no doubt about it. You don't have doubt about it either. If you reported it accurately, you would say that the neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville. Excuse me. They didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis. You had some very bad people in that group. You also had some very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me. Are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him. Good. Are we going to take down his statue. He was a major slave owner. Are we going to take down his statue? It is fine. You are changing history and culture.

You had people and i'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists. They should be condemned totally. You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. The press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group too.

Q: You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly?

Trump: No, no. There were people in that rally. I looked the night before. If you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I am sure there were some bad ones.
The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them. You had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest. I don't know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit.

So I only tell you this. There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.

If anyone wants to check the transcript, I'm sure there is video around. I would just suggest looking for video of the entire press conference, and not relying on soundbites.

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#52057 - 07/16/19 12:52 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Rancid, racist America.
Can another civil war be far behind?
Forget Gort. Where is John Wilkes Booth when the nation really needs him? tongue

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#52060 - 07/16/19 08:31 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
I assume you’re thinking about the recent tweet that included the description of the four coloured women senators as troublemakers who “….should go back to the broken and crime-infested places from which they came”. The fact that the sentence structure is grammatically correct, tells me that Trump is getting help with some of his tweets.

Let's face it, the President is a guy who can barely spell and, if he had constructed the sentence, would have said “….….broken and crime-infested places they came from.”

And, why would someone help him with a racist tweet? Simple, because it is not just about racism. It’s also about changing the public perception of the Democratic Party. Trump’s tweet, and the predictably ongoing press coverage based on racism, keep a few of the more radically progressive elements of the party out front. The Republicans love it (and therefore don’t condemn the racism) because the Democrats are seen as a party of socialists who will bring the country down if they form government.

And why would Trump need help with a tweet that has such a nuance? Because he’s too stupid to think of it on his own.
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#52061 - 07/16/19 09:06 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: ryck]
Ira L Online


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
I am sure there were many, but this editorial in the San Francisco Chronicle seems to capture the essence of what is wrong.
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#52063 - 07/16/19 11:31 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: Ira L]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Don't get me wrong....I don't dispute that his tweet was racist. It was, absolutely. However, I think there was a secondary and hidden motive which Trump doesn't have the wit to devise on his own.

And, my suspicion continues based on the grammatical content. When a guy who is borderline illiterate correctly avoids ending a sentence with a preposition, I smell a rat.
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#52064 - 07/16/19 02:22 PM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: ryck]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: ryck
..... I smell a rat.

And, speaking of rats, most Republicans are lined up behind Trump claiming that there is nothing wrong with his recent comments. One wonders how much proof they need before they realize that their leader is a white supremacist.

Note: Since posting, I see some Republicans (3 at this time) are breaking ranks and voting with the Democrats to condemn Trump's comments.


Edited by ryck (07/16/19 02:42 PM)
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#52065 - 07/16/19 05:34 PM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: ryck]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: ryck
Note: Since posting, I see some Republicans (3 at this time) are breaking ranks and voting with the Democrats to condemn Trump's comments.

In the end it was 4 Republicans out of 197 who had the jam to condemn Trump's comments. And, incredibly, the Trump supporters are making claims such as Trump "really meant that where you came from includes places like the Bronx". (Kris Kobach, Kansas).

I assume his remark was directed at other Republican politicians....who else would be stupid enough to fall for that line?


Edited by ryck (07/17/19 05:16 AM)
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#52573 - 10/03/19 08:30 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Forget about impeachment ... too long and complicated a process.

Given his recent announcements/pronouncements and generally bizarre (compared with normal human) behavior, he is clearly mentally incompetent/unstable (read: certifiably insane).
Therefore Congress should invoke Amendment XXV and remove him from the action.
The only downside would be that Mike Pence would be elevated to the presidency, but his generally strict moral compass would preclude the wholesale destruction of the nation which is currently underway.
Don't say nay, say yay!

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#52650 - 10/11/19 02:08 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Luckily, Trump Is an Unstable Non-Genius

His mental deficiencies may save American democracy.

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#52652 - 10/11/19 09:28 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I know a few died in the wool Trump supporters who are becoming disillusioned with him and his administration. Unfortunately rather than moving to another political party their disillusion is so complete that they have lost faith in any form of government and are moving toward total anarchy as their choice for the future of the country. I'm not sure which is the more frightening concept.
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#52667 - 10/12/19 08:26 AM Re: Maybe 45 needs to end it all with a .45 [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
If you are an iOS user and follow this thread you might be interested in something just discovered in the iOS App Store the Dump Trump for Messages sticker pack. A collection of his famous — Make that infamous — Facial expressions and gestures you can include in you text messages. They would give your progressive friends a chuckle and annoy the H#!! Out of your Republican family members. At least that is how I use them.

My thanks to keys whose question got me to looking at iOS sticker packs where I found this.


Edited by joemikeb (10/12/19 08:27 AM)
Edit Reason: Thanks to keys
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