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#51191 - 02/26/19 09:43 AM Time doing a replace, nothing happens.
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Found some lost files, in TM, so happy, did both a replace, and keep both, but nothing happens, it exits and I don't see the restored files. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.


Edited by kevs (02/26/19 09:45 AM)

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#51199 - 02/26/19 03:52 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: keys
Am I doing something wrong?

It is really very hard to say without a detailed description of the steps you followed.

The normal procedure would be:
  1. In Finder navigate to the folder where you would expect the missing file(s) to have been located
  2. Select the folder (see note below)
  3. Enter Time Machine (I assume that is what you meant by "Time")
  4. Using the Time index in the right margin select a point in time when you know or suspect the files would exist
  5. In Time Machine scroll through the files in the folder — you can drill down through sub-folders as well — until you locate the desired file(s)
  6. Select the file(s) in Time Machine then click on Restore
  7. If the file does NOT exist in the folder as of the time you attempt the Restore the file will be placed in the original folder without further ado
  8. If the file DOES exist in today's copy of folder, Time Machine will offer three alternatives
    1. Keep the ORIGINAL file (ie. the file that currently exists in the target folder)
    2. Keep BOTH the current copy and the restored copy of the file(s) in the same folder
    3. REPLACE the file currently in the target folder with the file restored from the Time Machiine backup
  9. In my experience there is little or no delay in the operation and the only way you know it happened is Time Machine quits.
  • NOTE: If you enter Time Machine without previously selecting a folder in Finder it will default to the Desktop Folder.

    The restored file will be in the original folder, and you should be able to locate it using Spotlight.
  • _________________________
    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51205 - 02/27/19 02:02 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Joe, I brought this up today also with the Apple tech.

    He pointed that going into the finder is a no no. I'm been using the finder to grab files from TM, (maybe 5-6 times ) over the last few years. He says doing this and not using the TM interface is 100x worse than not ejecting a drive properly. I never knew this.

    Hence TM is not working, it goes back in time ok, it finds the missing files ok, but then nothing happens with I click replace or keep both.

    I'm running a disk repair (his suggestion), on the TM 8 TB external, 4 hours now and progress bar is not even at any level yet! So it may be toast. If so, he recommends putting that hardrive in the closet, buying a new one and starting fresh if that does not fix it..

    BTW Joe, any progress on servers.. seems like getting worse, these posts timing out...

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    #51207 - 02/27/19 02:53 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    When I said to find the folder using Finder, I should have added "on the boot drive, never on the Time Machine drive." The structure of a Time Machine backup set is VERY complex with all kinds of hard links going forward and backward in time/the backup data set.

    To me, putting a functional drive with a corrupted/damaged Time Machine backup in a closet would be pointless. While it may contain files that you wish you could recover, recovery would be a crap shoot at best. Personally I would erase the drive and start over with a fresh Time Machine backup set and hope that I hadn't lost anything critical.

    I had to do that a few years ago. Since then I have two separate drives I use for Time Machine backups and TM automatically alternates between them. If either drive fails or the backup set on it becomes corrupted, the other drive/backup set is at most an hour older or newer. I might lose one hour of backup data, but no more. When I enter Time Machine the existence of the two data sets is totally transparent and TM sees the pair as a seamless whole. I suppose Time Machine would support adding a third or fourth drive but my data is not THAT critical.

    As to the server issue, my posts over the past few days have been going through pretty normally. Of course that could change with the next post. The hardest bugs to eradicate are intermittent.
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    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51210 - 02/27/19 06:28 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Joe, " recovery would be a crap shoot at best."

    All the times I have dug into the TM finder (and I never knew this was a bad thing to do until today), I have dragged out folders and files easily. I have never not been able to use what I found in there. I actually thought this was a proper 2nd (and to me faster easier way to dig out the files)

    So why not just keep it the hard drive in closet? If an important file is missing after this icloud drive debacle, wont there probably be another one missing discovered in a 6 months?

    But I'm open to your suggestion.

    Joe, you actually have a full TM backup in your TM drive konks out? Wow, never thought of that... I guess it makes sense since TM is very important and non replacable. There is no where else that exist.

    Which brings me to one last question on tangent of backups:

    Do you use Crashplan or Backblaze or another icloud service? Crashplan being so cheap, I signed up a couple of years ago, on advice of the Mac writer Joe Kissle. Now I'm moving to Backblaze per his advice too. This move actually was the culprit of the icloud mess as I throttled high on backblaze and then icloud went nuts.

    Final result: I put all imporant docs off Apple icloud, can't trust it ever again.

    But today another weird thing: Crash plan which has been stable for ages, was taking 90% of CUP in activity montor? Why? Does not make sense, but could be a downside of using these services. Still so cheap and great extra layer. So I may do new post on that.

    Funny, I never even considered adding TM to Crashplan, but now I will....seeing more of the benefit of TM as years go by. I never even used TM in it's first few years of existence! Your opinion on crashplan/ backblaze etc?

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    #51211 - 02/28/19 06:47 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    Other than I don't need to pay for another on-line service, I have no opinion on Crashplan etc. as I have never tried any of them. As far as backups go, I am comfortable with my dual Time Machine backup sets. One of those is on a standard rotating rust drive and as an additional reliability fact the other is on a RAID 5 array and even if one of the four drives in the array fails, I can hot swap another drive into the array and the contents of that drive will automatically be recreated from data on the other three.

    My third line of defense is the iCloud Drive, but I have never had the issues with it that you have encountered. I am inclined to look at my Time Machine backups as a backup to the critical data on the iCloud Drive because I access and modify that data not only from my Mac but also my iPhone and iPad. Which is why I find myself using Pages and Numbers more than NeoOffice (which is far more powerful) because with the cloud based versions of those apps I don't even need an Apple device to access my files.
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    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51214 - 02/28/19 10:24 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Thanks Joe, what does this mean, "I find myself using Pages and Numbers more than NeoOffice (which is far more powerful) because with the cloud based versions of those apps I don't even need an Apple device to access my files."

    Hard to follow.

    So you recommend TM back up. so you clone one each day? Never thought of that, but logic being that the stuff on TM cannot be refound or redone?

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    #51218 - 02/28/19 02:51 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    Originally Posted By: kevs
    Thanks Joe, what does this mean, "I find myself using Pages and Numbers more than NeoOffice (which is far more powerful) because with the cloud based versions of those apps I don't even need an Apple device to access my files."

    There are full featured on-line versions of Pages, Numbers, Mail, & Keynote on the iCloud web page that can be used through any browser on any computer, anywhere you have access to the internet. So if I start a document using Pages on my computer and save the file on my iCloud Drive I can log on from just about anywhere to continue working on the file.

    Originally Posted By: kevs
    So you recommend TM back up. so you clone one each day?

    No I do not clone every day. I only clone before installing an OS update or upgrade, just in case something fails in the process. I have two Time Machine drives one named Local TM and the other named RAID and both are designated in System Preferences > Time Machine as Time Machine drives (see this screenshot). As you can see in the screenshot at 15:23 today Time Machine used the Local TM drive and an hour later, at 16:22, the backup went to RAID. Each of those is an independent backup data set of the boot drive on my MacBook Pro. If I wish to recover a file I enter Time Machine in the normal way and the backup time line that appears is a composite of both Time Machine data sets. There is no no way of distinguishing between the two data sets. If I disconnect either and then enter Time Machine, instead of seeing hourly time intervals the time intervals will be every two hours. If I restore a file it will be restored from the data set associated with that unique time interval. Local TM does not back up RAID and vice-versa as each is a self-contained backup data set.

    Originally Posted By: keys
    Never thought of that, but logic being that the stuff on TM cannot be refound or redone?

    The danger in using Finder to recover files in a Time Machine backup is multi-fold
    1. Time Machine backups are intricately interconnected by Unix hard-links and unlike aliases when a file is moved the link does NOT follow the file, but is in fact broken and since Finder can move files easily it presents a strong element of risk. Given the complex web of hard-links in a Time Machine backup you risk damaging the entire network of links therefore rendering the reliability of the entire backup data set questionable.
    2. If you use Finder to go into a Time Machine backup set to find a file there is no TIME reference. So you might extract a version of the file from an hour ago or an entirely different version from two hours ago or a year or more back in time and there is nothing to tell you which version it is. Which makes the whole point of Time Machine completely irrelevant.
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    #51219 - 02/28/19 03:19 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    "There are full featured on-line versions of Pages, Numbers, Mail, & Keynote on the iCloud web page "

    But Joe, Microsoft has full word/ excel editing capability now too and also one drive.... it's probably more glitchy though than numbers..

    Raid, been reading about forever, (never done it), but isn't Raid now passe with price of hard rives falling over years? OH.. but Raid is a clone...so you don't have to back up your TM

    My TM is screwed up, the repair drive did not help. However TM still finds and works ok up until the restore. So I was able to go into TM, look at all past dates (seems up to 2 years ago on this file), and then surgically go into the finder and copy it to the desktop. I may just continue until it's toast. Ok for now that crazy method. For some reason when I cick restore in TM, just wont work that way..

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    #51221 - 02/28/19 04:52 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    Originally Posted By: kevs
    But Joe, Microsoft has full word/ excel editing capability now too and also one drive.... it's probably more glitchy though than numbers..

    Yes but I don't have Word or Excel on any of my devices and Pages et. al. although not nearly as powerful are FREE.

    Originally Posted By: kevs
    Raid, been reading about forever, (never done it), but isn't Raid now passe with price of hard rives falling over years? OH.. but Raid is a clone...so you don't have to back up your TM

    You need to read a bit more about RAID, It is not passé. I am not using RAID level 5 for speed rather for its greatly increased reliability. Any one of the four drives in the RAID 5 array can fail, but that does not mean the entire data set has failed. I can "hot swap" a new drive in the array and RAID 5 will restore its contents as if there had been no failure. Yes using RAID level 5 does provide a notable increase in I/O speed but to me that is a secondary consideration to reliability. The falling price of drives does not make RAID passé either but it does make RAID far more affordable. I suggest you read this Wikipedia article on RAID and pay particular attention to the different RAID levels and the advantages and disadvantages each. Some are for speed others for reliability I chose RAID level 5 as it offers improved Read/Write speeds along with very high data reliability.

    In my configuration the name I assigned to my level 5 RAID array is "RAID". It is NOT a clone in any sense of the word "clone". It is a stand-alone Time Machine backup data set that is one hour out of synch with the data set stored on "Local TM". Much, in fact most, of the data is duplicated in both data sets but they are NOT and never should be identical.

    Originally Posted By: kevs
    My TM is screwed up, the repair drive did not help. However TM still finds and works ok up until the restore. So I was able to go into TM, look at all past dates (seems up to 2 years ago on this file), and then surgically go into the finder and copy it to the desktop. I may just continue until it's toast. Ok for now that crazy method. For some reason when I cick restore in TM, just wont work that way..

    Your choice. There are files that will show up on a given date but were created long before the error was created. If the file has not been updated since the date of the error all that appears since that date is a hard link to the original file. While this might not be a problem with many individual files, if you ever have to restore your files from that Time Machine data set it is likely you will end up with a lot of garbage on your restored system.

    Personally I would find any system recovered from that data set highly suspect and therefore I would do an erase and start over from the current date.
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    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51223 - 02/28/19 05:45 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Thanks Joe, but if you do an erase, you would lose all possibilities of last two years to find anything you might want from here on in, no? As a guy backs up his TM, I would think you would not be the type just to bag the last two years, when the odds are 95% you would find what you need from on that disk via the finder, no?

    BTW how far back does TM keep going? ie, I only see files from 2017. I would think it would be smart enough to keep as least a few versions of everything from '16, '15, '14, '13..

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    #51227 - 03/01/19 07:11 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    There is no time limit on how long Time Machine backups are kept, but there is a limit to the capacity of the drive on which they are stored. Once the drive fills up Time Machine will automatically start dropping the oldest un-accessed files off the back end of the data set to make room for the new files being added to the front end. The user is notified when this is imminent. So the Time Machine backup can be thought of as a moving window through time and the length of time encapsulated in that window is a function of the capacity of the Time Machine drive, the size of the data set that is being backed up, and the rate of change taking place within the backed up data set.

    I don't know what the odds are that I could successfully recover a specific file from a damaged Time Machine data set. It could range anywhere from 0 to 100% depending on what caused the damage, where the damage occurred in the data set, and the extent of the damage. Even if the file is found in a damaged data set it could be incomplete or otherwise corrupted and therefore useless or worse (I have seen that happen but it not from in a Time Machine backup). To ME the issue is whether or not I could/would trust the data and MY trust level would be low, very low. Your confidence and trust level may be — apparently are — different from mine and therefore we are likely to make different choices.
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    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51228 - 03/01/19 08:52 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Thanks, what I was asking was:

    1- Can I set TM to at least keep a few versions of all years going back from when it starts or is in progress? I would prefer to see at least a few versions kepts from old years, than more from just last two years.

    2- What I was asking is, pretend the TM you could grab version ok via the finder just fine? (I've yet to have issue doing that), what are the odds that you might want a file in the next two years? If I erase the drive then I have no option to grab anything.

    My experience for last few years is everything I grab via finder is fine- perfect, the files all show up ok in TM, just now I can't restore via TM

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    #51229 - 03/01/19 09:31 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    Ira L Offline


    Registered: 08/13/09
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: kevs
    Thanks, what I was asking was:

    1- Can I set TM to at least keep a few versions of all years going back from when it starts or is in progress? I would prefer to see at least a few versions kept from old years, than more from just last two years.


    Not that I'm aware of; Time Machine does what Time Machine does.
    As an example, my TM backup goes to 2015, presumably everything I ever had on my HD. If versions are different from one another, then they should be there. The backup drive is a 4 TB (previously it was a 2 TB) of my 1.2 TB Mac HD.
    _________________________
    On a Mac since 1984.
    Currently: 27" iMacs, Macbook Air, macOS 10.14.x,; iPhones, iPods and iPads galore!

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    #51230 - 03/01/19 10:07 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    Originally Posted By: kevs
    1- Can I set TM to at least keep a few versions of all years going back from when it starts or is in progress? I would prefer to see at least a few versions kepts from old years, than more from just last two years.

    There is no DIRECT method provided in Time Machine for doing that. however...
    • When Time Machine starts dropping files off the backend of the data set it drops the oldest files THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ACCESSED through Time Machine first. So just be sure to periodically recover every file you might want to access in the future.
    • Files are not dropped unless and until you run out of space on the Time Machine drive. Consider using a very large spanned array of high capacity drives so you would be unlikely to ever run out of Time Machine drive space. OWC offers configurations up to 84 TB for under $5,000 and those can be daisy chained.
    • On a more practical level a single 14 TB drive is under $700.
    • If you know with some degree of certainty what files you will be needing to recover consider storing those on data CDs or DVDs instead of in a Time Machine backup set. There are Disk Management and File Search utilities in the App Store that would facilitate organizing and indexing those files.


    Originally Posted By: keys
    2- What I was asking is, pretend the TM you could grab version ok via the finder just fine? (I've yet to have issue doing that), what are the odds that you might want a file in the next two years? If I erase the drive then I have no option to grab anything.

    No argument

    Originally Posted By: keys
    My experience for last few years is everything I grab via finder is fine- perfect, the files all show up ok in TM, just now I can't restore via TM

    If it works for you that is fine. My caution may be because I know too much about what is going on inside.
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    #51231 - 03/01/19 10:08 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: Ira L]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Thanks Ira, I 'think" my hardrive goes back further than 2017, at least '16, so puzzled why none from '16.

    BTW, do you have an opinon on this thread of keeping my corrupted TM? I am able to get all files ok via finder. Not sure I want to erase.

    Joe, thanks again, $700 bit too much now, but 8TB have gone down to $140 which is nice.. ponder the options. leaning towards just rolling with the flawed database for now.. we'll see.

    I did not even use TM 4 years ago! Each year, I am more impressed with it.


    Edited by kevs (03/01/19 10:11 AM)

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    #51232 - 03/01/19 04:39 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    artie505 Online


    Registered: 08/04/09
    Since there doesn't seem to be an electronic solution to your conundrum I'll suggest a mechanical one...

    Why not go to a two TM backup solution similar to joemike's, but with a small HD that you'd swap out for a new one each January 1st for the second backup (as opposed to his RAID array)?

    You'll then have an ongoing backup and a yearly archive to protect against the truncation of the ongoing one.


    Edited by artie505 (03/02/19 02:12 AM)
    Edit Reason: Expand
    _________________________
    The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

    In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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    #51233 - 03/02/19 07:50 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: artie505]
    Ira L Offline


    Registered: 08/13/09
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: artie505
    Since there doesn't seem to be an electronic solution to your conundrum I'll suggest a mechanical one...

    Why not go to a two TM backup solution similar to joemike's, but with a small HD that you'd swap out for a new one each January 1st for the second backup (as opposed to his RAID array)?

    You'll then have an ongoing backup and a yearly archive to protect against the truncation of the ongoing one.


    Annual swaps are certainly feasible, but if one drive dies in its year, your other one may not be too recent. It is possible to swap drives on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. The interval on which you do it would be the most time your data are out of date. This does not require a RAID configuration; just tell TM that each drive is a backup and it does the rest automatically.
    _________________________
    On a Mac since 1984.
    Currently: 27" iMacs, Macbook Air, macOS 10.14.x,; iPhones, iPods and iPads galore!

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    #51234 - 03/02/19 07:57 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: Ira L]
    artie505 Online


    Registered: 08/04/09
    All that - You're always running the risk of any particular drive going south on you. - but it's still one layer of protection more than kevs has got now, and it will give him the tail-end backups he wants.
    _________________________
    The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

    In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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    #51235 - 03/02/19 08:37 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: artie505]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    Originally Posted By: artie505
    Since there doesn't seem to be an electronic solution to your conundrum I'll suggest a mechanical one...

    Why not go to a two TM backup solution similar to joemike's, but with a small HD that you'd swap out for a new one each January 1st for the second backup (as opposed to his RAID array)?

    You'll then have an ongoing backup and a yearly archive to protect against the truncation of the ongoing one.

    Sounds like a reasonable solution. You could then put the small drive in a safe deposit box to provide a third level of security. Those annual drives would be good for anywhere from three to five years before the magnetic fields would deteriorate to the point they become unreliable. (SSDs wouldn't last that long.) Which brings up an issue plaguing data storage technology, there is no reasonably priced media available for archival electronic data storage. The only viable solution at this point is to periodically refresh the data by rewriting it on the media.
    _________________________
    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51240 - 03/02/19 12:06 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    I do a quarterly off site clone for my hardrives.

    Never included my TM drive in this. Another $160 to clone the 8TB I have, so I'll probably pass. So So rare would need it.

    But now it's in my because of Joe. If I used TM a lot more then it would be an easy decision. I think I pull a file out of TM only once every few years tops.

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    #51241 - 03/02/19 01:54 PM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    joemikeb Online
    Moderator

    Registered: 08/04/09
    Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
    As I was filling out my income taxes last year I woke one morning to discover that during the night, gremlins had converted my financial records for the past three years into undecipherable hash. After I got my heart re-started, I entered Time Machine and went back in time to one hour before I had quit working the previous evening and recovered the thrashed data file with the loss of at most several minutes of newly entered data and a few minutes time — not counting the several minutes of total panic when I discovered the thrashed file. To me recovering that one file was worth several orders of magnitude more than all the money Time Machine and its supporting hardware could or would ever cost.

    More than once while beta testing new features I have found myself with an un-bootable system and using the Recovery Drive and Time Machine I have been able to selectively recover the entire system, or just my data files, or my data files and applications and I have never lost more than an hour's worth of data. Yes I could have recovered from a clone but not without significant data loss.
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    joemikeb • moderator

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    #51245 - 03/03/19 02:27 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: joemikeb]
    artie505 Online


    Registered: 08/04/09
    Originally Posted By: joemikeb
    Those annual drives would be good for anywhere from three to five years before the magnetic fields would deteriorate to the point they become unreliable. (SSDs wouldn't last that long.) Which brings up an issue plaguing data storage technology, there is no reasonably priced media available for archival electronic data storage. The only viable solution at this point is to periodically refresh the data by rewriting it on the media.

    Since you mentioned it, I dug out my TurboTax 2009 CD, and judging from "Show Package Contents", which is as far as I even attempted to go with it, there's been no deterioration since 2010.
    _________________________
    The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

    In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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    #51247 - 03/03/19 09:23 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: artie505]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    Joe, fascinating story!

    Defintely makes me now think more about getting that new 8 TB hardrive, but again, you would just erase the current one (even though I saying I'm able to exactrat via finder everything on it from last 2 years?) Instead of putting it in closet?

    And you don't think is a good chance I can just keep using it, and it would be fine for years to come, me user finder method?

    TAXES good story: last week: the icloud drive debacle, the senior Apple rep, told me, lamely, to archive my icloud drive folder, which forced an erase from the imac. (part of the trouble shooting to show engineers) It seemed to populate back that night no problem. Next morning I also had to do one final report for taxes (it's March), and my quicken app, for first time ever did not work. The data file was housed in the icloud drive, documents! Something, for first time ever, went wacky with it. Someone after similar panic I got it back ok... not sure how... to be honest.

    Would not shared that story, as just a tiny part of that whole icloud drive issue, and not related to this even, but how interesting, we both has close calls with Tax info.

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    #51248 - 03/03/19 09:28 AM Re: Time doing a replace, nothing happens. [Re: kevs]
    kevs Offline


    Registered: 12/07/09
    PS, would love to hear more on this:

    "More than once while beta testing new features I have found myself with an un-bootable system and using the Recovery Drive and Time Machine I have been able to selectively recover the entire system, or just my data files, or my data files and applications and I have never lost more than an hour's worth of data. Yes I could have recovered from a clone but not without significant data loss."

    Hard to get my head around some of that, but very interesting.

    How do you not have a bootable system? I don't think that has happened to me... maybe years ago.. not even sure.

    And you use the edrive? -- I've hardly used that so rusty- should practice it.

    And booting from TM? Can't get my head around that either. seems very complicated. I don't even think I have system on TM not sure.

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