An open community 
of Macintosh users,
for Macintosh users.

FineTunedMac Dashboard widget now available! Download Here

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#50356 - 10/28/18 10:04 AM Flu Vaccine Information needed
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
I'm looking for some evidence-based research in support of the flu shot....... stuff that shows it’s low risk, talks about potential benefits, risks of not getting it (particularly with a young family)... that kind of stuff..... Peer-reviewed would be great.

My wife and I have always got the flu shot and can't remember when we last caught the flu. However, our son-in-law is a naysayer and we are advocating for our grandchildren. I've taken a quick look for information to fuel the discussion but it means wading through literally thousands of documents to find anything.

I'm hoping that an FTM member who has a medical background, or who is just someone who's done the research, can point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance.
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50357 - 10/28/18 10:19 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: ryck
My wife and I have always got the flu shot and can't remember when we last caught the flu.

Out of curiosity, how often did you and your wife get the flu before you began getting vaccinated?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#50358 - 10/28/18 11:02 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
It isn’t clear whether your SIL simply doubts the efficacy of flu vaccines, or if he is an anti-vaxxer. Either way, until you get a tailored response to your query, the following links offer a plethora of useful articles on the topic:

- Google search = flu vaccine benefits and risks

- Google search = vaccination risks vs benefits

In addition to the above, it is good to realize that flu vaccines aren’t ‘full-proof’, both because of the way they are developed (flu viruses are moving targets because of their mutability), and because of the different geographical areas (with potentially different flu strains) they target. This means that you may get infected by a flu virus even after receiving a flu shot, particularly if you travel abroad by airplane. Usually, such flu cases will be less severe than the ‘unprotected’ versions, as I personally experienced recently.
_________________________
alternaut moderator

Top
#50359 - 10/28/18 11:23 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: alternaut
... it is good to realize that flu vaccines aren’t ‘full-proof’....

Of course, you mean "foolproof".

I would add to your directives that one or more vaccine monographs (which thoroughly describe the flu vaccine production and efficacy) are also instructive.

More important is the so-called herd immunity effect: there's a point at which if enough people are properly immunized, those that are not will be protected.

Even more important is that as we age, our immune system's responsiveness becomes less robust. That's why the elderly (ostensibly those over 65 and especially those in long-term care facilities) should be getting the high-dose version of whichever flu vaccines are being used for same. Unfortunately, at the present time, the high-dose (= double-dose) versions are only available as trivalent (= containing hemagglutinin of 3 strains of the influenza viruses) vs the standard flu vaccines, which are now quadrivalent (4 strains, this season 2 influenza A and 2 influenza B strains).
So, if you're going to be sociable and in particular have contact with infants and children (whose immunity may be minimal) — note that the first deaths of this flu season occurred in the US South in children — being vaccinated against the flu is an excellent way not to infect and potentially kill your own kin.

Top
#50361 - 10/28/18 12:05 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: artie505]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: artie505
Out of curiosity, how often did you and your wife get the flu before you began getting vaccinated?

My wife can't recall ever having the flu whereas I do remember getting it, and it was more than once. Catching that disease is such a dreadful experience it's probably not possible to forget the event, even if one doesn't remember when. We've both been getting the flu vaccine for close to forty years during which neither of us has been afflicted.


Edited by ryck (10/28/18 12:06 PM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50363 - 10/28/18 12:20 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: alternaut]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: alternaut
It isn’t clear whether your SIL simply doubts the efficacy of flu vaccines, or if he is an anti-vaxxer.

Anti-vaxxer, which really bothers me because of the potential for introducing the disease to the home.


Thanks for these. I really like that such credible sources as the CDC and the Mayo Clinic pop to the top. The CDC link is particularly good, with its subsequent links to associated papers.


Edited by ryck (10/28/18 12:21 PM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50366 - 10/28/18 02:58 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley

Originally Posted By: ryck
Thanks for these. I really like that such credible sources as the CDC and the Mayo Clinic pop to the top.

So, I thought I'd look around and see what the anti-vaxxer arguments might be, and found that the web has many wacko, totally dishonest sites spewing out garbage. And they seem to like quoting "authoritative medical experts". One site has a video with a Dr. Mark Geier claiming that your flu shot will cause Guillain-Barré Syndrome. (The CDC informs us that you are more likely to get that disease as a result of actually getting the flu). I checked Wikipedia and here's part of what they said about Dr. Geier:

"Mark R. Geier (born 1948 in Washington, D.C., U.S.) is a self-employed American physician and controversial professional witness who has testified in more than 90 cases regarding allegations of injury or illness caused by vaccines. Since 2011, Geier's medical license has been suspended or revoked in every state in which he was licensed over concerns about his autism treatments and his misrepresentation of his credentials to the Maryland Board of Health, where he falsely claimed to be a board-certified geneticist and epidemiologist.

Mark and his son, David Geier, are frequently cited by proponents of the now-discredited claim that vaccines cause autism. Geier's credibility as an expert witness has been questioned in 10 court cases. In 2003, a judge ruled that Geier presented himself as an expert witness in "areas for which he has no training, expertise and experience." In other cases in which Geier has testified, judges have labeled his testimony "intellectually dishonest," "not reliable" and "wholly unqualified." Another judge wrote that Geier "may be clever, but he is not credible." "


Edited by ryck (10/28/18 03:07 PM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50367 - 10/29/18 10:51 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I have a relative who is a doctor, and he encourages getting a flu shot every year. Good enough proof for you? Probably not.

I went to CVS last week to ask about it. That's the only pharmacy that will take my insurance. The guy said they had two kinds of flu shots, the strong kind and the weak kind. They were out of the strong one.

By all means, give me the watered down version.

WTF?
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#50368 - 10/29/18 01:59 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: deniro]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: deniro
I went to CVS last week to ask about it. That's the only pharmacy that will take my insurance. The guy said they had two kinds of flu shots, the strong kind and the weak kind. They were out of the strong one.
By all means, give me the watered down version.
WTF?

See my comments in post #50359 in this thread.

Top
#50369 - 11/02/18 01:34 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Add to my previous discussion two recent articles on the flu vaccine:

Should I Get the High-Dose Flu Vaccine?

How to Turbocharge Flu Protection

Also, re post #50359:
"... the high-dose (= double-dose) versions are only available as trivalent (= containing hemagglutinin of 3 strains of the influenza viruses) vs the standard flu vaccines, which are now quadrivalent (4 strains, this season 2 influenza A and 2 influenza B strains)."
Correction:
The high-dose version contains 4 times the antigen of the regular-dose version: 60 µg vs 15 µg of hemagglutinin of each strain.

Top
#50371 - 11/02/18 08:48 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: ryck
I'm looking for some evidence-based research in support of the flu shot....... stuff that shows it’s low risk, talks about potential benefits, risks of not getting it (particularly with a young family)... that kind of stuff.....

In my search for information I found there’s certainly a lot of “over the top” rhetoric about flu vaccines being full of toxins. Some even claim the pharmaceutical companies put antifreeze in it. Antifreeze? Really? One of the biggest exponents of this nonsense is a Jenny McCarthy who claims that vaccines caused her son’s autism. However, she also claims she was able to “cure” him with biomedical interventions and diet.

Ms. McCarthy’s rationale that vaccines cause autism? “If obesity can trigger diabetes, then vaccines can trigger autism.” Ms. McCarthy’s credentials? She was a Playboy Playmate.

I am floored that anybody believes this crap. What I found is:

• Single dose-shots of the flu vaccine and the flu vaccine nasal sprays do not contain mercury compounds. The multi-dose flu shot does contain a preservative called thimerosal, which breaks down into 49% ethylmercury and is used to prevent bacterial contamination of some vaccine containers. It has not been used in vaccines for children since 2001.

Ethylmercury is processed differently by the body and does not accumulate. Methylmercury, is the neurotoxin that can build up in the body and is found in fish.

There is no danger in receiving a vaccine with thimerosal, and it’s been extensively studied, even for cumulative effects on children over several years.


• Formaldehyde is used safely in small amounts in several flu vaccines to inactivate the virus so it cannot cause disease. Formaldehyde also occurs naturally in fruits and vegetables:about 2,000 µg of formaldehyde in an average banana and from 8,600 to 13,200 µg in a pear.

The amount of formaldehyde in flu vaccines ranges from 5 µg per dose (Fluarix) to 25 µg per dose (FluLaval) to 100 µg per dose (Fluzone).

The human body produces formaldehyde for a variety of functions, such as making amino acids, and has about 2,600 µg of formaldehyde per liter of blood. So the tiny amount in the flu shot – which does not stick around and accumulate – makes little difference to your body.


Edited by ryck (11/02/18 08:59 AM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50372 - 11/02/18 09:49 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
MacManiac Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
ryck,

If you could site your references for the findings you've listed in the post above, it would help tremendously.

I too have a relative who is locked into most of the trash info regarding vaccination and I would very much like to offer legitimate alternatives to that garbage info with an eye to protecting the 4 year old that is involved in such decision-making.....
_________________________
Freedom is never free....thank a Service member today.

Top
#50373 - 11/02/18 10:19 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
During the course of your research, have you run into any substantive data regarding people who stopped taking the vaccine once they'd begun?

It seems to me that such info, if available, must be considered when making a decision on behalf of a person who will someday be enabled to reverse that decision.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#50374 - 11/02/18 12:20 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
During the course of your research, have you run into any substantive data regarding people who stopped taking the vaccine once they'd begun?

It seems to me that such info, if available, must be considered when making a decision on behalf of a person who will someday be enabled to reverse that decision.

The vaccine is NOT cumulative. Flu, like many (most?) viruses is characterized by its ability to mutate rapidly into new strains that are either immune to or do not trigger release of the antibodies that worked before. So, other than the preservatives and the inert carrier the contents change every year based on the best medical estimates of what particular strains will predominate in the forthcoming flu season. So the efficacy of this years flu shot this year is independent of the previous year's vaccine and the efficacy of next year's vaccine is independent of this year's.

That is why it is highly unlikely any study such as you suggest would have been conducted and if it had been conducted the results would arguably be meaningless.
_________________________
joemikeb • moderator

Top
#50376 - 11/02/18 01:10 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
During the course of your research, have you run into any substantive data regarding people who stopped taking the vaccine once they'd begun?
It seems to me that such info, if available, must be considered when making a decision on behalf of a person who will someday be enabled to reverse that decision.

The vaccine is NOT cumulative. Flu, like many ... viruses is characterized by its ability to mutate rapidly into new strains that are either immune to or do not trigger release of the antibodies that worked before. So, other than the preservatives and the inert carrier the contents change every year based on the best medical estimates of what particular strains will predominate in the forthcoming flu season. So the efficacy of this year's flu shot this year is independent of the previous year's vaccine and the efficacy of next year's vaccine is independent of this year's.
That is why it is highly unlikely any study such as you suggest would have been conducted and if it had been conducted the results would arguably be meaningless.

What he said.
And I refer again to the 2 articles cited in post #50369 which deal substantially with those issues.

Top
#50379 - 11/02/18 11:43 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
During the course of your research, have you run into any substantive data regarding people who stopped taking the vaccine once they'd begun?
It seems to me that such info, if available, must be considered when making a decision on behalf of a person who will someday be enabled to reverse that decision.

The vaccine is NOT cumulative. Flu, like many ... viruses is characterized by its ability to mutate rapidly into new strains that are either immune to or do not trigger release of the antibodies that worked before. So, other than the preservatives and the inert carrier the contents change every year based on the best medical estimates of what particular strains will predominate in the forthcoming flu season. So the efficacy of this year's flu shot this year is independent of the previous year's vaccine and the efficacy of next year's vaccine is independent of this year's.
That is why it is highly unlikely any study such as you suggest would have been conducted and if it had been conducted the results would arguably be meaningless.

What he said.
And I refer again to the 2 articles cited in post #50369 which deal substantially with those issues.

Responding to both you and joemike...

All that's been said here and in all the sources I've looked at does no more than suggest that stopping taking the vaccine shouldn't put you at greater risk of getting the flu that year or down the road, but I've seen nothing that flat out says so, and for that reason, combined with the number of people who've told me over the years that they got the flu after skipping the shot, I'm astonished that neither the "experts" nor the "crackpots" have undertaken a study, particularly considering the amount of money that's available in this country for - let's be polite and say - dubious research. (I'm not the greatest researcher, but I've thrown the question at Google in a bunch of different ways, and if such a study has been conducted, Google hasn't found it.)

And further, I'll argue that there's absolutely no basis for thinking that consistent results of such a study would be any less meaningful than the consistent results of any other study; they may fly in the face of logic, but rather than negating them, it would make them all the more intriguing.

And add to the equation the fact that the pharmaceutical industry has been historically and notoriously shortsighted about drug testing, and the medical profession has marched in lockstep, and if that doesn't ring a bell, ask a Thalidomide baby, an early cortisone taker, or a woman who's suffered second(?) generational cervical(?) cancer (among many others).
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#50383 - 11/03/18 01:30 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: MacManiac]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
If you could site your references for the findings you've listed in the post above, it would help tremendously.

I too have a relative who is locked into most of the trash info regarding vaccination and I would very much like to offer legitimate alternatives to that garbage info with an eye to protecting the 4 year old that is involved in such decision-making.....

Sure....pleased to help. Here are the bulk of my sources. I know it's not all because, as I was nearing the end of my 'mission' and was finalizing arguments from the research, I stopped keeping a list of links. However, I think you'll find this is a pretty good start. You'll probably spend a fair amount of time at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention as it provides a lot of links too.

Since there is a four year old child at risk, I am sure you'll find the story at my first link quite compelling. It may not be a scientific study but it certainly gives one cause to think in terms of what is really at stake. Good luck, I hope you're successful.

FYI, we had success at this end. Our son-in-law has come around where the two boys are concerned and they are getting the shot. Our grand daughter is only 2 months, which is too young for a shot. Unfortunately our son-in-law is not getting the shot himself. (next project wink )


https://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatter...ntable-disease/

https://vaxopedia.org/2017/12/27/what-are-the-benefits-of-the-flu-shot/

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/flu-influenza/prevention-risks.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/flu-influenza.html

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a18708943/flu-shot-side-effects/

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/guillain-barre-syndrome.html

https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/...Flu-Season.aspx

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3994812/

http://www.who.int/influenza/surveillance_monitoring/updates/2011_11_04_GIP_peer_reviewed/en/

http://www.who.int/influenza/vaccines/use/en/

https://ictr.johnshopkins.edu/news_annou...get-vaccinated/

https://www.hopkinsrheumatology.org/rheumtv/flu-vaccine-answers-common-questions/

http://marshfieldresearch.org

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/risa.12124


Edited by ryck (11/03/18 01:37 AM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Super Duper on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#50385 - 11/03/18 01:46 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
• Anecdotal 'evidence' is not evidence in any meaningful qua scientific sense. Otherwise Jenny McCarthy would be a Nobel prize winner. (As it stands, she's merely an Ignoble Prize winner.) tongue

• Those who claim they got the flu after having been vaccinated fall into various camps:
- They actually didn't have the flu but rather a head cold (rhinovirus). In most cases no laboratory confirmation of which virus(es) were involved was carried out.
- If they actually developed the flu (demonstrated by laboratory confirmation), it is likely that they were already harboring it when they were vaccinated; ergo too late for the flu vaccine to be value.

• Those who claim to have gotten the flu after skipping the shot might or might not have benefited from receiving same. No sensible research is possible in this arena.

• The only ethical research which could tease out all the ramifications of flu shot vs no flu shot is observational, whereas the 'gold standard' for definitive results is prospective research, which would involve designed-in human health risks (some of which would lead to fatalities), which is decidedly unethical. Of course, we could return to days of yesteryear and perform such on unwilling subjects (eg, prisoners) to get our data, but that in itself would introduce experimental biases which would vitiate the results.

• The vaccine manufacturers and the WHO have provided considerably more than a yeoman's service in delineating and defining the influenza issues. And, as illustrated in the articles I referred to, science is about to make a major breakthrough in subduing the influenza threat which will ultimately make annual flu shots a thing of the past.

Top
#50389 - 11/03/18 06:53 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
MacManiac Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Thanks ryck,

Congratulations on your results.....I'm hopeful for my 4 year old grandson in this effort.
_________________________
Freedom is never free....thank a Service member today.

Top
#50437 - 11/07/18 12:38 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Also and otherwise ...

Ancillary to but pertinent to the discussion in this thread, albeit adding to the confusion vis-à-vis interpretation of scientific medical studies is a recent commentary — The Year’s Most Important Study Adds to Uncertainty in Science — in Medscape Medical News. Enjoy.

Top
#50442 - 11/07/18 09:47 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: grelber
Also and otherwise ...

Ancillary to but pertinent to the discussion in this thread, albeit adding to the confusion vis-à-vis interpretation of scientific medical studies is a recent commentary — The Year’s Most Important Study Adds to Uncertainty in Science — in Medscape Medical News. Enjoy.


The link above takes one to a free sign-up for Medscape. Will it be obvious which article you reference if I choose to log in?
_________________________
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 27" iMacs, Macbook Air, macOS 10.14.x,; iPhones, iPods and iPads galore!

Top
#50443 - 11/07/18 11:19 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: Ira L]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Ira L
The link above takes one to a free sign-up for Medscape. Will it be obvious which article you reference if I choose to log in?

It should. In fact, if you access Medscape registration via the link given, once you register, it should immediately open that article for you.
If not, you can search within the site.

(FYI: I registered many years ago because there are several medical interest areas I wanted to be kept current on. I've never needed to re-login [as long as I access the site via my home computer]. That's held true through Mac OS and browser upgrades and updates.)

Top
#50461 - 11/10/18 09:26 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
More than just a 5-Minute Quiz: Influenza

Lots of relevant info (especially to this thread's discussion) and worth the time investment.

Top
#50493 - 11/16/18 09:19 AM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

Top
#50647 - 12/10/18 07:07 PM Re: Flu Vaccine Information needed [Re: ryck]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
You mean Jenny McCarthy, M.D.?

The word "toxins" has taken on magical qualities. Like "organic". These things come and go. Get rid of your television and newspaper. It's all strictly Pavlovian.
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  alternaut, cyn