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#47424 - 01/06/18 03:02 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Did you look at Apple - Support - Downloads? If not, you ought to bookmark it for future reference.
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#47425 - 01/06/18 03:33 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
Did you look at Apple - Support - Downloads? If not, you ought to bookmark it for future reference.

I have indeed and have had it bookmarked for years.
Now, however, when I access it, everything (re)directs to the App Store. (Ergo, my earlier plaint.)

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#47426 - 01/06/18 03:44 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Your search term probably wasn't specific enough. (Or even this.)

A search for just "El Capitan" also works, but you've got to dig a bit to find the security update.

More: Likewise


Edited by artie505 (01/06/18 05:06 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47429 - 01/07/18 07:49 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Anything anyone can add to the previous discussion — to allay my trepidation and paranoia — would be gratefully received in anticipation of my upgrading to El Capitan tomorrow.

From all I've been given to understand, the process should go rather fluidly:
• Open the .dmg file in Applications and then, if necessary, run the Combo Update and Security Update.
• Update to current versions all third-party OS tools (such as Onyx and TinkerTool), as well as Firefox and Thunderbird.
• Pray that everything goes according to Hoyle (who, admittedly, never had a clue about the internet, but who is still the patron saint of the rule book).

Anything else?

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#47430 - 01/07/18 07:55 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Don't forget to check in at the App Store; there will definitely be an available iTunes update...possibly updates to other Apple apps as well.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47431 - 01/07/18 08:04 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
Don't forget to check in at the App Store; there will definitely be an available iTunes update...possibly updates to other Apple apps as well.

Is there some reason to updating iTunes? I'm using iTunes 10.7 and am perfectly satisfied with that. I rarely download anything from online, only CD content if the spirit moves me.
Even in Lion I haven't updated any apps that came with the OS/iMac (mid-2011) since I don't use any of them, even the games.

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#47433 - 01/07/18 08:26 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Is there some reason to updating iTunes?

Given your situation, there's no particular reason of which I'm aware, but you ought to check out the App Store nonetheless, just to see what you're offerred.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47434 - 01/07/18 08:36 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
Urquhart Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: grelber
• Open the .dmg file in Applications and then, if necessary, run the Combo Update and Security Update.

Small nuance: “Install OS X El Capitan” is not a .dmg, but an application. (A download from the Mac App Store would place it in /Applications, so I suggest moving it to /Applications before launching it. It might be that some components rely on that location.) The updates can be run from their mounted .dmg volumes.

After installation, you may notice that:
- Old applications that can no longer run on the current OS, if so detected, may have a light-colored no access symbol over the icon.
- Some incompatible software that might cause problems (not just apps) may get moved to a folder “Disabled Software” or “Incompatible Software” at the root of the boot drive.
- If you have any third party binaries (command line tools for use with e.g. Terminal), and they no longer follow OS protocol (compatibility or security), then those got moved to a special folder (System Integrity Protection quarantine folder) as well.
It is up to the user to remove or update those.

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#47435 - 01/07/18 08:40 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
If you don't use the app there is no point in updating it. The apps bundled with MacOS will be routinely upgraded or updated as part of the OS and that is necessary because some of their code is often used in other places throughout the OS.

You have indicated you use iTunes and if you use it at all it is wise to keep it updated and current if for no other reason than there may be security issues involved. The same is particularly true of Safari. Not only is Webkit, which undergirds Safari, used in MacOS itself, it is also used in many applications including Mail, and there are significant security enhancements in each release.

If you NEVER use the iWork apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie, Garage Band) they can safely be removed from your Mac altogether and recover the storage space for what you do use.

Your dialup connection makes the window of opportunity for exploits to get into your system, but it in no way makes you immune. The best protection against malware is keeping the OS and applications scrupulously up to date.
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#47436 - 01/07/18 08:55 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Urquhart]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Urquhart
Originally Posted By: grelber
• Open the .dmg file in Applications and then, if necessary, run the Combo Update and Security Update.

Small nuance: “Install OS X El Capitan” is not a .dmg, but an application. (A download from the Mac App Store would place it in /Applications, so I suggest moving it to /Applications before launching it. It might be that some components rely on that location.) The updates can be run from their mounted .dmg volumes.

That may be just my misunderstanding of what I'm getting. I was told that once I transfer whatever-it-is, I should put it into my Applications folder and run it. I'll clarify that with the donor tomorrow.

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#47437 - 01/07/18 09:01 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
If you don't use the app there is no point in updating it. The apps bundled with MacOS will be routinely upgraded or updated as part of the OS and that is necessary because some of their code is often used in other places throughout the OS.

You have indicated you use iTunes and if you use it at all it is wise to keep it updated and current if for no other reason than there may be security issues involved. The same is particularly true of Safari. Not only is Webkit, which undergirds Safari, used in MacOS itself, it is also used in many applications including Mail, and there are significant security enhancements in each release.

If you NEVER use the iWork apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie, Garage Band) they can safely be removed from your Mac altogether and recover the storage space for what you do use.

Your dialup connection makes the window of opportunity for exploits to get into your system, but it in no way makes you immune. The best protection against malware is keeping the OS and applications scrupulously up to date.


Good points.

I have no idea what iWork apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) might be.

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#47438 - 01/07/18 09:03 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: grelber
Even in Lion I haven't updated any apps that came with the OS/iMac (mid-2011) since I don't use any of them, even the games.

Just to give you an idea of how much I don't use, following is a list of apps that arrived with my iMac and Mac OS X Lion which I've never opened, much less used, and other than via their names have no idea what they do or what they're for:
Address Book, Automator, FaceTime, Font Book, GarageBand, iCal, iChat, Image Capture, iMovie, iPhoto, Mail, Stickies, and all but 3 of the 23 "utilities".

I did add Adobe Photoshop CS5 (but haven't used it for several years) and Microsoft Office 2011 (primarily for Word, which I use all the time; I haven't used PowerPoint or Excel except to read products of others).

As I said, my needs and wants are minimal.

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#47439 - 01/07/18 09:11 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: grelber
Anything anyone can add to the previous discussion — to allay my trepidation and paranoia — would be gratefully received in anticipation of my upgrading to El Capitan tomorrow.

From all I've been given to understand, the process should go rather fluidly:
• Open the .dmg file in Applications and then, if necessary, run the Combo Update and Security Update.
• Update to current versions all third-party OS tools (such as Onyx and TinkerTool), as well as Firefox and Thunderbird.
• Pray that everything goes according to Hoyle (who, admittedly, never had a clue about the internet, but who is still the patron saint of the rule book).

Anything else?

Vis-à-vis Time Machine: I've been told to disconnect my TM hard drive prior to upgrading, then once everything has been installed and tweaked to reattach the hard drive and back up the changes.

Any specific recommendations in this regard?

And will Recovery HD be functional (and backed-up) by so doing?

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#47440 - 01/07/18 09:27 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
...will Recovery HD be functional (and backed-up) by so doing?

Recovery HD isn't a part of OS X, rather it's a completely separate animal and will NOT, therefore, be backed up by Time Machine, nor will TM's running or not running during its installation have any effect on it...SHOULDN'T under expected circumstances, anyhow.

You can see in this Terminal excerpt that Recovery HD is a volume unto itself.

Code:
Artie's-MacBook-Pro-2:~ artie$ diskutil list
/dev/disk0 (internal, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *500.3 GB   disk0
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk0s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS HD                      99.5 GB    disk0s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk0s3
   4:                  Apple_HFS HD2                     299.9 GB   disk0s4
   5:                  Apple_HFS HDx                     50.0 GB    disk0s5
   6:                  Apple_HFS HDz                     49.6 GB    disk0s6

Artie's-MacBook-Pro-2:~ artie$ 

I'm not aware of any means to back up a Recovery HD other than with Carbon Copy Cloner.

Any other pertinent TM input will have to come from elsewhere.


Edited by artie505 (01/07/18 09:33 AM)
Edit Reason: Add Terminal info
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47441 - 01/07/18 10:18 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
confused If it's not part of the OS, then how can the iMac access it?! ⌘-R has to be part of the OS. Clearly I'm missing something — maybe even my mind.

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#47442 - 01/07/18 10:32 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
confused If it's not part of the OS, then how can the iMac access it?! Clearly I'm missing something -- maybe even my mind.

Surely NOT your mind!

It can be accessed because it's a bootable volume that resides on the iMac's drive.

My Terminal excerpt shows that I've got 4 separate volumes - HD2, HDx, HDz, and Recovery HD - all of which are completely independent of my OS (on volume HD), and the same way I can boot into volume HDx (a bootable clone of HD...the others are either data or empty), I can boot into volume Recovery HD.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47443 - 01/07/18 11:02 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
There is a very low level system in your Imac that is responsible for identifying the boot OS and keystroke commands such as Command+R and Option which allows the user to change the desired boot volume. Only when the boot volume is identified does this same low level loader begin to inmate the boot sequence to load the operating systemt.

The Recovery drive is no more or less you than another bootable partition on the drive with its own VERY small, very limited special purpose OS installation. In function and purpose it is the same as the bootable install CDs of old but far more flexible as it can install the very latest version of the OS and less flexible because it ONLY installs the most recent compatible OS version.
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#47444 - 01/07/18 11:21 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
artie & joemikeb: Many thanks for the input.

To me a 'command' is an operation, and 'operation' is part of an 'operating system', which makes the machine function.

I just (still) don't understand the jargon (such as volume, boot volume, partition).

[When the term 'volume' was used way back when (for example, in OS 8) and I wanted to update Netscape, it was stated clearly that it should be installed on a separate 'volume', otherwise bad things would happen. So I could never update the browser for fear of something dire happening. I had to wait until I installed a whole new OS (ie, OS 9). Then the same was true in OS 9 with Mozilla. In Mac OS X all I have to do is trash the outdated version of Firefox, then install the latest version.
I'm really no further along now in terms of understanding what's going on than I was then. My only salvation has been to get the feeling that OS management has advanced to the point that even numskulls such as I can't harm things too badly unless we really try ... which is why I'll never use Terminal.
I guess now that I'm amazed that I was able to restore Lion and all my files via TM back in 2013.]

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#47445 - 01/07/18 01:14 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Believe me you are not alone in understanding or even knowing there are volumes, boot volumes, and partitions and even among those who should know better the terms are too often used incorrectly.

The first thing you must realize is there are LOGICAL constructs such as a VOLUME that are "seen and used" by applications and PHYSICAL devices (Hard Drives, SSDs, CDs, etc. that actually contain or store the data. To simplify the software developers task, the activities at the Physical layer are carefully hidden from what is going on at the Logical level. Because the Logical Volume is often closely linked to a Physical storage media/device there is an unfortunate tendency to equate the two which most people understand but can lead to confusion. NOTE: It is possible to create a Volume inside a file — that is what a .dmg, Sparse Image, or Sparse Disk Bundle is and each of those can mount just as if it were a volume on a physical device.

A BOOT VOLUME is simply a volume containing a bootable copy of an OS. There may be multiple boot volumes on a computer, but there must be at least one so the computer can run.

A PARTITION is a division or subdivision of a physical device. Storage devices can be divided into multiple partitions by a process called partitioning, but to be useful a partition must have an associated VOLUME. (Disk Utility creates the volume automatically when it creates a new partition. Because of this pairing the terms Partition and Volume are often incorrectly used synonymously. Thus leading to more confusion.
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#47446 - 01/07/18 03:54 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The Recovery drive is no more or less you than another bootable partition on the drive with its own VERY small, very limited special purpose OS installation. In function and purpose it is the same as the bootable install CDs of old but far more flexible as it can install the very latest version of the OS and less flexible because it ONLY installs the most recent compatible OS version. (Emphasis added)

You're selling Recovery HD short.

Quote:
macOS Recovery installs different versions of macOS depending on the key combination you use while starting up. Turn on or restart your Mac, then immediately hold down one of these combinations:

Command (⌘)-R: Install the latest macOS that was installed on your Mac, without upgrading to a later version.*

Option-Command-R: Upgrade to the latest macOS that is compatible with your Mac.**

Shift-Option-Command-R (Requires macOS Sierra 10.12.4 or later): Install the macOS that came with your Mac, or the version closest to it that is still available.

* If you're selling or giving away a Mac that is using OS X El Capitan or earlier, use Command-R to make sure that the installation isn't associated with your Apple ID.
** If you haven't already updated to macOS Sierra 10.12.4 or later, Option-Command-R installs the macOS that came with your Mac, or the version closest to it that is still available.

More: As a matter of fact, the ability to install the most recent compatible OS version is apparently new to High Sierra.


Edited by artie505 (01/07/18 11:37 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47447 - 01/07/18 05:14 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Believe me you are not alone in understanding or even knowing there are volumes, boot volumes, and partitions and even among those who should know better the terms are too often used incorrectly.

The first thing you must realize is there are LOGICAL constructs such as a VOLUME that are "seen and used" by applications and PHYSICAL devices (Hard Drives, SSDs, CDs, etc. that actually contain or store the data. To simplify the software developers task, the activities at the Physical layer are carefully hidden from what is going on at the Logical level. Because the Logical Volume is often closely linked to a Physical storage media/device there is an unfortunate tendency to equate the two which most people understand but can lead to confusion. NOTE: It is possible to create a Volume inside a file — that is what a .dmg, Sparse Image, or Sparse Disk Bundle is and each of those can mount just as if it were a volume on a physical device.

A BOOT VOLUME is simply a volume containing a bootable copy of an OS. There may be multiple boot volumes on a computer, but there must be at least one so the computer can run.

A PARTITION is a division or subdivision of a physical device. Storage devices can be divided into multiple partitions by a process called partitioning, but to be useful a partition must have an associated VOLUME. (Disk Utility creates the volume automatically when it creates a new partition. Because of this pairing the terms Partition and Volume are often incorrectly used synonymously. Thus leading to more confusion.

Thanks for that; I'm going to memorize it and maybe even remember it when I need it.

I'll question "It is possible to create a Volume inside a file....", though. Didn't you mean "folder"?

More: I've always used "boot volume" to indicate the "bootable volume" into which I boot by default, and I kinda like that usage...or can you suggest a better term?


Edited by artie505 (01/07/18 05:31 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47449 - 01/08/18 06:26 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I'll question "It is possible to create a Volume inside a file....", though. Didn't you mean "folder"?

No I mean file. When an image file "mounts" it is assigned a "mount point" in the system and has its own volume and directory structure. A folder on the other hand is dependent on the volume and file structure of the volume it is on. (In APFS you would not be too far off the mark to think of the drive volume as an image file, but that is a different can of worms I am still trying to get my head around and would rather not open here.)

Originally Posted By: artie505
More: I've always used "boot volume" to indicate the "bootable volume" into which I boot by default, and I kinda like that usage...or can you suggest a better term?

Your usage I suspect is by far the most common, and there is nothing wrong with it. When I am thinking critically I am inclined to think in terms of "Bootable Volume" and "Current Boot Volume". But that is just me.

By the way Artie, thanks for filling in the key combinations recognized by the Recover Drive. I was writing that on my iPad Pro and couldn't pull up the appropriate Help file.


Edited by joemikeb (01/08/18 06:32 AM)
Edit Reason: add thanks
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#47458 - 01/08/18 01:56 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I've spent most of the day preparing to install El Capitan.
I did a complete TM backup and then a bootable clone (via CCC) to my external HD (also used for TM) which CCC informed me was successful.
When I tried to find the clone, no luck. I have no idea where it might be hiding and how I can access it to test whether or not it's bootable.
When I go to Startup Disk, all that shows up is my main HD and my backup HD with no apparent way to choose/find clone.
Any hints?

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#47460 - 01/08/18 03:36 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Assuming you were using Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, when you started the application you would have been prompted for a Source and Destination. What volume did you choose as the Destination (note you could have specified an image file as the Destination) Unless you changed the name of the destination volume it would have a name like Main HD Clone.

You cannot create a clone on the drive you are cloning so it would have to be on the backup drive or another patriot/volume on Main HD. If you cloned to an image file it is not bootable and would not show up in Startup Disk.
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#47461 - 01/08/18 04:00 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I've spent most of the day preparing to install El Capitan.
I did a complete TM backup and then a bootable clone (via CCC) to my external HD (also used for TM) which CCC informed me was successful.
When I tried to find the clone, no luck. I have no idea where it might be hiding and how I can access it to test whether or not it's bootable.
When I go to Startup Disk, all that shows up is my main HD and my backup HD with no apparent way to choose/find clone.
Any hints?

If, as I'm understanding it, your backup HD has got only your Time Machine backup and your clone...maybe some data, too, on it , selecting your backup HD should get you booted into your clone, because TM backups aren't bootable.

Clarifying, Startup Disk is recognizing your backup HD as bootable only because it's got a bootable volume, i.e. your clone, on it.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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