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#47380 - 01/04/18 07:47 AM Downloading Mac OS
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I'm pretty sure this issue has been discussed before, but I'd like to know if anything 'new' has shown up.

I can gain access to broadband internet but not with my iMac. (For example, right now I'm using Internet Explorer on a PC with broadband connection.)
Is there any way I can download, say, Mac OS X El Capitan to a USB stick for installation on my iMac (in the same way as updates are accomplished for the various OSs)?
Or is it still the case that I'm SOL?

I can't even find a standalone Mac OS X.

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#47382 - 01/04/18 08:59 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
A DuckDuckGo search for "MacOS 10.11 download" turned up a large number of hits including this one from Apple. Several of which should do the trick for you.
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#47385 - 01/04/18 10:48 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
A DuckDuckGo search for "MacOS 10.11 download" turned up a large number of hits including this one from Apple.

The Apple article indicates that I would have to connect to the Mac App Store to download the installer directly and then continue to have Internet access to install El Capitan. So such would disallow my acquiring a free-standing El Capitan from there.
I've been trying to access https://itunes.apple.com/app/os-x-el-capitan/id1147835434?mt=12 for the past 10 minutes, to no avail. So that all seems to be a dead end.

ADDENDUM — A couple queries:

I just tried conducting my own search for "MacOS 10.11 download" via DuckDuckGo.
The only apparently legitimate possibility is: OS X 10 11 - Free downloads and reviews - CNET Download.com at download.cnet.com/s/os-x-10-11/ .
Is this a reasonable/reliable source?

Should I be able to gain access to El Capitan and try to install same over my current Lion, will all my additions to Lion including third-party apps over the years be retained, as well as all my files?


Edited by grelber (01/04/18 11:12 AM)
Edit Reason: Addendum

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#47386 - 01/04/18 02:12 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I just tried the URL and to my surprise it automatically opened the App Store app to attempt the download, so it would not be possible to use that link on a Windows computer and even if you tried it on your Mac the download could take over 100 hours to complete over a 64Kb dialup connection. tongue

As to the CNET download site I am not aware of any recent complaints, but I have no personal experience with them in years.

An upgrade installation of a later OS version over a previous one SHOULD retain all of your settings, data, and third party applications. A "clean" However as with any upgrade or update there are caveats:
  • What SHOULD happen and what DOES happen are sometimes two different things so before upgrading or updating the OS wise users will always make a fresh clone of their system and test it to be sure it works correctly before making the upgrade or update.
  • Some applications may have to be updated or replaced for compatabiity with the upgraded OS and I don't know oaf any reliable compatability lists.
  • It is essential that all "disk repair" utilities such as Diskwarrior, Drive Genius, and Techtool Pro and cleanup utilities such as OnyX, Cocktail, TinkerTool, etc be updated to the specific version compatible with the version of MacOS being installed.
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#47387 - 01/04/18 02:33 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
An upgrade installation of a later OS version over a previous one SHOULD retain all of your settings, data, and third party applications. A "clean" However as with any upgrade or update there are caveats:
  • What SHOULD happen and what DOES happen are sometimes two different things so before upgrading or updating the OS wise users will always make a fresh clone of their system and test it to be sure it works correctly before making the upgrade or update.

I know nothing about clones or how to make such, much less test such. So that's a non-starter.
Why wouldn't my TM backup be adequate? Or would it?

As for the CNET site's reliability and safety, I guess I'll just have to see what others have to say before checking it out.

Any idea just how large the Mac OS X 10.11 is (so that I might have a properly sized USB stick to download to)?

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#47388 - 01/04/18 05:16 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
Urquhart Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: grelber
Why wouldn't my TM backup be adequate? Or would it?

Yes that would be adequate.

Originally Posted By: grelber
As for the CNET site's reliability and safety, I guess I'll just have to see what others have to say before checking it out.

Too many ads and fake download buttons, not enough good reviews, lots of attention for mediocre software -- but I haven’t seen signs of unreliability. I couldn’t find a real download link there though: the download button redirected me to Apple’s site.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Any idea just how large the Mac OS X 10.11 is (so that I might have a properly sized USB stick to download to)?

My copy of 10.11.6 is 6,221,633,348 bytes, the largest of the system installers. Checksums for ‘InstallESD.dmg’ payload inside the package: MD5: 06f6e4a7b1996c542cbda28eb5f7a8f2 SHA-1: 7739e3f62080000da5d28efa689c53976112a262 SHA-256: 0b8156957236865e170bc7784bf067ba8b5b231ad8ce45790865e16c9c653615

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#47389 - 01/04/18 05:52 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
Any idea just how large the Mac OS X 10.11 is (so that I might have a properly sized USB stick to download to)?

I downloaded the MacOS 10.13.2 combo installer this morning and the .dmg came in at 3.02GB so I would think an 8GB memory stick/thumb drive would be more than adequate.
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#47393 - 01/05/18 01:12 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Urquhart]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Urquhart
Originally Posted By: grelber
As for the CNET site's reliability and safety, I guess I'll just have to see what others have to say before checking it out.

Too many ads and fake download buttons, not enough good reviews, lots of attention for mediocre software -- but I haven’t seen signs of unreliability. I couldn’t find a real download link there though: the download button redirected me to Apple’s site.

So that means I'm pretty much back to square one. To upgrade I'm going to have to go to the Mac App Store which means having broadband connection.

On the off-chance that I'm able to find access to such, as I recall, such a download of an installer followed by online installation is fraught with problems, not the least of which is the deletion of the copy of the OS once installed. How might one circumvent this so that one retains the full OS in the event of an event?

What's the best way of protecting the new OS via Time Machine, so that Recovery HD can be run without going online? And by that I mean something I can understand and implement (which means nothing to do with Terminal, which I don't understand and which scares me).
[I have absolutely no access to an Apple store or anything approximating one which doesn't entail driving 8-10 hours to another province.]

And what do I do with all the backups on TM created from the previous OS? Or is it legitimate just to keep them there?

The more I think about all of this, the more uncomfortable I get with even thinking about upgrading — which I now think will nuke everything I've put into my machine over the past 6 years.

The only things I use my machine for is to access internet for email (writing and storing), carry out a few business transactions on a regular basis, read newspapers, review FTM, and such. I don't use or have use for 95% of what my machine has installed and is capable of. (I just noticed that there's actually an App Store app installed ... whatever that might do.) {sigh}

At this point I pretty much feel doomed. The whole reason I got into Macs from the git-go was because the GUI. I could rarely figure out how to get past the C-prompt on a PC, despite my working in Fortran II in the '60s and running batches on mainframes in the '70s.

And to think that back in the '90s and '00s I convinced my sister to get a Mac and get online and then used to troubleshoot her computer and her computer behavior. Since then she's blown right on by me and 'dances the light fantastic' on the internet with her latest iMac, iPhone, and other devices. (And we're talking about folk in our 70s.) Now, every time I want to do something like take a screenshot or some other trivial procedure I have to consult my 900-page, 1.4-kg/4-lb Missing Manual! {sigh} {sigh}


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#47394 - 01/05/18 01:44 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
...such a download of an installer followed by online installation is fraught with problems, not the least of which is the deletion of the copy of the OS once installed. How might one circumvent this so that one retains the full OS in the event of an event?

Originally Posted By: grelber
...so that Recovery HD can be run without going online?

macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection.

You're confusing d/l'ing an installer with an Internet recovery.

Once you d/l the installer, the installation process doesn't require being on line; an Internet connection is required for installation ONLY if you're doing a recovery.

I'm not sure from where you got that "fraught with problems", but
  1. your Time Machine backup is your saver in the event something goes wrong, and
  2. macOS Recovery may (depending upon your circumstances) offer additional options.
Originally Posted By: grelber
The more I think about all of this, the more uncomfortable I get with even thinking about upgrading — which I now think will nuke everything I've put into my machine over the past 6 years.

joemike's "An upgrade installation of a later OS version over a previous one SHOULD retain all of your settings, data, and third party applications." is painfully accurate. "Painfully", because "SHOULD" is prudently and necessarily cautionary...and moot as long as you're backed up...as you are.

Originally Posted By: grelber
(I just noticed that there's actually an App Store app installed ... whatever that might do.)

It connects you to the App Store, from where you could d/l El Cap if you had an adequate Internet connection.


Edited by artie505 (01/05/18 01:56 AM)
Edit Reason: Add link
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47395 - 01/05/18 02:24 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I don't understand most of that (but thanks for the info).

Back in 2013 I successfully restored my OS and files to a new hard drive from Time Machine backup without having to go online.
[I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that restoring the OS from TM would also include the (invisible) Recovery HD, since that was part of my original installation and ostensibly would have been backed up as part of my disk. I was able to use my Recovery Disk Assistant thumb drive to gain access to Recovery HD (since that's all the RDA contains). At least the RDA = Recovery HD is safely stored on the thumb drive – and works as nicely as though it were ensconced on a hard drive partition. It just would have been nice to have it on the hard drive too.]

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#47398 - 01/05/18 08:57 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Boiling it down, then,
  • you only need a high-speed Internet connection to d/l the installer (or to use macOS Recovery in the event of a catastrophe),
  • upgrading your current OS SHOULD perpetuate all changes you've made on your new iMac since you bought it, and
  • your Time Machine backup is the answer to your other questions (although specifics are beyond my experience).
Regarding your 2013 experience, Carbon Copy Cloner is the only means of which I'm aware to back up a Recovery drive (which is not part of your original installation other than in the sense that "it came along for the ride").
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47399 - 01/05/18 09:01 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Merci, artie, for all the input.

My frustrated quandary may have reached a resolution: a colleague advises that he can provide me with a USB stick containing the whole megillah of El Capitan.

The only thing I will have to do post-installation is to separately download and install all the system and security updates associated with same. With regard to that, can anyone provide a list of the various updates I should install? And is there anything I should look out for? (Apple's El Capitan info is a tad confusing when I look at it.)

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#47400 - 01/05/18 09:16 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Sounds good! cool

One you've upgraded to El Cap, all you've got to do is visit /Applications/App Store or  > App Store... and click on "Updates", and Apple will tell all.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47401 - 01/05/18 09:55 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Clarifying my post #47394...

Originally Posted By: grelber
...so that Recovery HD can be run without going online?

macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection, except, of course, for recovery from a local source.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47402 - 01/05/18 11:18 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artie505
macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection.


That's not always the case.

I've done it several times before but I'm not confident which route I took at the time. I believe it was by creating a "normal" partition and restoring the recovery EFI image itself to the partition. This basically created what looked like install media rather than a recovery partition or installer app, and it was content to run without an internet connection.

I would also suggest that people go to the app store and download the installer from there rather than doing a recovery by other methods, including internet recovery. Reason is, the installer the app store serves up is universal, and will run on practically any compatible mac made before that day. The recovery partitions on drives tend to be machine specific, or at least limited to a subnet of macs and specifically not to macs made after that one. So the one that goes on my recovery service drive is always downloaded from the App Store. (and periodically needs to be replaced with a newer download, to maintain compatibility with newer macs) For example, the OS that's installed by the recovery partition on your 2015 iMac may only support iMacs, and then only ones made on or before Dec 2015. Trying to boot the OS after installation on another model may get you a panic. (sometimes you can 'fix' the installation by running the latest combo updater, but that doesn't always work)
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#47405 - 01/05/18 12:14 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Let me reiterate. Updating the OS seldom deletes or damages your data, but until someone is able to repeal Murphey's Law there is a minute but finite chance of data loss. The fact you have your RDA and a current Time Machine backup is arguably the best protection you can have.
  1. Reinstalling the OS is the ONLY way to restore the Recovery Drive to your HD and restoring the Recovery Drive. I cannot personally verify this but that may require installation on a clean HD(?)
  2. Given you have a Time Machine backup even that should not cause you to lose any data — it will just take a few hours longer to complete the restore.
    • NOTE: This requires installation of the OS not restoring the OS from the Time Machine backup.
  3. Unless you can find a disk copy of the El Capitan installer you will have to have broadband internet access to install or reinstall your OS. frown

Don't underestimate yourself. You already went through most of this back in 2013.
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joemikeb • moderator

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#47406 - 01/05/18 12:39 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
[*]Reinstalling the OS is the ONLY way to restore the Recovery Drive to your HD and restoring the Recovery Drive.

There are several hits with google for steps on how to do this, here's the first:
http://osxdaily.com/2016/07/03/recreate-recovery-partition-mac/

I had to do this from time to time at my previous job when I was cloning data from a full or failing hard drive to another one. After doing the clone, we started noticing the new drives didn't have a recovery partition on them. Of course not, I didn't copy that... ok then... and created my own solution using bits and pieces of information available at the time. (years ago, maybe from here? http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20120316132618149)

The key is to use a small utility that for some reason exists only on recovery disks/partitions/apps called "DMTEST"

You also need to have an actual recovery disk or recovery partition of course, or a DMG copy of something like that, for it to create from.
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I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

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#47409 - 01/05/18 04:06 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
Urquhart Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: grelber
a colleague advises that he can provide me with a USB stick containing the whole megillah of El Capitan. The only thing I will have to do post-installation is to separately download and install all the system and security updates associated with same. With regard to that, can anyone provide a list of the various updates I should install? And is there anything I should look out for? (Apple's El Capitan info is a tad confusing when I look at it.)

If he downloads a fresh copy, it will be the latest iteration: 10.11.6, but without the later security updates.
If he copies an older installer earlier than 10.11.6, you’ll need the 10.11.6 Combo Update (1.5 GB) that'll work on any version 10.11.x. You can (have him) download it manually with any browser or use the App Store app.
I believe the security updates include all previous security updates (cumulative), so you’ll only need one: Security Update 2017-005 El Capitan (630.4MB). You can (have him) download it manually with any browser or use the App Store app.

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#47410 - 01/05/18 04:47 PM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Urquhart]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
In addition to what you've mentioned, there will definitely be an available iTunes update, an iPhoto update, I think, possibly an iWork (if it still goes by that name) update or two, and I can't guess what else.

grelber's best bet will be to rely on the App Store for complete guidance, and if it's not too unwieldy, he can simply click to install them all and walk away for a few hours.

Good point about the Combo, though, because the App Store will offer him only the 10.11.6 Delta if he has 10.11.5.

Originally Posted By: Urquhart
...you’ll need the 10.11.6 Combo Update (1.5 GB) that'll work on any version 10.11.x. You can (have him) download it manually with any browser or use the App Store app.

As far as I've ever been able to tell, Combo updaters aren't available from the App Store; they must be d/l'ed from Apple's update website.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47415 - 01/06/18 12:25 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Virtual1]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: artie505
macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection.

That's not always the case.

I've done it several times before but I'm not confident which route I took at the time. I believe it was by creating a "normal" partition and restoring the recovery EFI image itself to the partition. This basically created what looked like install media rather than a recovery partition or installer app, and it was content to run without an internet connection.

I don't think we're on the same track; by macOS Recovery I mean the three options under Start up from macOS Recovery > 1 in How to reinstall macOS.

Originally Posted By: Virtual1
I would also suggest that people go to the app store and download the installer from there rather than doing a recovery by other methods, including internet recovery.

That's only possible up to Yosemite, which is the last version of Apple's OS that you can RE-download from the App Store, which makes archiving Installer.app for succeeding versions against possible future need a good idea.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47417 - 01/06/18 03:41 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
Urquhart Offline


Registered: 08/10/17
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: artie505
That's only possible up to Yosemite, which is the last version of Apple's OS that you can RE-download from the App Store.

At first I think I misunderstood what you said, as later versions can be re-downloaded (re-directed through the App Store app) without much fuss: OS X El Capitan (10.11.6), macOS Sierra (10.12.6), macOS High Sierra (10.13.2).
But now I think I get that OS X Yosemite (10.10.5) direct link gives a “not available” message, but you can find it and re-downoad it via the Purchased tab in the App Store app (if you downloaded it before with that Apple ID account). Same for older OS X versions, all the way back to Mac OS X Lion (10.7).

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#47418 - 01/06/18 04:00 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Urquhart]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
That's correct, but you didn't misunderstand, rather I misspoke; I wasn't aware that post-Yosemite OS's were available from Apple...only that they no longer appeared in your "Purchased" tab as did earlier versions.

Thanks for the links.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47421 - 01/06/18 08:47 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: Urquhart]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
While preparing for my 'transition' to El Capitan by downloading (as .dmg and .zip files) appropriate versions of various software such as Firefox, Thunderbird, TinkerTool, etc, I discovered that no longer can one acquire so-called manual downloads from Apple's website — such as precisely the items potentially required: 10.11.6 Combo Update and Security Update 2017-005 — which now requires direct access to the App Store, thus complicating the whole thing (given my internet access). Merde! Scheiße! ¡Mierda! Говно!
Life was so much easier before.

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#47422 - 01/06/18 09:16 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
...I discovered that no longer can one acquire so-called manual downloads from Apple's website — such as precisely the items potentially required: 10.11.6 Combo Update and Security Update 2017-005 — which now requires direct access to the App Store, thus complicating the whole thing (given my internet access).

Urquhart's post #47409 includes links to both of those updates directly from Apple...no App Store. (I don't think Combos have ever been available from the App Store...only Deltas.)

Do you know for a fact that your colleague isn't giving you 10.11.6? If not, don't worry about the Combo until you find out.

Thinking back to my 64k days during which I endured several 1 GB d/l's from Apple, the security update (630 MB) and the Combo (1.5 GB) would be PIAs, but not major problems, for you to d/l yourself.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47423 - 01/06/18 10:55 AM Re: Downloading Mac OS [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: grelber
... I discovered that no longer can one acquire so-called manual downloads from Apple's website — such as precisely the items potentially required: 10.11.6 Combo Update and Security Update 2017-005 — which now requires direct access to the App Store, thus complicating the whole thing (given my internet access).

Urquhart's post #47409 includes links to both of those updates directly from Apple...no App Store....

Indeed, those items are available for manual download as given by Urquhart — for which many thanks — I just didn't check that before heading to Apple's website, where everything directs to the App Store and no option is given for manual download of updates or even direction as to where such might be found. So, unless one knows about DL1885 and DL1945, it's a closely guarded 'secret'. tongue

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