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#47338 - 12/30/17 04:19 PM Goodbye Safari!
Bob_00001 Online


Registered: 01/03/10
The latest versions of Safari probably work okay, but they are available only to users of the latest version of MacOS. Can't upgrade to the latest Safari without upgrading to the dreaded High Sierra. For those of us who prefer to use the older stable versions of MacOS we're stuck with slow versions of Safari, subject to regular crashes, or unable to load certain web content. That's left me switching back and forth between Safari and Firefox for quite a while.

A couple of weeks ago, I downloaded the latest update to Firefox, and I'm very impressed. It's a complete rewrite of the browser that appears to have addressed all of the things that have prevented me from making it my main browser over the years.
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MacBook Pro 15" (2015)
Sierra 10.12.6

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#47339 - 12/30/17 04:29 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bob_00001
The latest versions of Safari probably work okay, but they are available only to users of the latest version of MacOS. Can't upgrade to the latest Safari without upgrading to the dreaded High Sierra.

That would be incorrect if you weren't running Yosemite. (There's no way for you to get a later version of macOS other than HS?)

As per Safari version history...

OS X 10.11       El Capitan      11.0.2    (December 6, 2017)
macOS 10.12   Sierra              11.0.2    (December 6, 2017)
macOS 10.13   High Sierra      11.0.2    (December 6, 2017)

Which is not to say that I haven't had to switch to Firefox any number of times to access websites that Safari (the latest version at the time) couldn't reach...including to buy my daughter's new MBB, because Safari couldn't access the Apple Store. THE APPLE STORE, FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!!!
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47340 - 12/30/17 06:36 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: artie505]
Bob_00001 Online


Registered: 01/03/10
Originally Posted By: artie505
There's no way for you to get a later version of macOS other than HS?


Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't really tried. I wouldn't even be using Yosemite if it hadn't come installed on my last MacBook Pro. I was perfectly happy with Snow Leopard. Apple hasn't released anything since then that had any feature that I needed or wanted. Just clutter.
_________________________
MacBook Pro 15" (2015)
Sierra 10.12.6

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#47342 - 12/31/17 12:05 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I stuck with Snowy for as long as I could, because I'm pretty much in agreement with your assessment of the more recent versions of OS X/macOS, but I broke down and upgraded
  1. primarily because Safari was getting to be a nuisance, and I totally dislike Firefox, and
  2. because I was simply falling too far behind - I went from Snowy to Yosemite, a jump of 4 versions. - and caught up with it before it caught up with me.
If you're covered by AppleCare, you might try calling and seeing if they'll accommodate you with an earlier OS than High Sierra, but alternatively, you can take a look on Ebay, where a market for non-current OS's has proliferated as a result of Apple's failure to make them available.

When I was in your position I archived the installers for the versions of OS X/macOS that followed Snowy until I no longer needed them, and l very strongly suggest that everyone who's passing on upgrades do the same...just in case.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47343 - 12/31/17 04:46 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: artie505]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
Heh! I jumped from Snow to El Cap! My reasons for sticking and upgrading were pretty much as you described.

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#47411 - 01/05/18 05:40 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: artie505]
Bob_00001 Online


Registered: 01/03/10
Originally Posted By: artie505
...I broke down and upgraded ... primarily because Safari was getting to be a nuisance...


It seems that Safari is the time-bomb that Apple uses to force people to upgrade to a new OS.

Originally Posted By: artie505
...you can take a look on Ebay, where a market for non-current OS's has proliferated as a result of Apple's failure to make them available.

I may check that out, but I'm happy enough with Yosemite now that I'm using the new Firefox. So, I may wait until Apple releases a more stable OS, and upgrade to that. My past experience has been that for every Mac that I've ever owned, I do no more than one or two upgrades from the OS that the machine came with. So, I usually jump 3 or 4 versions whenever that happens. After that, it's time for new hardware.


Edited by Bob_00001 (01/05/18 05:41 PM)
_________________________
MacBook Pro 15" (2015)
Sierra 10.12.6

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#47412 - 01/05/18 06:17 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bob_00001
Originally Posted By: artie505
...I broke down and upgraded ... primarily because Safari was getting to be a nuisance...

It seems that Safari is the time-bomb that Apple uses to force people to upgrade to a new OS.

I think that's unfair to Apple.

Browsers don't unilaterally lose their ability to access previously accessible websites, so all Apple is doing is keeping pace with whatever has caused the failures, not the other way around as you're suggesting.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47414 - 01/05/18 11:13 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: artie505]
Bob_00001 Online


Registered: 01/03/10
Except that new releases of Firefox and other software will still run on older versions of MacOS, but when Safari fails to keep up with new types of web content, you can't update to a newer version of Safari without also updating to a new version of MacOS.

Most major application developers (at least the ones that I deal with) are pretty good at making sure their new app versions will still work on older versions of MacOS. I don't see Apple as being very concerned about this. The latest version of Firefox still supports OSX 10.9, and it seems to me that the previous version supported much older versions of MacOS than that. I remember checking the minimum system requirements on a previous Firefox version, and being very surprised by that.

I wouldn't have a problem with Apple's constant pressure to update, if they put more emphasis on bug fixes and reliability, rather than on memory gobbling features that I have no use for.
_________________________
MacBook Pro 15" (2015)
Sierra 10.12.6

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#47416 - 01/06/18 01:34 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
The current version of Safari is supported by OS X/macOS 10.11, .12, & .13, two fewer OS versions than support the current version of Firefox, so the difference between the two isn't all that big, but I've got no idea what, if anything, NECESSITATES there being such a difference in the first place, since Safari and Firefox are both built on WebKit.

Perhaps someone with knowledge of the details can fill us in.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47419 - 01/06/18 05:55 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
The current version of Safari is supported by OS X/macOS 10.11, .12, & .13, two fewer OS versions than support the current version of Firefox, so the difference between the two isn't all that big, but I've got no idea what, if anything, NECESSITATES there being such a difference in the first place, since Safari and Firefox are both built on WebKit.

Perhaps someone with knowledge of the details can fill us in.

Firefox does NOT and never has used Webkit. Like SeaMonkey, Galeon, Camino, Flock and several other browsers it is based on Mozilla. Chrome, Opera, and Slepnir use Blink (a fork of Webkit) while Microsoft Edge and Universal Windows Platform use EdgeHTML. Webkit is used in Safari, iCab 4, Omniweb, Android, and several Adobe products.

The compatibility issue in Safari is due to the fact webkit is deeply integrated into both MacOS and iOS and used not only by a variety of other Apple and third party apps but even the OS itself. Firefox does not need to concern itself with OS and third party apps compatibility.
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#47420 - 01/06/18 07:30 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for the correction...don't know where I got the erroneous impression.

Thanks, too, for the explanation.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47462 - 01/08/18 04:30 PM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
Bob_00001 Online


Registered: 01/03/10
Here's a little update, since I've now been using Firefox for several weeks as my primary browser. That in itself is a bit of a miracle. When I've tried this in the past, I've usually given up in less than a week, and gone back to Safari.

This time, the experience has been much better. There were a few glitches initially. These were due to some rather curious default settings in Firefox's preferences, and have been resolved.

The biggest problem seems to be the way the preferences are described and organized. So, there doesn't always seem to be a direct correlation between the ones in Firefox and the ones in Safari.

The only remaining problem that I'm experiencing is that I'm not getting auto-login to various sites such as this one. I know that it's a cookie issue, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Firefox seems to be deleting cookies whenever I quit the application, even though I've specified that they should remain until they expire. It seems that automatically clearing browser history is also clearing cookies. If anyone knows the fix for this, please let me know. Meanwhile, I'll keep trying different settings.

Edit:
I figured it out. I overlooked the Settings button for the "Clear history when Firefox closes" option. Under Settings... you can choose whether or not to clear cookies. I turned that off, and now things work as they should.


Edited by Bob_00001 (01/08/18 04:41 PM)
_________________________
MacBook Pro 15" (2015)
Sierra 10.12.6

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#47466 - 01/09/18 12:47 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bob_00001
The biggest problem seems to be the way the preferences are described and organized. So, there doesn't always seem to be a direct correlation between the ones in Firefox and the ones in Safari.

I use Firefox only in the few situations in which Safari doesn't work for me, so I haven't gotten too deeply into its settings, but I have looked at its Security & Privacy pref pane, and it confuses the hell out of me!

I find its settings convoluted, confusing...almost contradictory in some instances...the result, I suspect, of Mozilla's fear of infringing on others' design copyrights, which, not to denigrate their concept, seem to be more of an issue in computer software than in any other industry because of the proliferation of apps with similar functionality.

I'm almost (but no more than that) ) tempted to d/l a bunch of browsers that have been built on different platforms to catalog how far fear of infringing has driven their designers.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47468 - 01/09/18 01:35 AM Re: Goodbye Safari! [Re: Bob_00001]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Bob_00001

Edit:
I figured it out. I overlooked the Settings button for the "Clear history when Firefox closes" option. Under Settings... you can choose whether or not to clear cookies. I turned that off, and now things work as they should.

You beat me to it. That's exactly the 'fix'.
(I've been preoccupied with my own issues involving upgrading and only just came across yours with respect to Firefox.)
I find Firefox just superb since way back when (eg, Netscape, Mozilla).
When you get comfortable with it and want to check out all the various configurations you can manipulate, go to about:config and have a boo.

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