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#46495 - 09/29/17 01:26 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
It looks like your original problem was similar to the one in this Apple Discussions thread. Thanks for posting your issues, Artie. I'm glad that I haven't taken the plunge yet. Is this your post? It has a different user name.


Edited by jchuzi (09/29/17 01:27 PM)
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Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#46496 - 09/29/17 02:40 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I'm sorry, but I'm not clearly following your sequence.

Here's a link to HS Clean Install by iMore

Is that what you did?

BTW, I'm not having any issues with HS. And as I have an SSD, my local volume is now using APFS.
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MBP15 i7 (2017) - 1TB PCIe-SSD - 10.14.3, iPhone X & iPadPro 11 WiFi, Watch4

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#46503 - 09/30/17 12:27 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
It looks like your original problem was similar to the one in this Apple Discussions thread. Thanks for posting your issues, Artie. I'm glad that I haven't taken the plunge yet. Is this your post? It has a different user name.

I used to be of the same mind as you, Jon, but since beta testers like joemike now do the heavy lifting, I don't mind giving them a belated hand, particularly since SSDs, USB 3, and Fios have made undoing any repercussions miraculously easier than it used to be.

I've done a lot of beta-testing over the years, and I'd beta-test macOS too, but I'm not enough of a user to do a quality job, and I don't think Apple is ceding betas to find out about TextEdit and Mail. tongue

(Nope, that's not me Jon; I'm exclusively an FTM guy. laugh )
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#46504 - 09/30/17 12:54 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: pbGuy
I'm sorry, but I'm not clearly following your sequence.

Here's a link to HS Clean Install by iMore

Is that what you did?

That's not a very well thought out article...incomplete at the least, but I follow its drift, and that's not what I did, because the procedure it describes results in an APFS High Sierra on an internal SSD while I wanted mine HFS+.

So, in order to get a HFS+ High Sierra on my internal SSD I first ran the installer on an external volume, where it installed as HFS+ by default, and then cloned that volume to an internal HFS+ volume.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

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#46509 - 09/30/17 06:16 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Sorry guys you are already behind the release cycle. I installed MacOS 10.13.1 beta this morning. Unfortunately the release notes are apparently no yet available so I have no idea what is new or improved, just that it installed without a hitch and is running smoothly.
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#46510 - 09/30/17 07:24 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
May I assume that you did not have Artie's issue of disappearing passwords and keychain?
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Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#46512 - 09/30/17 07:38 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
According to Apple's Note (1st paragraph's reference is convoluted, but makes the point) Prepare for APFS in High Sierra, APFS is said to be the default format for internal SSD drives and one can not opt out of the conversion. ...So, it would seem this may be what's defeating your effort to clone your external, HFS+ HS back to your internal SSD.
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#46514 - 09/30/17 07:52 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
May I assume that you did not have Artie's issue of disappearing passwords and keychain?

Not a bit of it in any of the numerous almost bi-weekly beta updates or in upgrading my wife's computer or our server.

FULL DISCLOSURE: My results may be colored by the fact my Keychain and Safari settings, autofill data, even my Desktop and Documents folders are on iCloud and shared by my MacBook Pro, iPhone, and iPad. It is possible those could be lost of overwritten in an upgrade or update, but I would never notice it because they would immediately be available and restored from iCloud as soon as I entered my Apple ID and password. (You wouldn't believe how easy that makes it to recover after a "nuke and pave" upgrade/update, disaster, or setting up a new device. The only thing missing are third party and app-store apps.)
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#46520 - 09/30/17 08:55 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I have three clones and a Time Machine backup. If necessary, could I recover from them instead of an iCloud backup (which I don't have)?
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#46522 - 09/30/17 09:08 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
If by
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
could I recover from them
you mean could you run Migration Assistant against them the answer is yes. I would recommend installing fresh copies of the apps however, because of potential compatibility issues. For example an incompatible version of SoftRAID rendered my system un-bootable by causing immediate Kernel Panics every time I attempted to boot the system.
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#46523 - 09/30/17 09:10 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: pbGuy
According to Apple's Note (1st paragraph's reference is convoluted, but makes the point) Prepare for APFS in High Sierra, APFS is said to be the default format for internal SSD drives and one can not opt out of the conversion. ...So, it would seem this may be what's defeating your effort to clone your external, HFS+ HS back to your internal SSD.

APFS is the default, can't opt out of, format for High Sierra installed directly onto internal SSDs, but HS on an internal SSD is not required to be APFS at the moment, although that may (will probably?) change down the road.

I had no problems installing HS on my internal SSD as HFS+, my only critical problem was with its Keychain Access component.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46575 - 10/07/17 12:52 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Update: I just installed the macOS 10.13 Supplemental update and re-migrated my user account, but with no improvement in the Keychain Access situation.

I forgot to mention at the outset that my login items weren't perpetuated when I upgraded, nor did System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items respond to the appropriate check-boxes, and the update didn't fix that either.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46581 - 10/07/17 11:21 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Artie I have come to believe you either do not hold your mouth right or there is a little black cloud over your head tat follows you from computer device to computer device?
shocked confused wink

I have upgraded and updated two non-beta computers around here to High Sierra and I have several friends and relatives who have done the same and there have been no problems with Keychain, Keychain Access, or Login Items — with one exception. A friend had one login item that did not transfer. It turned out the associated app was not compatible with High Sierra. One possible difference, as far as I know all of these different computes were linked to Keychain on iCloud, certainly all the ones here are. Whether that has anything to do with anything or not

🤷‍♂️

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#46585 - 10/07/17 10:30 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Just call me Joe.

(Or refer to my avatar. grin )

I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does?
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46586 - 10/08/17 04:47 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does?
They are all the same.
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#46632 - 10/15/17 02:44 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does?
They are all the same.

Well, that called for an experiment, so I
  • made my keychain password the same as my login password in my Sierra boot account,
  • booted into High Sierra,
  • used migration assistant to import the changed Sierra boot account,
  • logged in to the newly imported account,
  • and VOILA! There, just like magic, was my complete keychain.
Bug identified and reported...ball's in Apple's court..

More: Oops! Although I logged out and back in with no issues, I forgot to restart to see if things remained copacetic, and I also forgot to make my keychain and login passwords different and see if things remained copacetic after a restart...and I've erased the volume.

Oh, well, another project.

Sidenote: The first time I logged in to the newly imported account, all my login items launched as expected, but when I logged out and back in they didn't launch and were gone from System Prefs > Users & Groups > Login Items.

Bug reported to Apple


Edited by artie505 (10/15/17 07:03 AM)
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46638 - 10/15/17 03:35 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra and migrated my data from my boot Sierra volume after changing my keychain password to match my login password, and all was good...for about 5 minutes: my keychain was populated, and my login items launched as expected.

I then changed my keychain password so it differed from my login password, shut down, started up, and although my login items launched, my keychain was depopulated. frown

Keychain Access in High Sierra is pretty clearly choking on the differing login and keychain passwords, but I've got no idea what's up or, as the case may be, not up with login items.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46760 - 11/01/17 01:18 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Just did a clean install of 10.13.1, and it appears to have been worked on, but although my different keychain password was perpetuated this time around, my keychain was again unpopulated.

Also, my auto-login pref somehow got changed, and I had to enter a password to log in.

frown

Feedback sent to Apple.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46761 - 11/01/17 02:33 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Artie I wonder if you are running into one of the new security provisions built into MacOS 10.13 and iOS 11? Perhaps one we are not cognizant of or one we do not yet fully comprehend all of its implications?

Just to be sure I am following correctly
  • When you say, "my keychain", are you referring to the Login, iCloud, or System keychain?
  • Do you have iCloud Keychain activated?
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#46763 - 11/01/17 03:41 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
By "my keychain", I mean my login keychain. (My System keychain remains locked after I've unlocked my login keychain.)

I haven't got iCloud activated.

I'm leaving my hat hung on "bug", because it appears that Apple has actually been working on the problem.

Also, the ability to have different login and login keychain passwords is a pretty powerful and useful security feature, and I can't imagine Apple breaking it as part of a new security scheme. Well, on the other hand.... confused crazy
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46764 - 11/01/17 03:51 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: artie505

Also, my auto-login pref somehow got changed, and I had to enter a password to log in.

Although I haven't yet upgraded to High Sierra, I have noticed that software updates that require a restart in Sierra make me enter my password after the update is completed. Subsequent restarts do not (my preferences are also set for automatic login).

Did you restart after this? What happened?
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#46765 - 11/01/17 03:56 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I threw in the towel instantly...couldn't see any reason to try a restart, but this was my third or fourth High Sierra clean install, and it's the first time I was asked to enter my password when starting up.

It's actually the first time I've EVER been asked to enter my password when starting up since I set the pref about a million years ago.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#46778 - 11/02/17 01:51 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
Ira L Online


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: artie505
I threw in the towel instantly...couldn't see any reason to try a restart, but this was my third or fourth High Sierra clean install, and it's the first time I was asked to enter my password when starting up.

It's actually the first time I've EVER been asked to enter my password when starting up since I set the pref about a million years ago.


Yeah, about 875,000 years ago things changed. wink

I was asked for my password too, upon restart, but I don't think I am asked every time, but have been in the last 875,000 years. It may have to do with the type of update that is applied. This last one included security updates, so maybe that's the difference this time.
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#47177 - 12/08/17 01:19 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I d/l'ed and installed High Sierra 10.13.2, and once again, my keychain password wasn't perpetuated nor was my keychain populated.

A few other posters elsewhere have run into similar or the same issues.

I may never run High Sierra! frown (I guess?)

Feedback sent to Apple.

Oh, and this is new: Migration Assistant made me select passwords for each admin account I wanted to migrate before it would complete migration.


Edited by artie505 (12/08/17 02:20 AM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#47189 - 12/09/17 09:04 AM Keychain Password [Re: artie505]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: artie505
I d/l'ed and installed High Sierra 10.13.2, and once again, my keychain password wasn't perpetuated nor was my keychain populated....


See this 7/24/17  Support Doc Keychain for Mac . This Apple Support doc advises by default, Login password & Keychain for Mac password is (should be) the same.

I guess the Support Doc begs the question "why persist attempting to have Keychain for Mac & Login passwords be different?" when the macOS default is they're the same password. ...And, Keychain works as expected when this macOS default is being used.

BTW, by asking, I'm simply curious to understand (from perspective of having Current User account having Admin privileges) why having different passwords is so important to persist in overriding the macOS default. ...It seems there's a perception of higher security level (if that's the objective) when these passwords are different. If one's Login password could be easily compromised, additionally allowing access to Keychain, it would seem a stronger, Login password would mollify this security concern. ...Am I misunderstanding your objective?
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