 High Sierra Beta
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Its out and I have it installed. The installation has some peculiarities: Remember this is an early beta and glitches are par for the course.- First I had to download and install an "Installer app"
- The installer app installed helper app and then opened App Store to download the High Sierra Installer
- Not unexpectedly the High Installer Kernel Paniced until I unplugged most of the external devices
- APFS is the default file/volume format, but that can be turned off
- As I hoped the conversion from HFS+ to APFS is non-destructive
- the installer time estimates, contrary to my expectations, were close to dead on
- Total installation time including the HFS+ to APFS changeover roughly an hour (I should have kept closer track of time.)
- First broken app: Safari Technology Preview Safari 11 works but it is pinwheeling a LOT (at the moment lots of things are pinwheeling
 ) - I attempted to reconnect the Thunderbolt hub I had disconnected for the install but that created an immediate Kernel Panic Tomorrow, I will start adding things back one at a time to see where the stopper is and investigate converting my other drives to APFS
Update: the pinwheeling is apparently Safari related. Quit Safari and the pinwheeling stops.
Last edited by joemikeb; 06/30/17 01:29 AM. Reason: update
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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This morning the pinwheeling has stopped. Apparently although the system was operational the HFS+ ➠APFS conversion was still going on in background. I am a much happier camper! Because of my own curiosity and because of the interest indicated here, my initial explorations are going to be centered around APFS. At this point the only difference I have noted (other than several hours of pinwheeling) is Disk Utility says the boot drive is formatted APFS. At the moment I am looking for a way to non-destructively convert my other drives. So far I am having no luck. Disk Utility will happily format a drive APFS, APFS (Encrypted), APFS (Case sensitive), or APFS (Case Sensitive, Encrypted) — but unlike High Sierra's installer, all are destructive.  CAUTION I just opened Photos and the first thing it did is update the Photos Library. This does not bode well for any of you who might want to run Sierra (or earlier) and High Sierra. You are going to have backward compatibility issues.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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I have been formatting every drive in sight as APFS (Encrypted) doing HFS+ vs APFS performance testing and trying out different apps. So far the results are: - the same rotating rust drive averaged 18% faster reads and 14% faster writes when formatted APFS (encrypted) than when it was formatted HFS+ (Un-encrypted). The full Quickbench report can be seen here. Interestingly Quickbench identified APFS as "WIndows Sharing (SMB/CIFS)
- Carbon Copy Cloner had no difficulty cloning a data drive from HFS+ to APFS (Encrypted) or from APFS (encrypted) to APFS (encrypted) NOTE: that was a data drive and not a boot drive.
- When cloning a bootable APFS volume to an APFS (Encrypted) volume CCC warns the target volume will not be bootable.
CONCLUSION: APFS may be optimized for SSDs, but it is also offers superior performance on rotating rust. I am having a hard time trying to find something not to like about APFS. INTERESTING GLITCH I attempted to print a page from Apple Help by clicking on the share icon and selecting print. The image appeared correct in the print dialog window but when it printed either to the printer or to a PDF it comes out as what can best be described as garbled Japanese and/or Chinese characters. (My second High Sierra Feedback report 🤓)
Last edited by joemikeb; 07/01/17 12:29 AM.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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TIME MACHINE BACKUP KERFUFFLE - Time Machine will only backup to drives formatted HFS+ and not to an APFS drive
- Time Machine will not allow backups from an encrypted APFS volume to an un-encrypted volume
- Time Machine and DiskUtility both support encrypted HFS+ volumes
- At this juncture Time Machine automatically excludes APFS (Encrypted) volumes from backups and unless there is a secrect key to the kingdom I have no yet discovered they cannot be removed from the list of excluded items.
(Sorry Artie but emojis are the only adequate way of expressing my opinion of this Catch 22.) I keep saying to myself, "Self" — that's what I call myself when I am muttering under my breath — "this is an early beta and you've been down this road before. Lets make that my third High Sierra Feedback report." But I really want to express myself in stranger language than that. Surely this will be caught and fixed.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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When your emotions runneth over you've got to do what you've got to do, but I've got no objection to FTM smilies, and, in fact, I frequently use them myself. What I object to is the command-control-shift guys, which I find extremely difficult to discern to the point that I've almost always got to enlarge them to see what they are, so I can then try to figure out what they mean. In their attempt to be expressive of the entire range of human emotions they've blurred together and become obscure, forcing both writer and reader to work harder than should be necessary to make good use of them. Just my opinion. Not being facetious here... just asking from lack of context, but did you really mean " Time Machine and DiskUtility both support encrypted HFS+ volumes" or did you mean APFS volumes?
Last edited by artie505; 07/01/17 10:06 AM. Reason: Cleanup
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Not being facetious here... just asking from lack of context, but did you really mean "Time Machine and DiskUtility both support encrypted HFS+ volumes" or did you mean APFS volumes? Disk Utility can format a drive as HFS+ (encrypted) and if you select a new target volume for Time Machine that volume will be formatted or reformatted HFS+ or HFS+ (encrypted) As a fan of the Command+control+space emoji, I use them a lot in texting, but I wish they could be made larger here. In most apps changing the font size enlarges the emoji quite well but those are actually gif images and the size tag does not work on gifs. 😠:loudly crying face: (That gives me an idea however, I might be able to use HTML) 💡:lightbulb:
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Not being facetious here... just asking from lack of context, but did you really mean "Time Machine and DiskUtility both support encrypted HFS+ volumes" or did you mean APFS volumes? Disk Utility can format a drive as HFS+ (encrypted) and if you select a new target volume for Time Machine that volume will be formatted or reformatted HFS+ or HFS+ (encrypted) Thanks. I follow it now. You're one heck of a beta tester! In their attempt to be expressive of the entire range of human emotions they've blurred together and become obscure, forcing both writer and reader to work harder than should be necessary to make good use of them. ...the size tag does not work on gifs. 😠:loudly crying face: (That gives me an idea however, I might be able to use HTML) 💡:lightbulb: Did you forget the or make my point?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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OP
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...the size tag does not work on gifs. 😠:loudly crying face: (That gives me an idea however, I might be able to use HTML) 💡:lightbulb: Did you forget the or make my point? I was making your point thus the :lightbulb: comment.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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...the size tag does not work on gifs. 😠:loudly crying face: (That gives me an idea however, I might be able to use HTML) 💡:lightbulb: Did you forget the or make my point? I was making your point thus the :lightbulb: comment.  (Not that the lightbulb wasn't immediately recognizable.)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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FAILURES TO DATESo much is working well that it is a lot easier to note the failures I have encountered. Once again this is an early beta and much of what is not working now will be fixed sooner or later. - Time Machine backups from an APFS (encrypted) drive — I don't know about non encrypted
- Bootable CCC clones TO an APFS volume — encrypted or otherwise— they clone but are not bootable.
- SoftRAID — reliable kernel panic. (Still working on this)
- CleanApp 5.1.2 — hangs reliably
- TechTool Pro 9.5.1 — Hardware tests run normally but confusing reports of volumes on APFS formatted drives. Almost all volume analysis and repair features greyed out and unavailable.
- Drive Genius 5.0.1 — Correctly identifies the boot volume as formatted AppleAPFSMedia, but also shows an overlapping volume diskos3, on the same drive but all the repair and rebuild functions are greyed out. The volumes on the HD data drive are correctly identified but like the boot drive, most of the functionality is greyed out on the APFS volume.
- OnyX refuses to open and exits cleanly no HIgh Sierra version available yet
- Tinkertool and Tinkertool System needed to be updated but are working
Actually not bad for an early beta.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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I don't know about your situation, but my SSD and its 13 second chime to desktop boots has made beta testing that necessitates restarting considerably less unpleasurable an experience than it used to be, although having to enter my password three times after every restart has more than compensated. --> 
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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...although having to enter my password three times after every restart has more than compensated. --> My boot time I’d longer than 13 seconds, but this is an early beat release. My greatest annoyance arose when I elected to encrypt the boot drive. I use a Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad and Bluetooth often doesn’t turn on until the user has been selected and and the password entered – Which means I have to keep a wired keyboard and mouse around for use when I cold boot. . But that problem preceded High Sierra. My question to you is about the three passwords. What three passwords? – I am getting along just fine with only one!
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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...although having to enter my password three times after every restart has more than compensated. --> My question to you is about the three passwords. What three passwords? – I am getting along just fine with only one! After every start and restart I've got to deal with these three guys . I'm pretty sure it began with Sierra, and I've accepted it as a new consequence of my login and keychain passwords differing. Has that been a bad assumption?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Easy fix. Somewhere along the line your account password has been changed but not the password for your keychains. - Launch Keychain Access
- Select one of the keychains
- on the Keychain Menu Bar select Edit > Change password for keychain "XXXXX" ...
- For curent password enter the password you have been using to unlock that keychain
- For the new keychain enter the exact password you are using for your account
- Repeat these steps for each of the three keychains involved
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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ANOTHER APFS TRIAL
I got to thinking about TechTool Pro's ProToGo and EDrive and decided to see if by any chance it could create a bootable image of High Sierra. The answer is no it cannot. As I have said the developers of Diskwarrior, Drive Genius, and TechTool Pro have a long row to hoe getting compatible with High Sierra and APFS. On top of that much of their value and justification in the past has been rendered questionable if not moot by APFS.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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NEW SAFARI SECURITY FEATURESI have referred to this in another thread where I was talking about Safari Technology Preview. As far as I can tell Safari 11.0 in High Sierra is the same as the Safari Technology Preview I was running in Sierra. IMO the most notable new feature is found in Safari > Preferences > Websites where on a site-by-site basis Safari allows the user to control access to - Reader
- Content blockers
- auto play
- Page zoom
- Camera
- Microphone
- Locations
- Notifications
As far as I can determine they all work well but…. (there is almost always a "but" isn't there?)… while having control on a site by site basis is perhaps essential, that means it has to be configured individually for each site which can be time consuming not to mention annoying. It might be better if these were on an opt-out rather than opt-in basis? NOTEThere is now a Safari Technology Preview Release 34 (Safari 11.0, WebKit 13604.1.27.0.1) that is compatible with High Sierra. I have not encountered any obvious differences between it and Safari 11.0 so my guess is any differences are deep under the hood.
Last edited by joemikeb; 07/06/17 01:28 PM.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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MORE ON SAFARI'S WEBSITE FEATURESSafari's new website access features can be accessed through Safari > Preferences > Website or through adding the Website icon to a customized tool bar. The more I play with them the better I like them. This feature is available in… So you don't have to be running the High Sierra beta to be able to try them out.
Last edited by joemikeb; 07/06/17 02:03 PM. Reason: add URL
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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MY PUBLIC BETA TESTING SCRIPTWhen I installed the original OS X public Beta (OS X 0), - I become acutely sensitive to the smallest and most insignificant hesitation, blip, whatever afraid I am about to discover I have boxed myself into an untenable corner I cannot escape from — High Sierra is no exception!
- To my relief that has not happened yet — that too includes High Sierra.
- Inevitably my hyper sensitivity sends me scurrying to investigate fix minuscule issues I have been living with because I was too busy to dig out the solution before then — that too includes High Sierra.
- Digging out solutions inevitably finds me taking a fearless inventory of apps and weeding out those I never use, can't remember what they do, developer has dropped out of sight, etc. — that too includes High Sierra.
- Somewhere along the line I become aware of the tangled rats nest of wires on the back and under my computer desk and spend an afternoon reshuffling and re-organizing the wiring — that to includes High Sierra
- I end up looking at my re-roganized computer desk, marvel at how smoothly the computer is running, wipe the sweat from my brow and congratulate myself on another successful beta installation (or is that dodging another self inflicted bullet in the foot) — that too is true of High Sierra
That does not mean everything is perfect or there is no more work to do. With High Sierra there are a few issues yet to be resolved before I am ready to call it complete. - I have OWC's Thunderbay mini RAID array enclosure configured RAID 5 under SoftRAID 5.6. The enclosure was working perfectly under Sierra but under HIgh Sierra but if the enclosure is attached and powered up about the time the drivers load the system kernel panics — reliably every time. SoftRAID Tech Support is on the problem. The same thing happened with the early Sierra betas.
- Time Machine and APFS (encrypted) formatted drives don't play nice with one another. Apple has been notified and I am confident they will solve this — eventually.
- CCC will clone the boot drive but the clone is not bootable and I don't know about recovering from a CCC clone.
That leaves me with no workable Time Machine media until Apple fixes Time Machine which does not give me any warm fuzzy feelings  My consolation is all of my critical data is mirrored on iCloud. 😟🤞🹠.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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CCC will clone the boot drive but the clone is not bootable.... Specifically, don't you mean that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to another APFS volume isn't bootable? It's already been established that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to a HFS+ volume IS bootable. (Thanks for figuring out how to enlarge emojis. <p style="font-size:36px;"> </p> It doesn't work with smilies, but they're not obscure like emojis, so it doesn't really matter.)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Specifically, don't you mean that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to another APFS volume isn't bootable? It's already been established that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to a HFS+ volume IS bootable. I have not personally verified that, but I will let you know when I do.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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THE RESULTS ON SAFARI ARE INI don't have the facility to test this myself, but OWC's Rocket Yard has tested and reported on the performance of Safari 11 and Safari Technology Preview compared to Chrome, Opera, and Firefox. Take a look at the Rocket Yard article for details but in general the ranking from fastest to slowest was: - safari Technology Preview
- Safari 11
- Opera
- Chrome
- Firefox
With one exception, thruput, Firefox was a distant last and the two Safaris switched the lead back and forth. It is interesting the runners up, Opera and Chrome, are both based on a Webkit branch. It would appear the age of the Firefox engine is showing. 😎
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Specifically, don't you mean that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to another APFS volume isn't bootable? It's already been established that a CCC clone of an APFS volume to a HFS+ volume IS bootable. I have not personally verified that, but I will let you know when I do. I have verifies that using CCC and cloning from an encrypted APFS drive to an HFS+ volume does create a bootable clone, but on initial examination... - Booting from the clone is slow — so slow that the screen blanked before the screen display came on. FWIW the test drive is USB 3.
- The cloned drive is NOT encrypted so that protection is gone
- The cloned drive can freely open files on the encrypted APFS volumes
This will take a lot more investigation, but it appears cloning can easily defeat any protection from APFS (encrypted) drives. 🙅â€â™‚ï¸ UPDATESee the following post. You can clone to an encrypted HFS+ volume which is good, but the venerability to an unencrypted clone is a major security gap. Time Machine won't allow you to choose an unencrypted backup volume for an APFS encrypted — but I haven't gotten that to work — yet.
Last edited by joemikeb; 07/10/17 11:08 PM. Reason: Update
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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PUBLIC BEAT 3 — FOLLOW UP- All but one of my open issues with High Sierra itself appear to have been fixed in Public Beta 3, even the very minor display glitch in Disk Utility! The remaining issue is Time Machine support for APFS formatted backup drives. (Given the APFS feature set, that might evolve into a functionally brand new Time Machine structure.)
 - Interestingly an HTML rendering issue in Safari Technology Preview that was fixed several months ago has resurrected itself, but it is not present in Safari 11
- My only major issue at this point is with SoftRAID. Apple changed a critical API they used so now they have to engineer a way around that API. (Nothing against SoftRAID, it performed beautifully in El Capitan and after an update it worked equally well in Sierra, but I wish Apple would add RAID 5 to their RAID Assistant in Disk Utility.)
- Finally I am curious to see how (and when) DiskWarrior, TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, et. al. are going to deal with APFS. (I suspect that is going to take a while, perhaps a good long while.)
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta on RAID 0 Macbook pro 2012
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Joined: Aug 2017
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hie there..does anyone here already tried or installed High Sierra Beta on RAID 0 Macbook pro ??
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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how to do raid in High Sierra Beta?
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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how to do raid in High Sierra Beta? Assuming you have the correct hardware, ideally two or more matching internal drives or in an external RAID enclosure go to Disk Utility > File > RAID Assistant and select the drives to be used in the array and choose RAID 1, RAID 0, or JBOD. After that the array is accessed the same way as any volume. NOTE: JBOD is technically not a RAID configuration, it is a concatenation of two or more drives into a single volume.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!Last night my Late 2012 Mac mini started acting out: lots of pinwheels, momentary hangs, sluggishness followed by sudden bursts of high speed catching up, etc.. I went through the normal troubleshooting, shut down unnecessary apps, ran diagnostics, checked the log files and found no apparent reason. Oh well there is always the sovereign remedy for inexplicable glitches — Reboot. The progress bar seemed to progress slowly until it got to about the 90% level and went into super slow motion. After about five minutes I gave up and did a full shut down followed by a restart. Once again at about the 90% level the progress bar hung again. This time I decided to wait it out. After ten or fifteen minutes the progress bar finally completed but still the boot did not complete. Nine hours later, it still had not completed. Time for a reinstall, so I created bootable High Sierra reinstall disk (an adventure in and of itself). It booted flawlessly and I launched the High Sierra installer and attempted to reinstall on the internal SSD formatted APFS (encrypted). Every disk was there including another volume formatted APFS (encrypted) and a volume formatted Mac OS Extended (Journaled, Encrypted) but the internal SSD remains among the missing. Disk Utility, TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, About this Mac, Startup Drive, nothing is seeing the internal SSD so there is no way to either repair the volume structure or reinstall High Sierra! It occured to me that the system may not see it because it is formatted APFS (Encrypted) but there is a rotating rust Drive with an APFS (encrypted) partition and the system not only sees it but requests the password to access it and utilities that see drives at the hardware level do not “see†the SSD, so I cannot even attempt any kid of volume repair. A few days ago hardware level tests, including S.M.A.R.T., I/O speed tests, etc. gave the drive a clean bill of health. I have had rotating rust drives fail in the past, but never as suddenly and as profoundly as this. I had hoped to keep this Mac mini going until Apple came up with a newer version, but that decision may have been taken out of my hands. I can get by running on external drives for a while, but I guess I am officially in the market for a new Mac. Anyone out there with experience running a MacBook or MacBook Pro closed lid with an external monitor, keyboard, and trackpad?
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Anyone out there with experience running a MacBook or MacBook Pro closed lid with an external monitor, keyboard, and trackpad? The best I can do is direct you to an app that will prevent your laptop from sleeping while its lid is closed. NoSleep works fine for me, but its got its detractors on MacUpdate. If you intend to use your laptop on the road as well as at home, I recommend v 1.3.0, which is available from two sources here.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Last night my Late 2012 Mac mini started acting out: lots of pinwheels, momentary hangs, sluggishness followed by sudden bursts of high speed catching up, etc.. 99% of the time that is a failing hard drive.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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99% of the time that is a failing hard drive. That was my initial take but since then it has exhibited similar problems booting from an external drive, so I am afraid it is the logic board. The SSD keeps appearing and disappearing. It appears to work until the mini gets thoroughly warmed up and then... I had hoped it was the SSD so I could repurpose the mini to replace a much older and slower mini I use as a server, but if it is the logic board that is a no go option. In the meantime I just ordered a 13†MacBook Pro from Small Dog that I can use close cover with my 27†Thunderbolt monitor and full size wireless keyboard and trackpad. Until it arrives I still have my 12†iPad Pro that I am using now.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Can you say "cold solder joint"?
Freedom is never free....thank a Service member today.
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99% of the time that is a failing hard drive. That was my initial take but since then it has exhibited similar problems booting from an external drive, disk access to a failing drive can cause a stall or a complete hang. Disk I/O is a "blocking call" in the kernel, regardless of whether it's the boot volume or any other attached storage. So during startup off a good drive, a failing drive that the OS tries to access to query or to mount can cause problems. I've also seen an optical drive do the same thing, even when no disc was present. (I've also seen multiple computers that could not start off any internal or external drive until I unplugged the failed optical drive) I'm not saying that's what it is, I'm just saying that's still an option you still need to be considering.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
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Any disk access to a failing drive can cause a stall or a complete hang. Disk I/O is a "blocking call" in the kernel, regardless of whether it's the boot volume or any other attached storage. So during startup off a good drive, a failing drive that the OS tries to access to query or to mount can cause problems. I've also seen an optical drive do the same thing, even when no disc was present. (I've also seen multiple computers that could not start off any internal or external drive until I unplugged the failed optical drive) Thanks for the additional input. I still have hopes of recovering the system at least for use as a file/print/Time Machine server. From your description I realize the failure could be either of the internal drives, the SSD or HD. My first task will be to retrieve the 600 GB of tunes, audiobooks, and photos off of the HD. Thanks to iCloud all of that is recoverable, but it would be a lot faster if I could extract it directly. The same thing is true of the Desktop and Documents folders as well as Keychain, Evernote, Safari, Mail, etc.. I also have a viable Time Machine backup, but because of everything I have been doing on the machine, I will probably reinstall all of the apps etc. from scratch — It has been years since I did that so this is a good excuse to get really clean.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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More Beta updatesI have been setting up the new 13" MacBook Pro. I debated not installing the High Sierra beta, but quickly realize I had become accustomed to many of the features in it and really missed them so as soon as I get a couple of USB C adaptors when the Apple Store opens it is going to become a High Sierra testbed. By-the-way I really like the touch bar and because of it and fingerprint recognition having Wallet on the MBP. My only MBP complaint so far is that I keep trying to move things around on the MBP by touching the screen the way I do on iOS devices. In the meantime, I have managed a trial three way reconciliation between my Mac mini, its SSD, and High Sierra. However, it is still a trial and required a reinstallation of the High Sierra beta -- which was flakey at best with several unexpected reboots during the reinstallation and other funny stuff. Whether it is hardware or software related is open for discussion and at best reliability is questionable.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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GETTING PREPARED FOR HIGH SIERRAAlmost everything that works in Sierra will work in High Sierra but note that is ALMOST everything. There are exceptions: - 32 bit applications will not run period, end of discussion! (The High Sierra installer may remove some of them along with other extensions, plug-ins, etc. to an appropriately named folder on the desktop)
- Gatekeeper may require you to authorize printer drivers and other kernel extensions (kext) from legacy developers. (I ran into that with the driver for my 6 year old Canon PIXMA ip4500)
- NOTE: I understand and applaud Apple's drive to keep MacOS as secure as possible which necessarily includes doing as much as possible to protect against vulnerabiities in third party software, but in the case of drivers an inevitable but unintended side effect can be forcing users to newer hardware externals whose drivers are actively supported.
- It means Apple has to be vigilant about offerings in the App Store to be sure they not only meet standards and are actively supported
- It behooves users to be vigilant about their software as well. (After a nuke and pave install of High Sierra rather than recovering all the apps from my Time Machine backup, I elected to reinstall them from scratch. As a result I have roughly half as many apps and I have yet to miss one of those I eliminated.
- I said almost all, but there are still apps that are being broken, or fixed, with every High Sierra beta update.
- Many (most?) active developers are working with Apple to make fixes as quickly as possible but...
- the App Store approval process is stringent and takes time so even though the developer has a "fix" it may take time to get it on the App Store.
- Some "fixes" will work, but due to the stringent App Store standards such as (particularly?) sandboxing will not be approved for App Store release.
- Because of sandboxing some App Store releases will have fewer features than the non-App Store version of the same product.
- In summary when preparing for High Sierra like all MacOS upgrades…
- Be sure all of your third party software is up to date
- CONSIDER: For the last few years I had fallen into the pattern of simply running the updates and upgrades and I had not performed a clean (a.k.a. nuke and pave) upgrade in years. This time circumstances (ie. getting rid of an unwanted/undeletable user account) forced me into it and to be honest I am glad I was forced into it.
- My new upgrade resolution is:
- Do a Nuke and Pave at least every other upgrade with a re-install of all the apps and drivers.
- Don't worry about combo updaters, instead simply boot from the Recovery Drive and perform an OS reinstall from there.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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32 bit applications will not run period, end of discussion! (The High Sierra installer may remove some of them along with other extensions, plug-ins, etc. to an appropriately named folder on the desktop) Can you document that? The latest I've been able to find from Apple is App Store
64-bit Requirement for Mac Apps
June 28, 2017
At WWDC 2017, we announced new apps submitted to the Mac App Store must support 64-bit starting January 2018, and Mac app updates and existing apps must support 64-bit starting June 2018. If you distribute your apps outside the Mac App Store, we highly recommend distributing 64-bit binaries to make sure your users can continue to run your apps on future versions of macOS. macOS High Sierra will be the last macOS release to support 32-bit apps without compromise. (Emphasis added)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I can only document my experience and I had one app removed with the pubic beta 1 — but it must be remembered that was a beta and things can and do change between the beta and the release.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I'm going to have to start riding a few developers!
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I'm going to have to start riding a few developers! You are assuming those apps are still supported which may be a big assumption.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I'm going to have to start riding a few developers! You are assuming those apps are still supported which may be a big assumption. I'm making no such assumption. By "riding", I meant "begging" in those instaces in which it's necessary.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I'm going to have to start riding a few developers! You are assuming those apps are still supported which may be a big assumption. I'm making no such assumption. By "riding", I meant "begging" in those instances in which it's necessary. Well, it certainly pays to try! Until I advised him that it was 32 bit only, the first developer I contacted thought his app was either 32 or 64 bit. (He didn't realize that it included one framework that forced it to run at 32 bit only.) He's already updated his app. Oh, and a second developer intends to update his app, so two out of three of my critical apps are now safe. 
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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No more betas: Apple's macOS High Sierra coming Sept. 25, watchOS 4 & tvOS 11 due Sept. 19 As is my custom, I will wait until there are one or two updates before installing it. I'm most concerned about High Sierra's compatibility with MS Office 2008. It works in Sierra but is a bit wonky. Despite my dislike for MS, I may bite the bullet and subscribe to Office 2016 (or whatever version is the latest). I have used substitutes for MS Word but I still prefer Word. And, my wife is used to using MS Entourage (now defunct, but Outlook replaces it). I'm perfectly capable of learning a new email client but she balks.
Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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Although I'll probably install High Sierra immediately, I intend to run it in HFS+ mode for a while to give the bad guys an opportunity to look for vulnerabilities in APFS.
Office 2016 is the latest version, and it's available as a one-time buy, but I don't know if the next version will be available other than by subscription, so I intend to buy it to replace my 32 bit 2011.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I am currently up to the High Sierra Developer Gold Master running on APFS (encrypted) and at this point the only issue that has not been solved is SoftRAID compatibility.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I've deleted the original contents of this post, because they dealt with numerous glitches that arose when I installed High Sierra...HFS+.
I'm going to reinstall APFS...and PRAY!
Aaargh!!!
Last edited by artie505; 09/28/17 10:12 AM.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I've deleted the original contents of this post, because they dealt with numerous glitches that arose when I installed High Sierra...HFS+.
I'm going to reinstall APFS...and PRAY!
🤞
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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(Dunno why your 250% tags don't work in "Quote" format.) OK... No luck! Here's a step by step of what I did... - I first tried a clean install.
- Cloned boot volume to external. (Both drives are SSDs.)
- Erased boot volume.
- D/l'ed High Sierra to empty partition on external...HFS+ as expected.
- Shut down after Installer had launched but before going any further.
- Restarted in boot volume clone.
- Cloned product of steps 4 & 5 to previously erased boot volume...HFS+ as expected.
- Completed installation.
- Aaargh!!!
- Erased HS installation.
- Cloned step 1 clone back to its original home.
- Upgraded with HS installer...APFS as expected.
- Aaargh!!!
- Re-d/l'ed HS from App Store.
- Clean install.
- Aaargh!!!
(I was flustered, and I trashed my notes along with High Sierra; I hope I'm not omitting anything important.) My MAJOR problem with HS was with Keychain Access... - My "Changed" login password wasn't perpetuated.
- I reinstated it, and it worked, but it didn't survive either shut down or simple restart.
- My "Local Items" weren't perpetuated.
- Re-added "Local Items" sometimes survived shut down or simple restart...sometimes didn't.
- Aaargh!!!
- Filed bug report with Apple.
As you might expect, I'm back in Sierra. Aftermath: After I erased the step 12 HS installation I wanted to reformat the volume as HFS+ but couldn't do so from a local volume, so I booted into Recovery Drive but got an endless SBOD when I tried to get to Disk Utility, and I wound up erasing and reinstalling my entire internal drive.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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It looks like your original problem was similar to the one in this Apple Discussions thread. Thanks for posting your issues, Artie. I'm glad that I haven't taken the plunge yet. Is this your post? It has a different user name.
Last edited by jchuzi; 09/29/17 08:27 PM.
Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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I'm sorry, but I'm not clearly following your sequence. Here's a link to HS Clean Install by iMore Is that what you did? BTW, I'm not having any issues with HS. And as I have an SSD, my local volume is now using APFS.
MacStudio M1max - 14.4.1, 64 GB Ram, 4TB SSD; Studio Display; iPhone 13mini; Watch 9; iPadPro (M2) 11" WiFi
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It looks like your original problem was similar to the one in this Apple Discussions thread. Thanks for posting your issues, Artie. I'm glad that I haven't taken the plunge yet. Is this your post? It has a different user name. I used to be of the same mind as you, Jon, but since beta testers like joemike now do the heavy lifting, I don't mind giving them a belated hand, particularly since SSDs, USB 3, and Fios have made undoing any repercussions miraculously easier than it used to be. I've done a lot of beta-testing over the years, and I'd beta-test macOS too, but I'm not enough of a user to do a quality job, and I don't think Apple is ceding betas to find out about TextEdit and Mail. (Nope, that's not me Jon; I'm exclusively an FTM guy. )
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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That's not a very well thought out article...incomplete at the least, but I follow its drift, and that's not what I did, because the procedure it describes results in an APFS High Sierra on an internal SSD while I wanted mine HFS+. So, in order to get a HFS+ High Sierra on my internal SSD I first ran the installer on an external volume, where it installed as HFS+ by default, and then cloned that volume to an internal HFS+ volume.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Sorry guys you are already behind the release cycle. I installed MacOS 10.13.1 beta this morning. Unfortunately the release notes are apparently no yet available so I have no idea what is new or improved, just that it installed without a hitch and is running smoothly.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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May I assume that you did not have Artie's issue of disappearing passwords and keychain?
Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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According to Apple's Note (1st paragraph's reference is convoluted, but makes the point) Prepare for APFS in High Sierra, APFS is said to be the default format for internal SSD drives and one can not opt out of the conversion. ...So, it would seem this may be what's defeating your effort to clone your external, HFS+ HS back to your internal SSD.
MacStudio M1max - 14.4.1, 64 GB Ram, 4TB SSD; Studio Display; iPhone 13mini; Watch 9; iPadPro (M2) 11" WiFi
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May I assume that you did not have Artie's issue of disappearing passwords and keychain? Not a bit of it in any of the numerous almost bi-weekly beta updates or in upgrading my wife's computer or our server. FULL DISCLOSURE: My results may be colored by the fact my Keychain and Safari settings, autofill data, even my Desktop and Documents folders are on iCloud and shared by my MacBook Pro, iPhone, and iPad. It is possible those could be lost of overwritten in an upgrade or update, but I would never notice it because they would immediately be available and restored from iCloud as soon as I entered my Apple ID and password. (You wouldn't believe how easy that makes it to recover after a "nuke and pave" upgrade/update, disaster, or setting up a new device. The only thing missing are third party and app-store apps.)
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I have three clones and a Time Machine backup. If necessary, could I recover from them instead of an iCloud backup (which I don't have)?
Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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If by could I recover from them you mean could you run Migration Assistant against them the answer is yes. I would recommend installing fresh copies of the apps however, because of potential compatibility issues. For example an incompatible version of SoftRAID rendered my system un-bootable by causing immediate Kernel Panics every time I attempted to boot the system.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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According to Apple's Note (1st paragraph's reference is convoluted, but makes the point) Prepare for APFS in High Sierra, APFS is said to be the default format for internal SSD drives and one can not opt out of the conversion. ...So, it would seem this may be what's defeating your effort to clone your external, HFS+ HS back to your internal SSD. APFS is the default, can't opt out of, format for High Sierra installed directly onto internal SSDs, but HS on an internal SSD is not required to be APFS at the moment, although that may (will probably?) change down the road. I had no problems installing HS on my internal SSD as HFS+, my only critical problem was with its Keychain Access component.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Update: I just installed the macOS 10.13 Supplemental update and re-migrated my user account, but with no improvement in the Keychain Access situation. I forgot to mention at the outset that my login items weren't perpetuated when I upgraded, nor did System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items respond to the appropriate check-boxes, and the update didn't fix that either.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Artie I have come to believe you either do not hold your mouth right or there is a little black cloud over your head tat follows you from computer device to computer device?   I have upgraded and updated two non-beta computers around here to High Sierra and I have several friends and relatives who have done the same and there have been no problems with Keychain, Keychain Access, or Login Items — with one exception. A friend had one login item that did not transfer. It turned out the associated app was not compatible with High Sierra. One possible difference, as far as I know all of these different computes were linked to Keychain on iCloud, certainly all the ones here are. Whether that has anything to do with anything or not 🤷â€â™‚ï¸
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Just call me Joe. (Or refer to my avatar.  ) I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does? They are all the same.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I wonder... Are the keychain passwords on all those other Macs the same as their login passwords, or do they differ as mine does? They are all the same. Well, that called for an experiment, so I - made my keychain password the same as my login password in my Sierra boot account,
- booted into High Sierra,
- used migration assistant to import the changed Sierra boot account,
- logged in to the newly imported account,
- and VOILA! There, just like magic, was my complete keychain.
Bug identified and reported...ball's in Apple's court.. More: Oops! Although I logged out and back in with no issues, I forgot to restart to see if things remained copacetic, and I also forgot to make my keychain and login passwords different and see if things remained copacetic after a restart...and I've erased the volume. Oh, well, another project. Sidenote: The first time I logged in to the newly imported account, all my login items launched as expected, but when I logged out and back in they didn't launch and were gone from System Prefs > Users & Groups > Login Items. Bug reported to Apple
Last edited by artie505; 10/15/17 02:03 PM.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra and migrated my data from my boot Sierra volume after changing my keychain password to match my login password, and all was good...for about 5 minutes: my keychain was populated, and my login items launched as expected. I then changed my keychain password so it differed from my login password, shut down, started up, and although my login items launched, my keychain was depopulated. Keychain Access in High Sierra is pretty clearly choking on the differing login and keychain passwords, but I've got no idea what's up or, as the case may be, not up with login items.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Just did a clean install of 10.13.1, and it appears to have been worked on, but although my different keychain password was perpetuated this time around, my keychain was again unpopulated. Also, my auto-login pref somehow got changed, and I had to enter a password to log in. Feedback sent to Apple.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Artie I wonder if you are running into one of the new security provisions built into MacOS 10.13 and iOS 11? Perhaps one we are not cognizant of or one we do not yet fully comprehend all of its implications? Just to be sure I am following correctly - When you say, "my keychain", are you referring to the Login, iCloud, or System keychain?
- Do you have iCloud Keychain activated?
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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By "my keychain", I mean my login keychain. (My System keychain remains locked after I've unlocked my login keychain.) I haven't got iCloud activated. I'm leaving my hat hung on "bug", because it appears that Apple has actually been working on the problem. Also, the ability to have different login and login keychain passwords is a pretty powerful and useful security feature, and I can't imagine Apple breaking it as part of a new security scheme. Well, on the other hand....
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Also, my auto-login pref somehow got changed, and I had to enter a password to log in.
Although I haven't yet upgraded to High Sierra, I have noticed that software updates that require a restart in Sierra make me enter my password after the update is completed. Subsequent restarts do not (my preferences are also set for automatic login). Did you restart after this? What happened?
Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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I threw in the towel instantly...couldn't see any reason to try a restart, but this was my third or fourth High Sierra clean install, and it's the first time I was asked to enter my password when starting up.
It's actually the first time I've EVER been asked to enter my password when starting up since I set the pref about a million years ago.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I threw in the towel instantly...couldn't see any reason to try a restart, but this was my third or fourth High Sierra clean install, and it's the first time I was asked to enter my password when starting up.
It's actually the first time I've EVER been asked to enter my password when starting up since I set the pref about a million years ago. Yeah, about 875,000 years ago things changed. I was asked for my password too, upon restart, but I don't think I am asked every time, but have been in the last 875,000 years. It may have to do with the type of update that is applied. This last one included security updates, so maybe that's the difference this time.
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
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I d/l'ed and installed High Sierra 10.13.2, and once again, my keychain password wasn't perpetuated nor was my keychain populated. A few other posters elsewhere have run into similar or the same issues. I may never run High Sierra! (I guess?) Feedback sent to Apple. Oh, and this is new: Migration Assistant made me select passwords for each admin account I wanted to migrate before it would complete migration.
Last edited by artie505; 12/08/17 10:20 AM.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Keychain Password
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I d/l'ed and installed High Sierra 10.13.2, and once again, my keychain password wasn't perpetuated nor was my keychain populated.... See this 7/24/17  Support Doc Keychain for Mac . This Apple Support doc advises by default, Login password & Keychain for Mac password is (should be) the same. I guess the Support Doc begs the question "why persist attempting to have Keychain for Mac & Login passwords be different?" when the macOS default is they're the same password. ...And, Keychain works as expected when this macOS default is being used. BTW, by asking, I'm simply curious to understand (from perspective of having Current User account having Admin privileges) why having different passwords is so important to persist in overriding the macOS default. ...It seems there's a perception of higher security level (if that's the objective) when these passwords are different. If one's Login password could be easily compromised, additionally allowing access to Keychain, it would seem a stronger, Login password would mollify this security concern. ...Am I misunderstanding your objective?
MacStudio M1max - 14.4.1, 64 GB Ram, 4TB SSD; Studio Display; iPhone 13mini; Watch 9; iPadPro (M2) 11" WiFi
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If one's Login password could be easily compromised, additionally allowing access to Keychain, it would seem a stronger, Login password would mollify this security concern. ...Am I misunderstanding your objective? My objective is ease of use. In any particular session, I'm extremely unlikely to have to enter my keychain password more than once, while it's a virtual 100% certainty that I'll have to enter my login/Admin password multiple times, so a complex password would be counter-productive...not to mention a giant PIA.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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If ease of use has simply been your objective, I’ll put forward these thoughts (based upon my use of same password for Login & Keychain) after reading a number of your posts, around FTM about Keychain...
- I’m using a 15-digit alpha-numeric Login/Keychain password and when required to enter, which is seldom after Login, it’s not a PIA. ...I also employ 1PW, when initially needed requires my Master PW (12-digit alpha-numeric) to make active (conveniently set to auto-lock after 90 minutes of no activity) and then, using Cmd / keystrokes to initiate passwords for web logins. ...I’m not being required to continually re-enter my Login/Keychain password throughout my computer sessions.
- In a number of your posts, about Keychain, you’ve referred to being unable to use 2 separate passwords as a HS bug. (My definition of a default-setting bug is when an employed, Default setting does not work as it should.) Since the Support Doc link, previously provided, clearly indicates the Default is to be the same password, IMHO, It seems incorrect to call the inability to employ 2 passwords as a 10.13.x bug. ...Your objective wants to employ a non-default setting which is currently unavailable in High Sierra. As Sierra fulfills your objective, then using 10.12.x works for you; but it’s not accurate to say 10.13.x has a bug when the Support Doc confirms the Default is for these passwords to be the same and when employed, Keychain will subsequently work as expected.
I acknowledge HS has had some early issues, which Apple has timely corrected and no doubt will continue to improve. ...But as I’ve used HS from day one and have not experienced any truly problematic issues, remaining unfixed, with the HS macOS or 3d-party apps compatible with HS, I put forward there’s some misconceptions being bantered about FTM that are mistakenly being accepted, by some, as accurate.
MacStudio M1max - 14.4.1, 64 GB Ram, 4TB SSD; Studio Display; iPhone 13mini; Watch 9; iPadPro (M2) 11" WiFi
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I'll take issue with your interpretations of both "default" and "bug". "Default" means " there's more than one option, one of them has to be default, and this is the one we've chosen", and while it may suggest a preference on Apple's part, it may also be no more than a necessary starting point, but the fact that there's an Apple provided alternative most assuredly precludes it from being mandated. (I don't know why you think different login and keychain passwords aren't supported in High Sierra when the one option's having been designated as default clearly indicates that there's another, not to mention that I reported precisely the opposite in post #46638.) macOS is littered with defaults: - your desktop pic,
- your firewall is turned on (I think),
- FileVault is turned off (Just imagine!),
- weird, upside down scrolling,
- fonts, font sizes and colors,
- window views and sizes...
ad infinitum, and your login and keychain passwords matching is just another instance in which Apple has chosen between options. And a "bug" is a failure of ANY - not just default - Apple provided functionality, e.g. my alternative keychain password, to work as expected. Even had Apple eliminated the option from High Sierra, [presumably] my keychain would have been migrated as expected, and the first time I booted into it I'd have gotten a pop-up advising me that my keychain password was now the same as my login password because differing passwords were no longer supported...most certainly not an unexplained, empty keychain. There is, very clearly, a bug in High Sierra that's causing Keychain Access to choke on differing passwords (and, as I reported in post #46760, Apple seems to be working on it). Next, while your keychain/1Password solution suits your needs and perhaps those of many others, it doesn't suit mine...as my differing passwords solution does. And finally, you're extrapolating your seamless upgrade to High Sierra to extend to all Mac users, and that, including password issues, is simply NOT the case. ...I put forward there’s some misconceptions being bantered about FTM that are mistakenly being accepted, by some, as accurate. And I put forward that you need some empirical evidence - something along the lines of, say, my four clean installs of three different versions of High Sierra - to support your position.
Last edited by artie505; 12/12/17 01:58 AM. Reason: Knew it soon's I saw it!
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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PbGuy and Artie may I remind both of you that name calling or ascribing personal attributes or motives to others is never acceptable on FineTunedMac or our predecessor MacFixit and could result in temporary or permanent banishment from posting.
If you have an opinion about a process, procedure, etc you are welcome to express it but claim it as your personal opinion or choice, and do not assign it to others. You can express disagreement, but never ever characterize or assign negative value to the others, or their opinions.. In fact it is best to never personalize the conversation.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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For my fellow update fanatics information, MadOS MacOS 10.13.3 is — as expected — in beta. No hard information on what it contains, but no new features are expected in this release. I will let you know if I encounter any surprises.
Last edited by joemikeb; 12/13/17 06:32 PM. Reason: MacOS not MadOS
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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For my fellow update fanatics information, MadOS MacOS 10.13.3 is — as expected — in beta. No hard information on what it contains, but no new features are expected in this release. I will let you know if I encounter any surprises. Can't wait! (Really) It occurred to me that throughout my High Sierra/Keychain Access ordeal I never thought to, nor did anybody ever suggest that I, install via simple upgrade, rather than clean install & migration of data, so I just did an upgrade (on an external volume), and my results were consistent with my previously reported results: my "upgraded" login keychain was depopulated, and my keychain password no longer differed from my login password. :shrug: As I said...Really! More: I don't think I've ever mentioned that I've run into the same bug with both HFS+ and APFS formatting.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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It occurred to me that throughout my High Sierra/Keychain Access ordeal I never thought to, nor did anybody ever suggest that I, install via simple upgrade, rather than clean install & migration of data, so I just did an upgrade (on an external volume), and my results were consistent with my previously reported results: my "upgraded" login keychain was depopulated, and my keychain password no longer differed from my login password. :shrug: As I said...Really! More: I don't think I've ever mentioned that I've run into the same bug with both HFS+ and APFS formatting. I am not surprised there is no difference in results between HFS+ and APFS as the APFS virtualization layer is specifically intended to make what is going on in the data storage layer absolutely invisible to anything in the applications layer and all indications are it works very well. As to clean vs. upgrade install the MacOS installer has become very adept at minimizing the effective differences between the two. The only thing the upgrade installer cannot do is identify and eliminate detritus left over from long ago discarded applications, extensions, etc. and that is because it has no way of knowing all of that information or what you might want to keep or discard. The rationale behind Apple's decision to enforce user and login keychain passwords to match someone familiar. with Apple's security changes will have to explain. Probably not Tim Cook, but someone who reports to him. (I wonder how many users that change has impacted? I suspect very few.) I would posit the decision has as much to do with the advent of the iCloud Keychain as anything else. (See this FAQ for more information abut the iCloud Keychain and its options for storing data on your Mac and/or on iCloud — yeah, yeah I know how much you love iCloud but it is getting harder to ignore. ) I have wondered whether your issue is actually the password difference or just perhaps an obscure glitch in your login keychain file structure itself. If you are still curious and have time for some experimentation you might try: - To potentially eliminate the password as the issue:
- change your login keychin password to match your account password.
- Run the update/upgrade and see if the login password has been depopulated
- If it has NOT been depopulated then the issue is more likely a formatting or other glitch in the login keychain file.
- To Fix a damaged keychain file:
- Since Apple removed Keychain First Aid there is no simple way to repair a damaged keychain file
- The only option is to EXPORT the data from your old login keychain before the update/upgrade
- perform the update/upgrade
- IMPORT the data from your old login keychain into the newly created but depopulated login keychain
- Somewhere in that process change the new login keychain password to whatever you want.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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The rationale behind Apple's decision to enforce user and login keychain passwords to match someone familiar. with Apple's security changes will have to explain. No such decision has been made. The option to change your login keychain's password still exists in High Sierra (see below and your own Edit menu), and had it been eliminated, I'd expect to have found a popup advising me that my passwords had been "equalized" the first time I booted into High Sierra...NOT a mystery. I have wondered whether your issue is actually the password difference or just perhaps an obscure glitch in your login keychain file structure itself. If you are still curious and have time for some experimentation you might try: - To potentially eliminate the password as the issue:
- change your login keychin password to match your account password.
- Run the update/upgrade and see if the login password has been depopulated
- If it has NOT been depopulated then the issue is more likely a formatting or other glitch in the login keychain file.
I've done that...spectacularly unsuccessfully. Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra and migrated my data from my boot Sierra volume after changing my keychain password to match my login password, and all was good...for about 5 minutes: my keychain was populated.
I then changed my keychain password so it differed from my login password, shut down, started up, and found that my changed password had reverted and my keychain was depopulated.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Artie, you have probably done this already, but have you looked in ~/Library/Containers/Keychains to see if another login keychain was created when you changed the password or were the contents deleted?
Is there a difference in the size of the populated and depopulated keychains?
Does the creation date on the login keychain change when the file is depopulated?
Obviously none of this solves your issue, but may help explain what is going on if not why.
Have you tried exporting the login keychain contents and then importing them back into the depopulated keychain as a workaround?
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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...have you looked in ~/Library/Containers/Keychains to see if another login keychain was created when you changed the password or were the contents deleted?
Not specifically, but I clicked on every item in Keychain Access's sidebar (where a newly created keychain would have appeared), and my missing login items weren't in any of them.
Is there a difference in the size of the populated and depopulated keychains?
Never thought to look.
Does the creation date on the login keychain change when the file is depopulated?
Never thought to look.
Have you tried exporting the login keychain contents and then importing them back into the depopulated keychain as a workaround?
Nope.
Obviously none of this solves your issue, but may help explain what is going on if not why. I really appreciate your interest and input, but I'm throwing in the towel on this one (until 10.13.3) unless Apple asks me for more input than I've already given them. If I wanted to work around the bug I could simply equalize my passwords before I migrate my data, leave them equalized afterwards, and be done with it, but I don't like the idea of working around this bug...any critical OS bug for that matter, because the probably unrealistic, totally paranoid specter of something going wrong with the workaround would always be lurking in the back of my head. Nah, I'll wait for Apple to fix it. (I'm not crazy hot to upgrade to High Sierra anyhow, particularly since I intend to run it HFS+ at first and won't even reap its major benefit, and I don't feel that Meltdown presents enough of a threat to me to allow it to influence my decision.)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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FWIW, on my 10.13.2 install I checked ALL the prefPanes to ensure that it was only the App Store prefPane with this issue.....and on my other Macs with earlier OS's the App Store prefPane has no padlock to deal with.
Gaining access to the App Store with no unlock required through the prefPane seems a non-issue in my view as the App Store is directly accessible through the Finder.....if someone has physical access to my machine.
Freedom is never free....thank a Service member today.
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Gaining access to the App Store with no unlock required through the prefPane seems a non-issue in my view as the App Store is directly accessible through the Finder.....if someone has physical access to my machine. And any critical functionality requires a password, which reinforces your view.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra 10.13.3, and once again my different login and Keychain Access passwords weren't perpetuated nor was my login keychain populated with the entries in my 10.12.6 login keychain. Looks like I'll never get to run High Sierra. :shrug: (at this point) Bug report filed. More: I just found High Sierra lost my Mail passwords? which, beginning at #11, hits my problem on the head. And I just had a flash of insight: Migration Assistant now asks me to choose a password for each admin account BEFORE it migrates my data, and I use the same login password that I've used since time immemorial, NOT my different Keychain Access password, so I'll guess that my data isn't being migrated because MA can't access it, and I'll also guess that if I use the KA password my data will be migrated, and I will hopefully be able to restore my original login password, i.e. my different passwords situation, afterwards. If so, this is a bad oversight on Apple's part. More later.
Last edited by artie505; 01/24/18 09:10 AM. Reason: More
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Same as last time. Changing my password got me a populated login keychain after migration, but subsequently changing my Keychain Access password to differ from my login password left me with an unpopulated keychain after a restart. Bah! I'll report it to Apple.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Jon
macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
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Here we go again. I installed the MacOS 10.13.3 release this morning and this afternoon I am installing MacOS 10.13.4 Pubic Beta 1. No word yet on what, if anything, new is included in this version. On a whim I checked and iOS 11.3 beta is also available.
Last edited by joemikeb; 01/26/18 10:17 PM.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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New features on initial boot of MacOS 10.13.4 Public beta 1: - A new privacy icon that will appear any time Apple wants to access any of your personal data. There will be an option to permit or disallow the access.
- A banner indicting an app (BOINC) needs to be updated or it could hurt overall system performance. No mention of 32 bit apps and no indication Boinc manager is 32 bit, perhaps one of the project apps? (I will contact UC Berkley about this — I am loathe to lose the millions of hours credit I have gotten over the years).
- I opened DIctionary and the only one found is Wikipedia the US English, UK English, dictionaries and thesaurus are missing along with Spanish, Greek and several others.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I opened Dictionary and the only one found is Wikipedia the US English, UK English, dictionaries and thesaurus are missing along with Spanish, Greek and several others. That sucks even more than the 'down-grading' which I found in El Capitan (10.11.6). Previously (at least under Lion) Dictionary included The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language which provided syllabification of words. In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification. The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation. When something isn't broken, why 'fix' it?!
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When something isn't broken, why 'fix' it?! Because the credo that drives the Internet is "When you've fixed it and made it work right...break it to make it work better." Or because the royalties were breaking the bank?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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From other bread crumbs in 10.13.4 public beta 1, I have to assume the lack of dictionaries is an oversight that will be corrected in future betas. There are too many places where the dictionaries are used in too many Apple and other applications and the holes where the dictionaries should plug in are still there. Interestingly enough the spell checker still seems to be working. Is that separate from the Dictionaryâ“ Of course there is always that one fateful word "assume". 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ By-the-way, if you wonder where the Dictionary comes from I found this in Dictionary > Preferences… That would appear to rule out any consideration of Royalties — at least for the basic dictionary content.
Last edited by joemikeb; 01/27/18 06:41 PM. Reason: add source info
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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By-the-way, if you wonder where the Dictionary comes from I found this in Dictionary > Preferences… That would appear to rule out any consideration of Royalties — at least for the basic dictionary content. When I select Dictionary > Prefs > Wikipedia in Sierra I see the text you posted, but with additional language... It applies to Wikipedia only. All other dictionaries have appended text similar to this... New Oxford American Dictionary
Copyright © 2010, 2016 by Oxford University Press, Inc. All rights reserved. Royalties most certainly are an issue and have, perhaps ( ), influenced content.
Last edited by artie505; 01/28/18 11:19 AM. Reason: Cleanup
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification.
The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation. In which app do you see those "Tools", and where?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I don't know why I didn't ask sooner, but can anyone suggest a reason for Migration Assistant's no longer perpetuating passwords when it migrates accounts...making me select "new" ones before it will migrate mine to High Sierra? (It doesn't balk when I re-use my existing passwords.)
I'm ASSuming that this is new behavior that everyone is seeing.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification.
The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation. In which app do you see those "Tools", and where? Sorry. My bad. I should have been more explicit. I meant in MS Word. Previously I could just go to Dictionary and have all sorts of info, including syllabification and etymology, which were much better provided than the Dictionary bits in El Capitan. I'd love to get them back.
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Previously I could just go to Dictionary and have all sorts of info, including syllabification and etymology, which were much better provided than the Dictionary bits in El Capitan. I'd love to get them back. What I really miss is the OED, which, giant PIA that it was, I still ran for as long as I could boot into Classic Environment.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Man, that brings back memories. I just found the following via Mr Google, but knowing nothing about the purveyor I'm a tad wary of accessing it: Oxford English Dictionary (free version) download for Mac OS X https://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Mac-OS/Oxford-English-Dictionary.htmlFeb 1, 2016 - Free download Oxford English Dictionary forMacOSX. Oxford English Dictionary - The foremost single-volume authority on the English language - revised and updated in 2010 to include the very latest vocabulary.
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I followed the links and ended up at the App Store and a price of $9.99. I am still trying to figure out the "free" part.
I think I will wait and see if the Dictionaries return in MacOS 10.13.4 Public Bata 2.
By the way I am hitting more and more compatibility and slowdownwarnings (Apples polite way of saying 32 bit). Mostly third party non-App Store support utilities such as Fujitsu's ScanSnap, H&R Block 2017 tax program, Dymo label printing software, a couple of games no longer on the App Store, and other admittedly obscure device support apps. I have contacted the developers and they are all scrambling. A couple have sent new releases with notes asking me to let them know if I still get the warning.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I beat joemike to the App Store, but dinner intervened, so he beat me to the post. Free, indeed! That's not the OED! This is the OED. There's also an online version for a very nominal $295/year or $29.95/month. The OED was released on CD-ROM for Mac and PC (for $800) in 1992, but the 2000 update was for PCs only, and further, since the original version was for OS 9, it ran in OS X in Classic Environment only, and only through Tiger. (Running it in Classic was a MAJOR PIA!) The guy from whom I acquired my 3rd generation copy told me that Oxford had advised him that duplication of their neither up to date nor still distributed software was cool, but I knew people who wanted it, and I didn't care to distribute bootleg $800 software, so I contacted Oxford myself, and they were like "Sure. No problem." It's too bad I didn't know you back then, because you'd have loved the thing; it was like a gigantic educational toy! You could even go into the prefs and choose different colors for different aspects of the text. I'm sorry to say that being an inveterate cleaner-upper I destroyed my copy after a few OS X versions of its obsolescence, because I never expected to find anyone who was that far behind the times. Damn! I really should have saved it, if only as a cherished relic.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Thanks to you and joemikeb for saving me the work and the ultimate disappointment after same, re the OED.
Once upon a time — likely in that OS 9 time frame — the OED offered, as I recall, a 3-month free access to the OED and, again as I recall, there was a hack which allowed permanent free access. Of course, now all gone, bye bye.
{sigh}
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The OED online still offers a free 30 day trial, but to institutions only.
I've contacted my daughter, who maaay still have a copy of the CD, and if she's got one, and you've still got your discs and can restore OS 9 to your iMac, I"ll be happy to send you a copy.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I've contacted my daughter, who maaay still have a copy of the CD, and if she's got one, and you've still got your OS 9 discs and can restore the OS to your iMac, I'll be happy to send you a copy. Many thanks ... but after 6 years of inactivity I finally consigned my iMac DV SE to the recycler and trashcanned the OS 9 discs last July.
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Hold Shift and open Dictionary app
Worked for me.
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Hold Shift and open Dictionary app
Worked for me. Since installing MacOS 10.13.4 Public Beta 1 all my dictionaries except Wikipedia had disappeared and your suggestion restored them all to full functionality. That one goes into my list of trouble-shooting tricks. ðŸ‘Apparently the cost of publication rights for the Oxford dictionaries is not an issue for Apple because the dictionaries that showed up on my Mac are: - New Oxford American Dictionary
- Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus
- Apple Dictionary
- Wikipedia
- Oxford Thesaurus of English
- Oxford Dictionary of English
- พจนานุà¸à¸£à¸¡à¹„ทย ฉบับทันสมัยà¹à¸¥à¸°à¸ªà¸¡à¸šà¸¹à¸£à¸“์ (that's Thai)
- Gran Diccionario Oxford - Español-Inglés • Inglés-Español
- Dicionário de Português licenciado para Oxford University Press
- Толковый Ñловарь руÑÑкого Ñзыка
- Arkadaş Türkçe Sözlük
Last edited by joemikeb; 02/04/18 04:36 PM. Reason: add dictionary list
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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I can't even figure out how to follow jonsi's suggestion, but I don't know if I need to. (If I select Dictionary.app in Finder and then depress "shift" and hit command-O I wind up at ~/Documents. ) Please list the sources you've now got in Dictionary.app. Thanks.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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At least in El Capitan, just open Dictionary, then go to Preferences in menu toolbar. That gives you all the options, including various incorporated dictionaries which come with the OS.
(God only knows what the Apple Dictionary is. Every attempt to elicit a definition results in "No entries found".)
And I still want The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
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Since jonsi's trick was directed at you, I was hoping that it might restore The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, so I was asking joemike which ones he's now got. (It didn't. ) (Type "OS X" in the Apple Dictionary.)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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At least in El Capitan, just open Dictionary, then go to Preferences in menu toolbar. That gives you all the options, including various incorporated dictionaries which come with the OS. In my case the list of options contained only Wikipedia — until I tried the Shift+Click.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Apparently the cost of publication rights for the Oxford dictionaries is not an issue for Apple because the dictionaries that showed up on my Mac are: - New Oxford American Dictionary
- Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus
- Apple Dictionary
- Wikipedia
- Oxford Thesaurus of English
- Oxford Dictionary of English
- พจนานุà¸à¸£à¸¡à¹„ทย ฉบับทันสมัยà¹à¸¥à¸°à¸ªà¸¡à¸šà¸¹à¸£à¸“์ (that's Thai)
- Gran Diccionario Oxford - Español-Inglés • Inglés-Español
- Dicionário de Português licenciado para Oxford University Press
- Толковый Ñловарь руÑÑкого Ñзыка
- Arkadaş Türkçe Sözlük
Or maybe not. I noted the Oxford copyrights a while back, and they were never at issue; I suggested a possible royalty issue for the now gone The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.And I don't know what's up with this, but you listed 11 dictionaries, and I"ve got 31 in Sierra, many, maybe even most, of which are more logical choices than Turkish.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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n my case the list of options contained only Wikipedia — until I tried the Shift+Click. Click on what?
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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(Type "OS X" in the Apple Dictionary.) Only Wikipedia has an entry for OSX or OS X either of which jump to MacOS.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Shift+Click on the Dictionary icon in Finder, the Dock, or Launchpad
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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(Type "OS X" in the Apple Dictionary.) Only Wikipedia has an entry for OSX or OS X either of which jump to MacOS. Well, that's curious! More: And my Wikipedia entry for OS X looks like the complete page. Who'd think that an app as straightforward as Dictionary would be subject to such major changes? Or. more likely, Dictionary is badly broken.... Strange app to have gone down in flames like that.
Last edited by artie505; 02/04/18 06:15 PM.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Shift+Click on the Dictionary icon in Finder, the Dock, or Launchpad Shift-click does nothing; shift-double-click launches the app with no apparent change...perhaps because there's nothing to be changed in Sierra.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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In Dictionary > Preferences there are 65 Dictionaries listed including those listed under Other Languages even before the Shift+Click trick but no matter which were checked none appeared in the list of selected Dictionaries in the Dictionary window. The list I gave became active when I opened Dictionary with a Shift+Click. The dictionaries in that list and the order of their appearance can be changed in Dictionaries > Preferences. I have no idea how Thai, Russian, or Polish ever got added to my dictionary list but they are no longer there. The Dictionaries themselves are downloaded from the internet when they are selected in Dictionary > Preferences so the time I spent looking for them previously was wasted. 🤷â€â™‚ï¸ As to the dictionary licensing:
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Well, that's curious! Dictionary is badly broken... Strange app to have gone down in flames like that. This sure is confusing. What exactly is curious? What makes you think Dictionary is broken? And have you selected the ' All' tab in Dictionary's window to see what's available?
alternaut ◉ moderator
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Since jonsi's trick was directed at you, I was hoping that it might restore The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, so I was asking joemike which ones he's now got. (It didn't. ) Although it was ostensibly directed at me, I didn't take it as such, since I had implied that I had already checked to see which reference materials had been included in Dictionary (under Preferences). I should have been more definitive. El Capitan has 27 reference works listed — and sadly none is The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. Hence my bemoaning.
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(God only knows what the Apple Dictionary is. Every attempt to elicit a definition results in "No entries found".)
And I still want The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. Sorry I overlooked your comment about the Apple Dictionary. Try terms specific to the Apple Environment such as: - Dock A feature of macOS, the Dock is located along the edge of the screen. It contains icons that you can click to open many of the apps available on the computer, and you can drag icons to and from the Dock.
- Apple File System A file system from Apple for iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS. It’s used to store data on Apple devices. See also APFS.
- APFS A file system from Apple for iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS. It’s used to store data on Apple devices. See also APFS. (On second thought that one may not appear in El Capitan)
…but in truth the content is relatively scanty and pretty rudimentary from what I have seen. The American Heritage Dictionary is available in the App Store, but ONLY for iOS Devices. In fact of the 120 some odd dictionaries cataloged in the MacOS App Store there is a dearth of familiar names. All the old American English standbys such as American Heritage, and Websters are missing. However, they are available as iOS Apps for the iPhone and iPad — for a price. In case you may be wondering why they ar eon iOS and not MacOS, I suggest you, "follow the money." There are literally millions more iPhones and iPads and therefore customers than there are Macs. Personally I am looking forward to a time when we will be able to run iOS apps on our Macs.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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In case you may be wondering why they are on iOS and not MacOS, I suggest you "follow the money." There are literally millions more iPhones and iPads and therefore customers than there are Macs. Personally I am looking forward to a time when we will be able to run iOS apps on our Macs. Amen.
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In Dictionary > Preferences there are 65 Dictionaries listed including those listed under Other Languages even before the Shift+Click trick but no matter which were checked none appeared in the list of selected Dictionaries in the Dictionary window. .... As to the dictionary licensing: I remembered that I've still got a 10.13.3 volume and booted into it... In Dictionary > Preferences I've got 33 dictionaries listed, and those that appear in my 10.12.6 Dictionary window appear in my 10.13.3 window...no tricks necessary. (Screenshot [entirely from 10.13.3] includes licensing, i.e. copyright, info.) The licensing info you've posted is specific to Wikipedia; Apple Dictionary is specifically copyrighted by Apple, and all others are either specifically copyrighted by or Licensed to Oxford University Press, i.e. paid content (under ordinary circumstances, anyhow).
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Well, that's curious! Dictionary is badly broken... Strange app to have gone down in flames like that. This sure is confusing. What exactly is curious? What makes you think Dictionary is broken? And have you selected the ' All' tab in Dictionary's window to see what's available? What I initially found curious - sorry for being a bit obscure - is that as per joemike (Type "OS X" in the Apple Dictionary.) Only Wikipedia has an entry for OSX or OS X either of which jump to MacOS. Apple Dictionary in High Sierra dropped all OS X details without even cross-referencing it to macOS. But even more curious is that when I booted into 10.13.3 just now I found that typing "OS X" in the Apple Dictionary (search box) generates the same results seen in my 10.12.6 "curious" screenshot. Even if the originally noted anomalies didn't leave you thinking "broken", I think that as respects them in combination with what's been introduced here and in my immediately previous post, "broken" is an appropriate word.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Installed MacOS 10.13.3 beta 7 this morning — This could be the GM (Gold Master) but general release should be expected very shortly.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Apple's recent release schedule has been about a year, and High Sierra was released last September, so "very shortly" would be a very significant change in the schedule.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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I think Joe is referring to the Golden Master for 10.13.3, not for 10.14.
dkmarsh—member, FineTunedMac Co-op Board of Directors
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Oops! The next version of macOS couldn't possibly be at .3 already, could it? "Gold Master " threw me, because I've never heard the term used other than with respect to a new version of macOS. And it's really 10.13. 4.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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And, it's really 10.13.4. OOPS!  Yes it is really MacOS 10. 13.4 beta 7. To my knowledge, the use of the term Gold Master in conjunction with up dates began with the public beta releases of updates. Note too that updates may contain minor new features as well as bug fixes and security patches.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Note too that updates may contain minor new features as well as bug fixes and security patches.
I just ran across one in Sierra. When it was released, disabling Notifications left an empty space at the right hand end of my menu bar, and since I reinstalled, the Notifications icon fills the space; I had to boot into an old clone to make sure that I hadn't lost my mind. More: And with luck, 10.13.4 will fix the Keychain Access bug that's kept me in Sierra.
Last edited by artie505; 03/28/18 04:23 PM.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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iOS 11.4 Released for Beta Testing, can MacOS 10.13.5 be far behind?
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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MacOS 10.13.5 beta 1 was about 24 hours behind iOS 11.4 beta 1. If anything the install went a bit more smoothly than usual so that is good. The only new thing so far is Messages in iCloud which means if a message is deleted on one device it is automatically deleted on all devices using the same Apple account. Hallelujah!
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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CONTENT CACHING A cool new feature for those of us with multiple devices. In MacOS 10.13.4 go to System Preferences > Sharing, turn Content Caching ON, allocate some disk space for the cache and to speed things up restart. This will cause updates and app installs to be cached on the system and when other devices make the update it will get it from this cache saving a LOT of download time. According to the documentation it can take a while for other devices to become aware of the cache, but supposedly it works with MacOS 10.13.4 and iOS 11.3 devices. I have just turned it on so I cannot vouch for how well it works yet.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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"…and when other devices make the update it will get it from this cache saving a LOT of download time." So the other devices obviously must be of the same ilk: computer or iDevice, and must be on the same network or just any network? And this would be faster than a high speed Ethernet connection to the download? Enquiring minds want to know. 
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
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The only test I have been able to conduct is an update to my Apple Watch. I click on update on my iPhone expecting a delay of several minutes while the update was downloaded from Apple's servers, instead the actual installation began within a few seconds — apparently it had already been cached on my server where I had set up Content Caching. My wife updated her Apple Watch today and had a similar experience. The devices must be running at least MacOS 10.13.4, iOS 11.3, Watch OS 4.2, or TVOS 11.3. (I think I have all the OS version numbers correct but I am not certain about TVOS), and they must all be on the same LAN (Local Area Network). My internet download speed is generally in the vicinity of 66Mbps and my WiFi network theoretically tops out at 866Mbps. So even if I were using high speed ethernet for my LAN the downloads could not be any faster than I am getting with my WiFi connection because the choke point is Spectrum's cable and their servers, not my LAN. Transferring data between devices on my LAN would be faster which would be a plus for Content Caching. By-the-way actual download speeds from the App Store seldom get anywhere close to the 66Mbps available from my ISP due to the speed of Apple's servers, the instantaneous load factors on those servers, and how internet traffic routing is managed. You might check out this CultOfMac article. You will find instructions for setting it up in this Mac Help Note. For really complex Content Caching situations see this Apple Knowledge Base article and follow the "See Also" links at the bottom of the article. In my case Content Caching is a particular boon because I have it set to cache ALL content which included not only App Store content but iTunes Store, as well as iCloud content such as photos and Documents.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Thanks. Good info.
The Cult of Mac article had some good observations:
"The people who will see the biggest difference are those with slow internet connections, and those with networks that have a lot of users i.e. businesses, or organizations like schools. But if you ever sat waiting for your iPhone to upload a day’s worth of photos over a slow DSL connection, you’ll love content caching too. Your iPhone will sync to the Mac instead, which can then run in the background to do the dirty work of uploading. It’ll even save your iPhone’s battery."
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
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...can MacOS 10.13.5 be far behind? I guess I hope not. My keychain issue was still an issue in a clean install of 10.13.4, and for the first time I tried updating an existing 10.12.6 installation to see if I could make an end run around it, but with no joy. At that point I remembered that I've still got AppleCare, but the tech to whom I spoke was a new hire and not at all up to snuff. (I'll report back on my next try.)
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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...can MacOS 10.13.5 be far behind? I guess I hope not. Actually I am already running MacOS 10.13.5 beta 1 (and iOS 11.4) — the MacOS 10.13.4 golden master was barely a week old when 10.13.5 was released to beta testing. FWIW 10.13.5 has been remarkably problem free — only one app, Airport, has evinced any problem and that problem appears to me to be due to a build control issue on the developer's part and nothing to do with MacOS. Unless the 10.13.5 beta is unusually short I think it is a tossup whether the next release will be 10.13.6 or 10.14 or the 10.13.6 and 10.14 betas will overlap one another.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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For all "end of the model year" OS adopters the time has come to make your move. Although there has not been any announcement of a name for High Sierra's successor, according to this 9to5Mac article most of Apple's current software development efforts are going into MacOS 10.14, iOS 12, WatchOS 5, and TVOS 12. Developer betas should be locked by mid-May so they will be available at the WWDC. in June. Public betas should be available a week or two after that. What major new features will be added is apparently pretty well under wraps, and Apple is taking stringent measures to shut down all new product development leaks. What is pretty pretty well a certainty is the end of support for 32 bit applications so if you still have some it is time to start leaning on their developers — hard!
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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...if you still have some it is time to start leaning on their developers — hard! I've had a bit of luck in that direction, but I've met with resistance in most instances. One developer sent me a 64 bit version of his app back in August (but still hasn't released it to the public ), and another did so several months ago, but I've found that my apps that are still 32 bit at this point are from developers who've either lost interest or just don't realize that their apps' functionality is as irreplaceable today as it was when they first released them. What bothers me particularly is that developers have refused to open-source apps that they don't intend to update. That's just plain selfish!
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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OP
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 16 |
I've had a bit of luck in that direction, but I've met with resistance in most instances. One developer sent me a 64 bit version of his app back in August (but still hasn't released it to the public ), and another did so several months ago, but I've found that my apps that are still 32 bit at this point are from developers who've either lost interest or just don't realize that their apps' functionality is as irreplaceable today as it was when they first released them. You have had better response than I have. I have already gotten rid of or replaced most of the 32 bit apps on my system, but the remainder support very useful hardware, mostly scanners. ( Don't bother to suggest Vuescan as an alternative, it is one of the remaining 32 bit apps.) One developer said they won't start working on 64 versions until the full release version of MacOS that won't support 32 bit applications ships and it will take 6 months to a year for the redevelopment cycle. 👎 Another appeared to have no idea what I was talking about and said they would contact the contractor that developed the software for them in the first place. 🤞 What bothers me particularly is that developers have refused to open-source apps that they don't intend to update. That's just plain selfish! It would not surprise me to find the coding standards and practices in many of those apps are either so idiosyncratic or just downright poor the developer is unwilling for anyone else to see how bad it is because it might hurt their chances of getting another job. (I have known at least two software "wonderkids" who took great pride in writing code that no one else could understand or maintain. They called it job security — we called it grounds for termination.)
Last edited by joemikeb; 04/22/18 10:57 PM. Reason: There is now a 64 bit version of Vuescan and it is better then the 32 bit version I had been using
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15 |
I have already gotten rid of or replaced most of the 32 bit apps on my system, but the remainder support very useful hardware, mostly scanners. (Don't bother to suggest Vuescan as an alternative, it is one of the remaining 32 bit apps.) One developer said they won't start working on 64 versions until the full release version of MacOS that won't support 32 bit applications ships and it will take 6 months to a year for the redevelopment cycle. 👎 I've been looking for replacements for my not particularly critical but nonetheless cherished apps, but with no success, and I'm afraid that Canon is going to jump on this golden opportunity to stop supporting my printer force me to buy a new printer. That one developer's position doesn't make the least bit of sense, especially if se's looking to remain a developer. What bothers me particularly is that developers have refused to open-source apps that they don't intend to update. That's just plain selfish! It would not surprise me to find the coding standards and practices in many of those apps are either so idiosyncratic or just downright poor the developer is unwilling for anyone else to see how bad it is because it might hurt their chances of getting another job. (I have known at least two software "wonderkids" who took great pride in writing code that no one else could understand or maintain. They called it job security — we called it grounds for termination.) Hmmm... Never looked at it that way, but it's a possibility.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 8
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 8 |
(Don't bother to suggest Vuescan as an alternative, it is one of the remaining 32 bit apps.) Just to be clear, the strikethroughs indicate VueScan is available as 64-bit, and has been for quite some time.
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
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My SIERRA dictionary has 25 dictionary options.
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15 |
I finally bit the Keychain Access bullet and upgraded to 10.13.4...and Finder was corrupt: command-I, command-C, and other windows and screen artifacts wouldn't close by ANY means other than quitting Finder, and neither "Restart" nor "Shut Down" worked, and "Sleep" flashed on and immediately off, both from menu bar and control-power pop-up. (Maybe more, but I threw in the towel at that point.)
Back to 10.12.6....waiting for 10.13.5.
Aaargh!!!
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15 |
Got me beat! /Applications/Dictionary.app > Prefs still shows me 31.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 16
Moderator
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OP
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 16 |
I finally bit the Keychain Access bullet and upgraded to 10.13.4...and Finder was corrupt: command-I, command-C, and other windows and screen artifacts wouldn't close by ANY means other than quitting Finder, and neither "Restart" nor "Shut Down" worked, and "Sleep" flashed on and immediately off, both from menu bar and control-power pop-up. As a beta tester I am installing upgrades every few weeks and I never have any problems — but then my user and keychain passwords are the same. Specifically what upgrade process did you follow? Have you considered changing your keychain password to match your user password then after updating changing your keychain password back to whatever you want it to be? Certainly not ideal but if it works you could use it as a workaround.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 16
Moderator
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OP
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 16 |
BREAKING NEWS FOR ARTIE:Check this OS X Daily article. This might explain your bad upgrade.
If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
— Albert Einstein
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15 |
Thanks for the link, but the article pertains to the 10.13.4 update, not to a clean install.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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Re: High Sierra Beta
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15
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Joined: Aug 2009
Likes: 15 |
As a beta tester I am installing upgrades every few weeks and I never have any problems — but then my user and keychain passwords are the same. Specifically what upgrade process did you follow? Have you considered changing your keychain password to match your user password then after updating changing your keychain password back to whatever you want it to be? Certainly not ideal but if it works you could use it as a workaround. I think I've tried every possible variety of clean install imaginable (plus one uograde), all with the same results. I tried your workaround weeks ago, and my keychain turned up empty after a restart, but I couldn't even do it when I tried again a few days ago. I've now got a pretty good handle on what's going on, and I'll post in my "Migration Question" thread after I get my new enclosure from OWC and complete my research.
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.
In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
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