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#47192 - 12/10/17 03:30 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: pbGuy
If one's Login password could be easily compromised, additionally allowing access to Keychain, it would seem a stronger, Login password would mollify this security concern. ...Am I misunderstanding your objective?

My objective is ease of use.

In any particular session, I'm extremely unlikely to have to enter my keychain password more than once, while it's a virtual 100% certainty that I'll have to enter my login/Admin password multiple times, so a complex password would be counter-productive...not to mention a giant PIA.
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#47193 - 12/10/17 08:33 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
If ease of use has simply been your objective, I’ll put forward these thoughts (based upon my use of same password for Login & Keychain) after reading a number of your posts, around FTM about Keychain...

- I’m using a 15-digit alpha-numeric Login/Keychain password and when required to enter, which is seldom after Login, it’s not a PIA. ...I also employ 1PW, when initially needed requires my Master PW (12-digit alpha-numeric) to make active (conveniently set to auto-lock after 90 minutes of no activity) and then, using Cmd / keystrokes to initiate passwords for web logins. ...I’m not being required to continually re-enter my Login/Keychain password throughout my computer sessions.

- In a number of your posts, about Keychain, you’ve referred to being unable to use 2 separate passwords as a HS bug. (My definition of a default-setting bug is when an employed, Default setting does not work as it should.) Since the Support Doc link, previously provided, clearly indicates the Default is to be the same password, IMHO, It seems incorrect to call the inability to employ 2 passwords as a 10.13.x bug. ...Your objective wants to employ a non-default setting which is currently unavailable in High Sierra. As Sierra fulfills your objective, then using 10.12.x works for you; but it’s not accurate to say 10.13.x has a bug when the Support Doc confirms the Default is for these passwords to be the same and when employed, Keychain will subsequently work as expected.

I acknowledge HS has had some early issues, which Apple has timely corrected and no doubt will continue to improve. ...But as I’ve used HS from day one and have not experienced any truly problematic issues, remaining unfixed, with the HS macOS or 3d-party apps compatible with HS, I put forward there’s some misconceptions being bantered about FTM that are mistakenly being accepted, by some, as accurate.
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#47196 - 12/11/17 05:12 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I'll take issue with your interpretations of both "default" and "bug".

"Default" means "there's more than one option, one of them has to be default, and this is the one we've chosen", and while it may suggest a preference on Apple's part, it may also be no more than a necessary starting point, but the fact that there's an Apple provided alternative most assuredly precludes it from being mandated. (I don't know why you think different login and keychain passwords aren't supported in High Sierra when the one option's having been designated as default clearly indicates that there's another, not to mention that I reported precisely the opposite in post #46638.)

macOS is littered with defaults:
  • your desktop pic,
  • your firewall is turned on (I think),
  • FileVault is turned off (Just imagine!),
  • weird, upside down scrolling,
  • fonts, font sizes and colors,
  • window views and sizes...
ad infinitum, and your login and keychain passwords matching is just another instance in which Apple has chosen between options.

And a "bug" is a failure of ANY - not just default - Apple provided functionality, e.g. my alternative keychain password, to work as expected. Even had Apple eliminated the option from High Sierra, [presumably] my keychain would have been migrated as expected, and the first time I booted into it I'd have gotten a pop-up advising me that my keychain password was now the same as my login password because differing passwords were no longer supported...most certainly not an unexplained, empty keychain.

There is, very clearly, a bug in High Sierra that's causing Keychain Access to choke on differing passwords (and, as I reported in post #46760, Apple seems to be working on it).

Next, while your keychain/1Password solution suits your needs and perhaps those of many others, it doesn't suit mine...as my differing passwords solution does.

And finally, you're extrapolating your seamless upgrade to High Sierra to extend to all Mac users, and that, including password issues, is simply NOT the case.

Originally Posted By: pbGuy
...I put forward there’s some misconceptions being bantered about FTM that are mistakenly being accepted, by some, as accurate.

And I put forward that you need some empirical evidence - something along the lines of, say, my four clean installs of three different versions of High Sierra - to support your position.


Edited by artie505 (12/11/17 05:58 PM)
Edit Reason: Knew it soon's I saw it!
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#47199 - 12/11/17 08:44 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
PbGuy and Artie may I remind both of you that name calling or ascribing personal attributes or motives to others is never acceptable on FineTunedMac or our predecessor MacFixit and could result in temporary or permanent banishment from posting.

If you have an opinion about a process, procedure, etc you are welcome to express it but claim it as your personal opinion or choice, and do not assign it to others. You can express disagreement, but never ever characterize or assign negative value to the others, or their opinions.. In fact it is best to never personalize the conversation.
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#47223 - 12/13/17 10:26 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
For my fellow update fanatics information, MadOS MacOS 10.13.3 is — as expected — in beta. No hard information on what it contains, but no new features are expected in this release. I will let you know if I encounter any surprises.


Edited by joemikeb (12/13/17 10:32 AM)
Edit Reason: MacOS not MadOS
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#47427 - 01/07/18 12:49 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
For my fellow update fanatics information, MadOS MacOS 10.13.3 is — as expected — in beta. No hard information on what it contains, but no new features are expected in this release. I will let you know if I encounter any surprises.

Can't wait! (Really)

It occurred to me that throughout my High Sierra/Keychain Access ordeal I never thought to, nor did anybody ever suggest that I, install via simple upgrade, rather than clean install & migration of data, so I just did an upgrade (on an external volume), and my results were consistent with my previously reported results: my "upgraded" login keychain was depopulated, and my keychain password no longer differed from my login password.

:shrug:

As I said...Really! smile

More: I don't think I've ever mentioned that I've run into the same bug with both HFS+ and APFS formatting.
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#47432 - 01/07/18 08:15 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
It occurred to me that throughout my High Sierra/Keychain Access ordeal I never thought to, nor did anybody ever suggest that I, install via simple upgrade, rather than clean install & migration of data, so I just did an upgrade (on an external volume), and my results were consistent with my previously reported results: my "upgraded" login keychain was depopulated, and my keychain password no longer differed from my login password.

:shrug:

As I said...Really! smile

More: I don't think I've ever mentioned that I've run into the same bug with both HFS+ and APFS formatting.

I am not surprised there is no difference in results between HFS+ and APFS as the APFS virtualization layer is specifically intended to make what is going on in the data storage layer absolutely invisible to anything in the applications layer and all indications are it works very well.

As to clean vs. upgrade install the MacOS installer has become very adept at minimizing the effective differences between the two. The only thing the upgrade installer cannot do is identify and eliminate detritus left over from long ago discarded applications, extensions, etc. and that is because it has no way of knowing all of that information or what you might want to keep or discard.

The rationale behind Apple's decision to enforce user and login keychain passwords to match someone familiar. with Apple's security changes will have to explain. Probably not Tim Cook, but someone who reports to him. (I wonder how many users that change has impacted? I suspect very few.) I would posit the decision has as much to do with the advent of the iCloud Keychain as anything else. (See this FAQ for more information abut the iCloud Keychain and its options for storing data on your Mac and/or on iCloud — yeah, yeah I know how much you love iCloud but it is getting harder to ignore. )

I have wondered whether your issue is actually the password difference or just perhaps an obscure glitch in your login keychain file structure itself. If you are still curious and have time for some experimentation you might try:
  1. To potentially eliminate the password as the issue:
    1. change your login keychin password to match your account password.
    2. Run the update/upgrade and see if the login password has been depopulated
    3. If it has NOT been depopulated then the issue is more likely a formatting or other glitch in the login keychain file.
  2. To Fix a damaged keychain file:
    1. Since Apple removed Keychain First Aid there is no simple way to repair a damaged keychain file mad
    2. The only option is to EXPORT the data from your old login keychain before the update/upgrade
    3. perform the update/upgrade
    4. IMPORT the data from your old login keychain into the newly created but depopulated login keychain
    5. Somewhere in that process change the new login keychain password to whatever you want.
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#47448 - 01/08/18 01:48 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The rationale behind Apple's decision to enforce user and login keychain passwords to match someone familiar. with Apple's security changes will have to explain.

No such decision has been made. The option to change your login keychain's password still exists in High Sierra (see below and your own Edit menu), and had it been eliminated, I'd expect to have found a popup advising me that my passwords had been "equalized" the first time I booted into High Sierra...NOT a mystery.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I have wondered whether your issue is actually the password difference or just perhaps an obscure glitch in your login keychain file structure itself. If you are still curious and have time for some experimentation you might try:
  1. To potentially eliminate the password as the issue:
    1. change your login keychin password to match your account password.
    2. Run the update/upgrade and see if the login password has been depopulated
    3. If it has NOT been depopulated then the issue is more likely a formatting or other glitch in the login keychain file.

I've done that...spectacularly unsuccessfully.

Originally Posted By: artie/post #46638
Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra and migrated my data from my boot Sierra volume after changing my keychain password to match my login password, and all was good...for about 5 minutes: my keychain was populated.

I then changed my keychain password so it differed from my login password, shut down, started up, and found that my changed password had reverted and my keychain was depopulated.
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#47451 - 01/08/18 06:51 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Artie, you have probably done this already, but have you looked in ~/Library/Containers/Keychains to see if another login keychain was created when you changed the password or were the contents deleted?

Is there a difference in the size of the populated and depopulated keychains?

Does the creation date on the login keychain change when the file is depopulated?

Obviously none of this solves your issue, but may help explain what is going on if not why.

Have you tried exporting the login keychain contents and then importing them back into the depopulated keychain as a workaround?
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#47469 - 01/09/18 01:36 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
...have you looked in ~/Library/Containers/Keychains to see if another login keychain was created when you changed the password or were the contents deleted?

Not specifically, but I clicked on every item in Keychain Access's sidebar (where a newly created keychain would have appeared), and my missing login items weren't in any of them.

Is there a difference in the size of the populated and depopulated keychains?

Never thought to look.

Does the creation date on the login keychain change when the file is depopulated?

Never thought to look.

Have you tried exporting the login keychain contents and then importing them back into the depopulated keychain as a workaround?

Nope.

Obviously none of this solves your issue, but may help explain what is going on if not why.

I really appreciate your interest and input, but I'm throwing in the towel on this one (until 10.13.3) unless Apple asks me for more input than I've already given them.

If I wanted to work around the bug I could simply equalize my passwords before I migrate my data, leave them equalized afterwards, and be done with it, but I don't like the idea of working around this bug...any critical OS bug for that matter, because the probably unrealistic, totally paranoid specter of something going wrong with the workaround would always be lurking in the back of my head.

Nah, I'll wait for Apple to fix it. (I'm not crazy hot to upgrade to High Sierra anyhow, particularly since I intend to run it HFS+ at first and won't even reap its major benefit, and I don't feel that Meltdown presents enough of a threat to me to allow it to influence my decision.)
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#47510 - 01/10/18 11:41 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
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OS 10.13.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#47513 - 01/10/18 03:41 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: jchuzi]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
FWIW, on my 10.13.2 install I checked ALL the prefPanes to ensure that it was only the App Store prefPane with this issue.....and on my other Macs with earlier OS's the App Store prefPane has no padlock to deal with.

Gaining access to the App Store with no unlock required through the prefPane seems a non-issue in my view as the App Store is directly accessible through the Finder.....if someone has physical access to my machine.
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#47517 - 01/10/18 04:17 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: MacManiac]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
Gaining access to the App Store with no unlock required through the prefPane seems a non-issue in my view as the App Store is directly accessible through the Finder.....if someone has physical access to my machine.

And any critical functionality requires a password, which reinforces your view.
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#47661 - 01/24/18 12:31 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Well, I just did a clean install of High Sierra 10.13.3, and once again my different login and Keychain Access passwords weren't perpetuated nor was my login keychain populated with the entries in my 10.12.6 login keychain. frown

Looks like I'll never get to run High Sierra. :shrug: (at this point)

Bug report filed.

More: I just found High Sierra lost my Mail passwords? which, beginning at #11, hits my problem on the head.

And I just had a flash of insight: Migration Assistant now asks me to choose a password for each admin account BEFORE it migrates my data, and I use the same login password that I've used since time immemorial, NOT my different Keychain Access password, so I'll guess that my data isn't being migrated because MA can't access it, and I'll also guess that if I use the KA password my data will be migrated, and I will hopefully be able to restore my original login password, i.e. my different passwords situation, afterwards.

If so, this is a bad oversight on Apple's part. mad

More later.


Edited by artie505 (01/24/18 01:10 AM)
Edit Reason: More
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#47663 - 01/24/18 03:22 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Same as last time. frown

Changing my password got me a populated login keychain after migration, but subsequently changing my Keychain Access password to differ from my login password left me with an unpopulated keychain after a restart.

Bah! mad

I'll report it to Apple.
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#47670 - 01/24/18 11:03 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Off topic from Artie, but still relevant to this thread: macOS High Sierra 10.13.4 warns users about 32-bit software's impending demise
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OS 10.13.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#47703 - 01/26/18 02:09 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Here we go again. I installed the MacOS 10.13.3 release this morning and this afternoon I am installing MacOS 10.13.4 Pubic Beta 1. No word yet on what, if anything, new is included in this version. On a whim I checked and iOS 11.3 beta is also available.


Edited by joemikeb (01/26/18 02:17 PM)
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#47704 - 01/26/18 03:18 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
New features on initial boot of MacOS 10.13.4 Public beta 1:
  1. A new privacy icon that will appear any time Apple wants to access any of your personal data. There will be an option to permit or disallow the access.
  2. A banner indicting an app (BOINC) needs to be updated or it could hurt overall system performance. No mention of 32 bit apps and no indication Boinc manager is 32 bit, perhaps one of the project apps? (I will contact UC Berkley about this — I am loathe to lose the millions of hours credit I have gotten over the years).
  3. I opened DIctionary and the only one found is Wikipedia the US English, UK English, dictionaries and thesaurus are missing along with Spanish, Greek and several others.
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#47705 - 01/27/18 01:14 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I opened Dictionary and the only one found is Wikipedia the US English, UK English, dictionaries and thesaurus are missing along with Spanish, Greek and several others.

That sucks even more than the 'down-grading' which I found in El Capitan (10.11.6).
Previously (at least under Lion) Dictionary included The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language which provided syllabification of words. In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification.
The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation.

When something isn't broken, why 'fix' it?! mad

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#47707 - 01/27/18 02:00 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
When something isn't broken, why 'fix' it?! mad

Because the credo that drives the Internet is "When you've fixed it and made it work right...break it to make it work better." tongue mad

Or because the royalties were breaking the bank? grin
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#47714 - 01/27/18 10:20 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
From other bread crumbs in 10.13.4 public beta 1, I have to assume the lack of dictionaries is an oversight that will be corrected in future betas. There are too many places where the dictionaries are used in too many Apple and other applications and the holes where the dictionaries should plug in are still there. Interestingly enough the spell checker still seems to be working. Is that separate from the Dictionary❓

Of course there is always that one fateful word "assume". 🤷‍♂️

By-the-way, if you wonder where the Dictionary comes from I found this in Dictionary > Preferences…
Originally Posted By: Dictionary > Preferences
Most text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/> and the GNU Free Documentation License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html>.

That would appear to rule out any consideration of Royalties — at least for the basic dictionary content.


Edited by joemikeb (01/27/18 10:41 AM)
Edit Reason: add source info
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#47716 - 01/27/18 02:22 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
By-the-way, if you wonder where the Dictionary comes from I found this in Dictionary > Preferences…
Originally Posted By: Dictionary > Preferences
Most text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/> and the GNU Free Documentation License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html>.

That would appear to rule out any consideration of Royalties — at least for the basic dictionary content.

When I select Dictionary > Prefs > Wikipedia in Sierra I see the text you posted, but with additional language...

Quote:
Most text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/> and the GNU Free Documentation License <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html>. Check the page for specific licensing terms. Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. (Emphasis added)

It applies to Wikipedia only.

All other dictionaries have appended text similar to this...

Quote:
New Oxford American Dictionary
Copyright © 2010, 2016 by Oxford University Press, Inc. All rights reserved.

Royalties most certainly are an issue and have, perhaps ( tongue ), influenced content.


Edited by artie505 (01/28/18 03:19 AM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
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#47717 - 01/27/18 03:07 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification.
The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation.

In which app do you see those "Tools", and where?
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#47726 - 01/28/18 05:01 PM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I don't know why I didn't ask sooner, but can anyone suggest a reason for Migration Assistant's no longer perpetuating passwords when it migrates accounts...making me select "new" ones before it will migrate mine to High Sierra? (It doesn't balk when I re-use my existing passwords.)

I'm ASSuming that this is new behavior that everyone is seeing.
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#47729 - 01/29/18 08:17 AM Re: High Sierra Beta [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: grelber
In my current version only the New Oxford American Dictionary is included which for some bizarre reason does not include syllabification.
The workaround is a PITA, namely selecting a word in a text, going to Tools and selecting manual hyphenation.

In which app do you see those "Tools", and where?

Sorry. My bad. I should have been more explicit. I meant in MS Word. Previously I could just go to Dictionary and have all sorts of info, including syllabification and etymology, which were much better provided than the Dictionary bits in El Capitan. I'd love to get them back.

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