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#44938 - 06/06/17 06:20 AM APFS & High Sierra
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
From an Apple FAQ, APFS:
"Apple File System is a new, modern file system for iOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS. It is optimized for Flash/SSD storage and features strong encryption, copy-on-write metadata, space sharing, cloning for files and directories, snapshots, fast directory sizing, atomic safe-save primitives, and improved file system fundamentals.

APFS replaces HFS+ as the default file system for iOS 10.3 and later, and macOS 10.13 and later."

Apple says APFS is the default file system, but does that mean one must install APFS or will there be the option to retain HFS+?

Waddya think? confused
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#44948 - 06/06/17 09:37 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Pendragon]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Pendragon
Waddya think? confused

I think both HFS and APFS will be supported — at least in High Sierra. However, it is possible APFS will be mandatory for the boot volume and Recovery Drive.

The conversion was absolutely transparent and completely unnoticeable in iOS 10.3. Hopefully it will be equally transparent in High Sierra. I will let you know as soon as the High Sierra beta is released to beta testers.
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#44951 - 06/06/17 10:14 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Based on Pendragon's citation it sounds like APFS will be mandatory (automatic) only if you upgrade to High Sierra (10.13). Otherwise you keep what you have.
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#44954 - 06/06/17 12:48 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Ira L]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
As with much, just because I can repeat the words and have a notion re the intent and desired operational outcome, in no way does that mean I understand the process.

So thanks to all for helping me along.
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45055 - 06/09/17 09:50 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Ira L]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Ira L
Based on Pendragon's citation it sounds like APFS will be mandatory (automatic) only if you upgrade to High Sierra (10.13). Otherwise you keep what you have.

Reminds me of the HFS -> HFS+ and the APS -> GUID transitions I've been through in the past. I hope the tools I'm used to using (like ditto) continue to be compatible.

I also recall trying to install OS X on an APS formatted drive on an intel mac. After that, the OS X installer refused to run because "your computer can't start from this drive". That was back in what, 2010 or so? I think even to this day you can boot an intel from APS. I kept my service drives formatted this way so one drive could boot intel or ppc (since ppc definitely could NOT boot off guid) and it was always a minor headache to set up a new one.
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#45150 - 06/13/17 03:56 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Pendragon]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Pendragon
Apple says APFS is the default file system, but does that mean one must install APFS or will there be the option to retain HFS+?

Waddya think? confused


It's always a bit dicey to try to predict Apple; they have a long history of zigging when folks thought they would zag.

However, my belief, based on High Sierra betas, is that APFS will not be mandatory in High Sierra--you can keep your drives formatted HFS+ if you want.

There will likely come a time when that changes, of course.
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#45156 - 06/14/17 11:03 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: tacit]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: tacit
It's always a bit dicey to try to predict Apple; they have a long history of zigging when folks thought they would zag.

However, my belief, based on High Sierra betas, is that APFS will not be mandatory in High Sierra--you can keep your drives formatted HFS+ if you want.

There will likely come a time when that changes, of course.

And as stated above, just because they say it won't work when it's changed, it may still work anyway. Maybe for a long time. But they may also (as I found out) make it a nuisance to try to continue doing it the old way, y'know, to encourage you.
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#45200 - 06/16/17 11:39 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Virtual1]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
For those inquiring minds that want to know: Tech 101: Explaining the New Apple File System (APFS)
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#45228 - 06/17/17 09:25 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Another voice on whether or not APFS will be mandatory in High Sierra comes from this MacRumors report on the High Sierra Developers Beta.

Originally Posted By: MacRumors
When installing High Sierra, it will convert to a new, more modern file system called Apple File System or APFS. APFS is safe, secure, and optimized for modern storage systems like solid-state drives. Features like native encryption, crash protection, and safe document saves are built in, plus it is ultra responsive and will bring performance enhancements to Mac.

That appears to imply the file conversion in High Sierra will be as it was in iOS 10.3 — unannounced, automatic, and unobtrusive. The public beta is supposed to be released this month and when it does I will let you know…
  1. if the conversion occurs
  2. if the installer notifies of the change
  3. if there is an alternative offered to retain MacOS Extended (HFS+)
  4. if the conversion appears to take extra time during the install
  5. are all attached drives converted or just the boot drive
In iOS 10.3 the answers were...
  1. Yes
  2. No
  3. No or N/A
  4. No
  5. N/A
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#45229 - 06/17/17 09:36 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Joe,

We all know (sorta) that APFS will make Macs with SSDs run faster. But will APFS on spinning rust drives make those Macs run slower than they did on HFS+? confused
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45234 - 06/17/17 11:24 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Pendragon]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Pendragon
We all know (sorta) that APFS will make Macs with SSDs run faster. But will APFS on spinning rust drives make those Macs run slower than they did on HFS+? confused

Your guess is as good as mine, but I am guessing (NOT assuming) any performance change on spinning rust will be unnoticeable in normal use. MacOS Extended (HFS+) is old (1990s), creaky, full of patches, and lacks many features expected of a modern file system. So even though APFS is optimized for SSDs it is more likely to improve spinning rust performance than degrade it. If iOS 10.3 is any indication the APFS conversion will be invisible unless you go looking for it. Let me reiterate, that is my GUESS.

That is not to say there won't be some users who will vehemently declare Apple is the evil empire personified and have irreparably damaged/destroyed their HDs and/or Macs with the change to an untested and unknown file system when they could have used the perfectly good MS-DOS. laugh


Edited by joemikeb (06/17/17 11:25 AM)
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#45244 - 06/18/17 05:28 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Take a look at this MacRumors report on High Sierra to learn more about why you would want to convert to APFS.
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joemikeb • moderator

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#45245 - 06/18/17 08:03 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I think I can speak for all of us in saying that with High Sierra, more than ever before, we're looking forward to your pre-release reports.
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45247 - 06/18/17 11:33 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think I can speak for all of us in saying that with High Sierra, more than ever before, we're looking forward to your pre-release reports.

Which is interesting to me, because by Apple's own admission High Sierra is almost entirely an "under the hood" release. Other than some security control tweaks in Safari (which are already available in Safari Technology Preview), some enhanced image editing tools in Photos, and a few tweaks in what can be stored on iCloud very little will be apparent to the average user.

Personally I am interested in what and how much cross fertilization of features there will be between High Sierra and iOS 11. The iOS 11 apps/features Files, App Switcher, and Drag & Drop are all targeted at making the iPad Pro a serious alternative to the MacBook Air and MacBook for dedicated road warriors (it is a lot easier to go through the TSA security check with an iPad than a MacBook and This 9to5Mac article shows the new iPad Pro outperforming the new MacBook Pro in some speed tests.). Third party apps have already made the iPad Pro/Apple Pencil combo useful I/O devices for Apple Desktops and iCloud enhancements will make it even easier to split tasks between the iPad and Mac to take maximum advantage of the I/O strengths of each platform. The dividing lines between MacOS, iCloud, and iOS is looking more and more like a continuum rather than discrete environments -- which appears to me where Apple is headed in the long term.

This 9to5Mac article shows the new iPad Pro outperforming the new MacBook Pro in some speed tests.
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#45249 - 06/18/17 01:11 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think I can speak for all of us in saying that with High Sierra, more than ever before, we're looking forward to your pre-release reports.

Which is interesting to me, because by Apple's own admission High Sierra is almost entirely an "under the hood" release. Other than some security control tweaks in Safari (which are already available in Safari Technology Preview), some enhanced image editing tools in Photos, and a few tweaks in what can be stored on iCloud very little will be apparent to the average user.

And therein lies the story... We'll be waiting to hear if the transition is a seamless as it's supposed to be...whether it all remains "under the hood" where it belongs.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45275 - 06/21/17 08:41 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Everything I am reading indicates the conversion to APFS takes place as part of the High Sierra installation and is NOT OPTIONAL.

For you CCC fans here is another interesting tid-bit about APFS.
Originally Posted By: CCC High Sierra update
  • The Dynamic Linker Shared Cache appears to be broken. This version of CCC will avoid rebuilding that cache if running on High Sierra to avoid system instability.
  • APFS startup volumes can be cloned to an HFS+ destination, resulting in a bootable backup on the destination. The sematics for the Recovery volume have changed, however, so CCC will not create a Recovery volume on the HFS+ destination when cloning from an APFS source volume.
  • APFS startup volumes have new, proprietary Recovery, Virtual Memory, and Preboot volumes. Adding support for these new volume types will take a considerable amount of engineering effort, so support for these is not currently available in this release of CCC. CCC can make a backup of your user and system files to an APFS volume, but it will not produce a bootable backup on an APFS destination. Use an HFS+ destination for now if you require a bootable backup.

{emphasis added}
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#45282 - 06/21/17 11:11 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Gads! Not having a bootable backup is a bit (a big bit) of a game changer for me, e.g., I may delay updating to High Sierra until Carbon Copy Cloner (or SD!) gets theses issues resolved.

And I fear DiskWarrior will also have issues with APFS.

<rant>
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45284 - 06/21/17 01:45 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Pendragon]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Pendragon
Gads! Not having a bootable backup is a bit (a big bit) of a game changer for me, e.g., I may delay updating to High Sierra until Carbon Copy Cloner (or SD!) gets theses issues resolved.

And I fear DiskWarrior will also have issues with APFS.

<rant>

In the interim, I will probably install High Sierra on what would normally be my clone drive then eithe clone my regular boot drive to a sparse image file on that drive or simply rely on Time Machine to keep my data recoverable.

As for Diskwarrior, Drive Genius, Techtool Pro, et. al. SMART reporting, surface scans, and any hardware tests should remain unchanged; file and/or volume optimization of APFS volumes would be pointless at best or even counter productive, volume repair of APFS volumes could range anywhere from a few simple tweaks to a completely new from scratch rewrite.

On the other hand as of last Friday I have had two rotating rust hardware failures in the past month and it has been at least three or four years since I have needed repair the volume structure of a drive. So Diskwarrior, Drive Genius, and TechTool Pro repair features Have not been of any value. In fairness, the TTP SMART check detected two out of the last three drive failures and SoftRAID detected the other, but neither utility can repair hardware failures. My point is hardware failure is proving significantly more frequent than software (volume/directory structure) damage. APFS is unlikely to change that and just may make volume/directory structure damage even less common.

COMMENT: I have long touted surface scans as the best means of detecting impending drive failure but TechTool Pro SMART reporting that shows each of the SMART parameters individually instead of the aggregate pass/fail or verified/not verified together with a little informed interpretation on the part of the user is causing me to re-examine my thesis. I still contend Disk Utility's verified/non-verified report, also used be many other utilities is useless for anything other than confirming the drive has already failed.
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#45319 - 06/23/17 12:27 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I just checked in at CCC's website, and I found this apparent update of the statement you've already posted:

The current beta of CCC 4 already works with APFS insofar as CCC can copy files to and from that filesystem. The current beta can also make bootable backups from an APFS startup disk to an HFS+ formatted destination volume – we've already tested that, and in the little bit of testing that we've done so far, that works great. The current feature set of CCC 4 will be qualified against High Sierra – creating bootable HFS+-based backups and working with CoreStorage encrypted backups will be qualified and functional (barring any OS bugs) and we aim to complete that by the time Apple ships High Sierra in the Fall.

Creating a bootable APFS volume, however, is brand-new territory. The semantics of starting a Mac from an APFS volume are completely different from those of an HFS+ volume. We have established a procedure to create an APFS startup volume, though, and we've even created a proof-of-concept bootable APFS clone. What lies ahead is a massive amount of engineering work to build support for these new procedures into CCC. APFS encryption is also handled quite differently from CoreStorage encryption, so we have a lot of work to do in regard to building in support for automatically unlocking and mounting APFS encrypted backup volumes. We're aiming to offer new functionality for creating APFS bootable (and optionally encrypted) backups by the time Apple ships macOS High Sierra in the Fall.

It seems to allay Harv's fears...to a degree, anyhow, but your informed opinion will be appreciated.

Hmmm... Your original CCC quote said "Use an HFS+ destination for now if you require a bootable backup", so were Harv's fears unfounded in the first place?
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45331 - 06/23/17 11:21 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Everything I am reading indicates the conversion to APFS takes place as part of the High Sierra installation and is NOT OPTIONAL.


Here's recent details (6/19/17) from Ars Technica Quick Look ...Overall, an interesting preview.

Looking at the second paragraph under APFS, note that the current Beta allows user to uncheck the APFS box (it's checked by default). Continuing in the follow-up paragraph, Ars Tech says High Sierra can boot from an HFS+ drive.

So unless something changes in the final version, we may be able to determine whether or not to complete the APFS conversion when installing High Sierra.
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#45333 - 06/23/17 11:40 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: pbGuy
...Ars Tech says High Sierra can boot from an HFS+ drive.

Thanks for that; not that I doubted Mike Bombich's statement, but confirmation is always nice.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45335 - 06/23/17 12:50 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: artie505]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Many thanks to you all for the updates. Indeed I am greatly relieved that bootable backups may continue as in the past, or nearly so. Of course, real-world confirmation will go a long way towards putting this issue to rest.
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27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45337 - 06/23/17 07:07 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: Pendragon]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I got this "Rocket Yard" article from Other World Computing this afternoon and it has a big section on APFS. As I read ab out the features APFS offers
  • Clones — the ability to make file copies on the same volume without occupying more storage space
  • Snapshots — that allow APFS to make a point in time read only instance of the file system
  • Native full disk encryption
  • Increased number of files
  • Crash protection — that avoids corrupted records that occur during a file update by writing new records instead of overwriting existing records in place
  • Space sharing — multiple logical volumes in the same container and containers tht can span multiple drives
I thought, "A file system that is faster, safer, conserves storage space, and is more reliable — what is not to like?"

"What is to be afraid of?"
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#45338 - 06/23/17 10:19 PM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for the link...interesting read, although I can't say that I fully understand what Clones and Snapshots do, or, more precisely, what they do for me.

I like "...if the hundreds of millions of flawless migrations to APFS in iOS 10 are any indication, the same migration with macOS High Sierra should go well", though.

(Although it's not directly connected to APFS, I'm most affected by [it's mentioned in a comment] Apple's impending abandonment of support for 32 bit apps, Office 2011 in particular. Do upgrade to 2016 now? Will 2016 be fully functional with APFS? Do I wait to see the state of the alternatives. [Rats! I just bought 2011 not all that long ago.] Sadly, most of the 32 bit apps I run regularly haven't been updated in years, and I fear that I'm going to lose a handful of wonderful, irreplaceable oldies. frown )
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45343 - 06/24/17 05:08 AM Re: APFS & High Sierra [Re: artie505]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
In High Sierra-

What is the relationship (if any) of APFS to 32/64 bit applications?

Is the 64 bit requirement linked/tied to APFS, or is it that both of these are merely being rolled out with High Sierra? confused
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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