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#44931 - 06/06/17 12:57 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower
And I say "shame on Apple." I will go back in time and get a notebook that still has most of the ports included even though the fire wire and ethernet ports aren't there. I still can't upgrade my RAM but 8 is enough! Get it? Wow, that was unintended.

joemike was spot on when he recommended that you wait until after the WWDC to buy your new MBP. smile

With the release of the latest MBPs, the price of a Refurbished March 2015 MacBook Pro 13" w 128 GB SSD & 8 GB RAM has dropped to $929!!!

Originally Posted By: Apple Refurbished Store
Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.7GHz Dual-core Intel i5 with Retina Display
Originally released March 2015
13.3-inch (diagonal) Retina display; 2560-by-1600 resolution at 227 pixels per inch

8GB of 1866MHz LPDDR3 onboard memory

128GB PCIe-based flash storage1 (artie: I've got no idea what the "1" superscript means; maybe a typo?)
720p FaceTime HD Camera

Intel Iris Graphics 6100
$929.00
Save $270.00
22% off
Select

You can wait for one with a 256 GB SSD to come up if you like; one will...for $100 or so more, sooner or later.

By the way, now is a good time to report that the refurbished 2012 MBP my daughter bought earlier this year came in a glitzy retail box, not a generic one such as Apple has used for refurbs for years.

I was going to pass on responding to LA Computer Company's email, but I took a quick look, and it was easier than I thought it would be.

Originally Posted By: LA Computer Company
We have the MF840 256GB flash in Refurbished for $1249.00 and you can get a 1 year warranty for $129.00. link below

https://www.lacomputercompany.com/refurb...256-detail.html

I do not understand what you friend is saying about the touch bar did not come out till 2016, both the models are current right now."

1. The MBP to which they linked you was refurbished by THEM, comes with their own 90 day warrantee and is eligible for ONLY their own 1 year warrantee, NOT AppleCare...a fools errand in my estimation.

2. I don't understand what they don't understand about the Touch Bar.

3. Regardless of why the initial owner of the first MBP returned it, it has been wasting precious AppleCare time since January.

Aside: I just noticed that Apple is still selling new 2015 15"ers but has stopped selling new 13"ers.
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#44942 - 06/06/17 07:40 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
I don't know how that happened but it was a link about upgrading SSD cards on a retina mac. There are so many videos that I realized that you guys already know this. It's just RAM that can't be upgraded, right? I could no absolutely no videos upgrading RAM on a retina. So, I guess they did make it impossible.

I did find a video of a guy doing some benchmark stuff to disprove Apple's excuse for not letting us increase RAM. Something about slowing stuff down which he said was negligible. He couldn't prove it on a Mac but used another computer and benchmarks to prove it.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Bad link, Rita! frown
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#44943 - 06/06/17 07:43 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Right, we are not going to switch so they have us by the short hairs. Though I have read where some people switched because they were so disgusted about the way things are going. I am sure they are few and far between though.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Oh, yeah, I misread it. frown But the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: plantsower
That's what I thought. I would think Tacit would know that. He's way more techie than I. Thanks, Jon.

Remember: tacit's response was directed at Retina MacBooks which was your primary interest — not iMacs.
(Compare Apples to Apples, so to speak.)

Going back a bit in time to clarify, I don't know why there was any confusion, because tacit very clearly said in post #44898:

Quote:
The issue is that the Retina MacBooks are made to be incredibly thin and light, because that's what the market demands. To get the size and weight down, Apple has started doing things like making the RAM soldered on--there are no RAM slots (just getting rid of the RAM slots allowed Apple to make the computer about 40% thinner).

That means you can never add more RAM after you buy it. Buy it with as much RAM as you can get! (Emphasis added)

And Jon's "AFA[I]K, only the 27" Retina iMacs have user-upgradeable RAM." obliquely seconded the motion.

I wonder if Apple's market research respondents who preferred thinner and lighter fully understood its implications on the size of the resultant total package?

And I suspect that their research determined that the feelings of current Mac owners are inconsequential, because we ain't about to switch. frown
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#44949 - 06/06/17 09:45 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
$1,000 to $2,500 is an awfully big range; may I ask what it encompasses?
Notice that is that much MORE than what I paid for my Late 2012 Mac mini. The range is based on the different iMac models and my chosen custom configuration (display size, processor; SSD, Fusion, or spinning rust drive, Memory, etc.. Knowing my predilections it will be closer to the high end. The iMac Pro is technologically enticing but way too pricey for my bank account.
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#44950 - 06/06/17 09:57 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: joemikeb]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Yeah, $5,000 to start!!!!

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
$1,000 to $2,500 is an awfully big range; may I ask what it encompasses?
Notice that is that much MORE than what I paid for my Late 2012 Mac mini. The range is based on the different iMac models and my chosen custom configuration (display size, processor; SSD, Fusion, or spinning rust drive, Memory, etc.. Knowing my predilections it will be closer to the high end. The iMac Pro is technologically enticing but way too pricey for my bank account.
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#44955 - 06/06/17 01:19 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower
It's just RAM that can't be upgraded, right?

Nope, SSDs can't be upgraded either; both the drives and DIMMS are soldered to the motherboard. (I imagine that both actually can be upgraded if you can get hold of the components and are skillful with a soldering iron, but I"m not certain.)
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#44956 - 06/06/17 02:13 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The only available upgrades are:
  • The operating system
  • Applications
  • External devices plugged into the various USB or Thunderbolt ports
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#44957 - 06/06/17 03:13 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: joemikeb]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
I found several youtube videos that show how to replace/upgrade SSDs on retinas though only up through 2015.



Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The only available upgrades are:
  • The operating system
  • Applications
  • External devices plugged into the various USB or Thunderbolt ports
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#44958 - 06/06/17 03:13 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
I found several youtube videos that show how to replace/upgrade SSDs on retinas though only up through 2015.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
It's just RAM that can't be upgraded, right?

Nope, SSDs can't be upgraded either; both the drives and DIMMS are soldered to the motherboard. (I imagine that both actually can be upgraded if you can get hold of the components and are skillful with a soldering iron, but I"m not certain.)
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#44961 - 06/06/17 04:00 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I found several youtube videos that show how to replace/upgrade SSDs on retinas though only up through 2015.

I'd like to look at one to see what was done; can you provide a link?

On thinking, the SSD, itself, may not be soldered in, but there may be an issue with getting one with the appropriate "connector".
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#44963 - 06/06/17 04:05 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Here ya go: Upgrading SSDs on retina Macs


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I found several youtube videos that show how to replace/upgrade SSDs on retinas though only up through 2015.

I'd like to look at one to see what was done; can you provide a link?

On thinking, the SSD, itself, may not be soldered in, but there may be an issue with getting one with the appropriate "connector".
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iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119

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#44964 - 06/06/17 04:34 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower

Somebody else will have to deal with this one, Rita.

It doesn't look at all difficult, but I dunno how it fits with what's been posted.

I just checked with OWC, and a 240 GB replacement SSD for the MBP you're looking at costs $269 + tools, which seems like more than it would cost from Apple. (Maybe somebody should double-check me.)

More: I just looked at Customize MacBook Pro, and an Apple installed upgrade from 128 GB to 256 GB for the newest low-end MBP costs only $200.

Still more: You could sell your 128 GB SSD, but that could leave you in a bad position as respects your AppleCare.

And even more: What strikes me as strange is that the SSD housing in the video looks like it was designed to be user serviceable despite the fact that Apple says that it isn't.


Edited by artie505 (06/06/17 05:08 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45021 - 06/08/17 04:04 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
No word on the Mac Pro (if it has not been supplanted by the iMac Pro)....

Not to be cynical or anything like that, but leave it to Apple to upgrade a machine for which people have already bought monitors to one that requires their buying new ones. crazy
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45022 - 06/08/17 06:52 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
pbGuy Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
No word on the Mac Pro (if it has not been supplanted by the iMac Pro)....

...leave it to Apple to upgrade a machine for which people have already bought monitors to one that requires their buying new ones. ...


I've tangentially followed commentary, by Podcasting attendees, and the word within WWDC, is that the iMac Pro is NOT a Mac Pro replacement. ( See Apple's iMac Pro Press Release and look down to the 2d paragraph below the picture. ) ...So, it's expected there will be an updated / upgraded Mac Pro.
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#45024 - 06/08/17 07:15 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: pbGuy]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for the clarification.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#45029 - 06/08/17 09:15 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Yeah, I always wonder about that. They don't want you to change your own battery but I know people do. I just looked and yeah, about $175 difference between 256 GB and 125 GB. Woe is me. Decisions, decisions.



Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower

Somebody else will have to deal with this one, Rita.

It doesn't look at all difficult, but I dunno how it fits with what's been posted.

I just checked with OWC, and a 240 GB replacement SSD for the MBP you're looking at costs $269 + tools, which seems like more than it would cost from Apple. (Maybe somebody should double-check me.)

More: I just looked at Customize MacBook Pro, and an Apple installed upgrade from 128 GB to 256 GB for the newest low-end MBP costs only $200.

Still more: You could sell your 128 GB SSD, but that could leave you in a bad position as respects your AppleCare.

And even more: What strikes me as strange is that the SSD housing in the video looks like it was designed to be user serviceable despite the fact that Apple says that it isn't.
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#45054 - 06/09/17 09:47 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The Retina display is not the culprit in making newer MacBooks more difficult to repair. The difficulty is the result of several factors driven by public demand for more speed, lighter weight, and longer battery life. I don't have any statistics, but the engineering involved would suggest repairs are less likely. The downside is if repairs are needed they will be more difficult and therefore more expensive, or even impossible.

Yep, brackets, screws, the brackets for the screws to go INTO, depth for the flush screw heads, it all adds up quite a bit when you're going for ultra-thin. Glue is so much easier all around - faster to assemble, often stronger hold (due to large surface area), lighter, lowers component count, greatly reduces machining, lighter. saves space. Consumer demand (for size, weight, and price) are the driving force. For every 1 person that wants their computer to be more easily serviced, there's 30 that want faster, lighter, and certainly lower priced.

Looking back at all the repair work I did on iPods back in the day, many of those screws were approaching microscopic, and I had to be especially careful to keep track of them. Drop one of those on the floor and you're unlikely to get it back. (sweep with a magnet is your only hope... and you'll probably come back with several screws) Screws that had one and a half total turns of threading on them. Many screws whose head was narrower than my smallest screwdriver tip. When you're mainly concerned with ease of assembly, compare that to say, a dab of glue and stuff the battery in. It's easy to see which option the assemblers support.
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#45058 - 06/09/17 10:09 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: Virtual1]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
But what about the poor slob at Apple who actually has to repair it?



Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The Retina display is not the culprit in making newer MacBooks more difficult to repair. The difficulty is the result of several factors driven by public demand for more speed, lighter weight, and longer battery life. I don't have any statistics, but the engineering involved would suggest repairs are less likely. The downside is if repairs are needed they will be more difficult and therefore more expensive, or even impossible.

Yep, brackets, screws, the brackets for the screws to go INTO, depth for the flush screw heads, it all adds up quite a bit when you're going for ultra-thin. Glue is so much easier all around - faster to assemble, often stronger hold (due to large surface area), lighter, lowers component count, greatly reduces machining, lighter. saves space. Consumer demand (for size, weight, and price) are the driving force. For every 1 person that wants their computer to be more easily serviced, there's 30 that want faster, lighter, and certainly lower priced.

Looking back at all the repair work I did on iPods back in the day, many of those screws were approaching microscopic, and I had to be especially careful to keep track of them. Drop one of those on the floor and you're unlikely to get it back. (sweep with a magnet is your only hope... and you'll probably come back with several screws) Screws that had one and a half total turns of threading on them. Many screws whose head was narrower than my smallest screwdriver tip. When you're mainly concerned with ease of assembly, compare that to say, a dab of glue and stuff the battery in. It's easy to see which option the assemblers support.
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#45073 - 06/09/17 08:15 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: plantsower
But what about the poor slob at Apple who actually has to repair it?


It turns out that, if you have the right tools and training, glue is easier to repair.

Take the iPhone, for instance. It's held together largely by glue and magnets. The magnets are easy; you use a special jig that's got suction cups on it. Put the iPhone in the jig, close it, open it, the iPhone is open. Impossible without the special tool; trivial with it.

But what about the glue?

Heat!

You use a specially calibrated heat gun. It softens the glue, then u=you use a flat plastic paddle and the parts just come apart. Then you apply a strip of adhesive to the new part, peel, press, boom! No screws to lose or strip. But again, the cost is that without the right tools, you're dead in the water.
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#45074 - 06/09/17 08:35 PM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: tacit]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Well, the old saying "you're only as good as your tools" is so true. Makes a world of difference. Thanks for pointing that out.


Originally Posted By: tacit
Originally Posted By: plantsower
But what about the poor slob at Apple who actually has to repair it?


It turns out that, if you have the right tools and training, glue is easier to repair.

Take the iPhone, for instance. It's held together largely by glue and magnets. The magnets are easy; you use a special jig that's got suction cups on it. Put the iPhone in the jig, close it, open it, the iPhone is open. Impossible without the special tool; trivial with it.

But what about the glue?

Heat!

You use a specially calibrated heat gun. It softens the glue, then u=you use a flat plastic paddle and the parts just come apart. Then you apply a strip of adhesive to the new part, peel, press, boom! No screws to lose or strip. But again, the cost is that without the right tools, you're dead in the water.
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#45140 - 06/13/17 10:48 AM Re: To Retina or not, this is the question [Re: plantsower]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Also the more exotic tools make all the difference.

After literally months of repairing iPads, I developed an "iPad Oven" at work. It was a medium size cardboard box with a raised platform in it. at one end it was open, at the other end there was a slot cut across the top. Place iPad on the platform. Set heat gun to medium, pointing into box, and spaced exactly 8" away. Run for 5 minutes. Remove with garden gloves (it will be HOT!) and quickly lift off the screen before it cools. That setup allowed me to disassemble iPads as fast as the others could assist me with repairing them. It was incredible.

This was after many annoying weeks of burning fingers and digging glass shards from adhesives and replacing melted buttons and bezels.

Last time I stopped into the shop, I saw a tool straight from Apple (more-or-less) that looked like a big clamshell riveter. Place iPhone, plug it in and turn on the switch to turn on heat, lower lever until plunger contacts glass, wait a bit, lift. I looked at that and thought to myself "And that used to take me a half an hour and six wads of hair, with only a 75% chance of getting the screen off without breaking it!"

Yes, the right tool (or in this case, the right jig) for the job makes all the difference in the world.

Also keep in mind that most places don't repair your gear. You get back someone else's that they repaired last week. Yours goes into the pile to be sent to some 3rd party for "remanufacturing". They get a pallet of them to work on, and aren't too concerned with throwing some away that simply aren't worth the effort. Those go to some recycler or overseas to smoke out the precious metals where environmental laws are like what the US will have in the next few years. That pallet may go to mexico or philippines to have some dollar-an-hour kid work on to remove the shattered glass without getting too much in his fingers. Hard to say. Once taken apart and the broken bits removed and adhesives cleaned off, it either goes back to the manufacturer to replace and put back in the warranty return pile, or maybe the 3rd party finishes the repair before returning it. All of this, along with not having to get you back YOUR iPhone in 5 working days really lowers their cost. Boat trips to where the cheap labor is end up saving them a ton.
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