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#44476 - 05/01/17 02:31 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
(It's not critical now that I've got a router with two built-in wireless networks, but going your route will turn my Base Station into a dedicated print server, leaving me unable to use it for Internet,

I understood you were installing the printer using a SPARE Internet Express not an Airport Base Station, Airport Express that you are using to create your network. confused What I am proposing requires a dedicated Airport Express or other print server to work. If you are not attempting to use a dedicated AE then lets drop the whole matter. If my initial understanding was correct then...

Originally Posted By: artie505
I was getting absolutely nowhere with the instructions, though, and was just about to throw in the towel when I realized that, as I invariably do, I had forgotten to turn my printer on.

You too blush Glad I'm not the only one that pulls that trick.

Originally Posted By: Artie505
The going was smoother after that, except in step 1, AirPort Utility asked me to choose a network (to join) from its drop-down, and the printer wasn't on the list, nor was I able to find a way to get it there.

The printer should NOT be on the list of networks to join. You want the Airport Express to join the same network your Mac is connected to. That should be on the list unless it is a "hidden" network. If that is the case your will have to type in the network name.

Originally Posted By: artie505
The newly added printer shows up as an option in a "Print" pane, but I've got no idea how to get macOS to connect to it.

If the printer was previously installed on your Mac via USB...
  1. delete USB connected printer by selecting it in System Preferences > Printers & Scanners and clicking on the minus sign (-) at the bottom of the list of printers and acknowledging you want to delete the printer
  2. after the USB connected printer is deleted, click on the plus (+) sign at the bottom of the list and selecting the networked printer from the list of available printers that will appear. It will have a name something like "Cannon IP4500" and a type of "Bonjour"
  3. click on the "Add" button and wait while the printer installs.
  4. The next time you click on Print or Command+P your Canon should appear on the list of available printers,
  5. Select it and click on the Print button.
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#44485 - 05/03/17 01:28 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
(It's not critical now that I've got a router with two built-in wireless networks, but going your route will turn my Base Station into a dedicated print server, leaving me unable to use it for Internet,

I understood you were installing the printer using a SPARE Internet Express not an Airport Base Station, Airport Express that you are using to create your network. confused What I am proposing requires a dedicated Airport Express or other print server to work. If you are not attempting to use a dedicated AE then lets drop the whole matter. If my initial understanding was correct then...

You were correct, but my explanation was typically obscure.

I"ve been using my AirPort Express for Internet, but my router's got built-in 2.4 and 5 GHz networks, so I moved my Internet to the 5GHz network and turned my AE into a dedicated spare to use for this project.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: Artie505
The going was smoother after that, except in step 1, AirPort Utility asked me to choose a network (to join) from its drop-down, and the printer wasn't on the list, nor was I able to find a way to get it there.

The printer should NOT be on the list of networks to join. You want the Airport Express to join the same network your Mac is connected to. That should be on the list unless it is a "hidden" network. If that is the case your will have to type in the network name.

After following your instructions I got to this point, but I still couldn't print.

This may be the kicker, though... The 5 GHz FiOS network I joined was neither in the AirPort Utility drop-down nor hidden, but I typed it in anyhow. I just noticed, though, that NONE of the 5 GHz FiOS networks that appear in my menu bar WiFi drop-down appear in the AU drop-down: only the 2.4 GHz networks appear.

It looks like I can only do this via the 2.4 GHz FiOS network (which will, of course, limit my connectivity options).

Back to square one. frown

Update: Catch 22'd!!! mad

I went out for a walk, planning to start over with the 2.4 GHz network when I got back, but the fresh air cleared my head, and I realized that changing my AE status from "Create..." to "Join..." would disable it as respects AirPlay, which I run 24/7, and since I print extremely infrequently, AirPlay won the day.

At some point I"ll try the 2.4 GHz network, and if I'm able to print, I'll maybe buy a 2nd generation "n" AirPort Express if Apple comes up with some refurbs...and I"m able to find an outlet into which to plug it. (I HATE the new AE's which lie flat unless you spring for a wall-mounting kit! Hmmm... Anybody got an opinion on Vertically mount the new AirPort Express with Apple AC wall plug? Other than the plug's obstructing the WAN port which I don't need, I don't see any down side.)


Edited by artie505 (05/03/17 03:24 AM)
Edit Reason: Update
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#44493 - 05/03/17 12:35 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Apparently you have a first generation Airport Express and those predate 802.11n and the 5GHz band. However with almost all dual band WiFi routers any device connected to the 5GHz band can connect to any device on the 2.4 GHz band and vice versa. For example I have a number of devices (2 Brother printers with built in wireless connectivity, a stand alone Fujitsu copier, sprinkler systems, door locks, lighting controls, garage door openers etc.) that are 2.4GHz ONLY but I can access all of them from my Mac, iPhone and iPad connected to the 5GHz band. I don't know, or particularly care, which band the three printers using Airport Expresses as print servers are connected to.

When I have a choice, I will connect printers and other low volume devices to the 2.4GHz network and save the 5GHz for high volume loads. In fact with the exception of 2.4GHz ONLY devices, my Netscape router automatically identifies low volume devices and moves their connection to the 2.4GHz band.

Why do you have to create a network on your AE for Air Play? According to this Apple article you just have to be on the same local area network. Using either an Airport Base Station or my Netgear router that includes both the 2.4GHz and 5GHz networks created on the same device. While Verizon may have some funky configuration on their WiFi router I can't imagine they would restrict communications on the same local area network. To be clear I have three network IDs appearing here all created by the same Netgear WiFi router...
  • 2.4 GHz
  • 5GHz
  • Guest
With the right password you can log onto any one of the three. Guest is a special network for visitors that connects only to the internet. But anyone logged onto either of the other two has full access to any device on either network, including AirPlay. With so called Mesh routers there is no differentiation between bands it is all hidden in the firmware/software of the router and appears as a single network.
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#44497 - 05/03/17 05:30 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Apparently you have a first generation Airport Express and those predate 802.11n and the 5GHz band.

Nope; I couldn't be engaged in this experiment if I didn't have at least a 1st generation "n" AirPort Express. (The older ones haven't been supported, i.e. configurable with AirPort Utility, since a few versions of OS X back.)

Here's what I"m seeing: this screenshot shows that my AE isn't seeing any of the 5 GHz FiOS networks, while this one shows that it is seeing other 5 GHz networks at the same time. confused

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Why do you have to create a network on your AE for Air Play? According to this Apple article you just have to be on the same local area network.

Your linked doc deals with iOS devices, not Macs.

Originally Posted By: Linked doc
What you can AirPlay

You can AirPlay music from an iOS device to an Apple TV, AirPort Express, or AirPlay enabled speakers.

I suspect that playing music to an AirPort Express is an exercise similar to the one in which I"m engaged.

To run AirPlay on a Mac, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be able to connect to its network. (I imagine that that's the same way my old Lexmark printer that did function through my AE worked.)


Edited by artie505 (05/03/17 11:09 PM)
Edit Reason: Add link & More
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#44505 - 05/04/17 06:44 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Here's what I"m seeing: this screenshot shows that my AE isn't seeing any of the 5 GHz FiOS networks, while this one shows that it is seeing other 5 GHz networks at the same time. confused

I am confused too. I assume you scrolled down the list of networks to see if the 5 GHz bands showed up later further down the list.

Originally Posted By: artie505
I suspect that playing music to an AirPort Express is an exercise similar to the one in which I"m engaged.

To run AirPlay on a Mac, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be able to connect to its network.

"you must be able to connect to its network" may not be not the best wording. Airplay works fine from my Mac, my iPad, iPhone, and Apple TV to a sound system connected to an AE that has joined the network created by my Netgear WiFi Router. Perhaps a better wording might be you must be connected to the same network?
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#44514 - 05/05/17 01:00 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
Here's what I"m seeing: this screenshot shows that my AE isn't seeing any of the 5 GHz FiOS networks, while this one shows that it is seeing other 5 GHz networks at the same time. confused

I am confused too. I assume you scrolled down the list of networks to see if the 5 GHz bands showed up later further down the list.

Even knowing that the list is in strict alpha order (except for l.c. being at its bottom), I scrolled down it an embarrassing number of times in the vain hope that those networks really were somewhere on it. crazy

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I suspect that playing music to an AirPort Express is an exercise similar to the one in which I"m engaged.

To run AirPlay on a Mac, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be able to connect to its network.

"you must be able to connect to its network" may not be not the best wording. Airplay works fine from my Mac, my iPad, iPhone, and Apple TV to a sound system connected to an AE that has joined the network created by my Netgear WiFi Router. Perhaps a better wording might be you must be connected to the same network?

Good point.

I think the correct wording
  • as respects a situation in which an AE has created its own network is "To run AirPlay, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be connected to it(s network)."
  • and as respects a situation in which an AE has joined another network is "To run AirPlay, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be connected through it to the network it has joined."
Closer?
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#44518 - 05/05/17 06:40 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Even knowing that the list is in strict alpha order (except for l.c. being at its bottom), I scrolled down it an embarrassing number of times in the vain hope that those networks really were somewhere on it. crazy

Sometimes Airport Utility and setting up Airport Express appears a bit flakey. I know that when you reset an Airport device and then set it up from scratch (recommended) the Airport device temporarily creates its own network and the device you are running Airport Utility on has to join that network to complete the setup. This leads me to two questions
  1. Are you resetting the Airport Express to start with (paperclip in the reset hole until the light begins to flash green)
  2. this is off the wall, but when you start the setup process is the device running Airport Express logged onto a 5GHz network? (Admittedly I am grasping at straws here, but…)
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think the correct wording
  • as respects a situation in which an AE has created its own network is "To run AirPlay, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be connected to it(s network)."
  • and as respects a situation in which an AE has joined another network is "To run AirPlay, your stereo must be plugged into your AE and you must be connected through it to the network it has joined."
Closer?

To me that sounds pretty close, but if we were in a design meeting working on the documentation, I would probably argue your first scenario is superfluous. That is the kind of description that a team of four or five software engineers and tech writers could easily spend an entire day getting to everyone's satisfaction and would still be incomprehensible to anyone who had not been in on the discussion/argument/dustup that wrote it. Of course after all that work the editor, who may or may not fully understand the situation, would step in and rewrite it to the satisfaction of no one on the design team. I have been there and done that more than once. 😲
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#44521 - 05/06/17 12:00 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I know that when you reset an Airport device and then set it up from scratch (recommended) the Airport device temporarily creates its own network and the device you are running Airport Utility on has to join that network to complete the setup. This leads me to two questions
  1. Are you resetting the Airport Express to start with (paperclip in the reset hole until the light begins to flash green)
  2. this is off the wall, but when you start the setup process is the device running Airport Express logged onto a 5GHz network? (Admittedly I am grasping at straws here, but…)

I was making my changes without resetting my AE...just changing my existing configuration, and in that scenario, the 5 GHz FiOS networks didn't appear on the "Join" list regardless of which of the four available bands (n (b/g compatible), n only (2.4 GHz), n (a compatible), n only (5 GHz)) was my starting point.

I also tried a factory reset, but I suspect that my refurbished AE wasn't 100% refurbished, because even though the light flashed as it should have, my settings were intact afterwards. (I now remember having tried a factory reset once before with the same wonky results.)

But my 5 GHz FiOS network (not all of them) appeared on the join list afterwards along with my 2.4 GHz FiOS network.

So in the end, my position has improved, but something's still going on, and now I must suspect that my AE is at least partly to blame.
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#44525 - 05/06/17 04:08 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I also tried a factory reset, but I suspect that my refurbished AE wasn't 100% refurbished, because even though the light flashed as it should have, my settings were intact afterwards. (I now remember having tried a factory reset once before with the same wonky results.)

But my 5 GHz FiOS network (not all of them) appeared on the join list afterwards along with my 2.4 GHz FiOS network.


Any time I have changed the network configuration of an Airport device I started with a full reset. As to the reset process itself,
  1. hold the reset button for ten seconds or more after the light starts flashing green.
  2. If Airport Utility is running when the reset is performed quit Airport Utility
  3. Restart Airport Utility and the device being reset should not appear among the devices on the network
  4. After several seconds a banner in the upper left quadrant of the Airport Utility screen labeled "Other WiFi Devices" becomes solid (not greyed out)
  5. click on the "Other WiFi Devices" banner and the reset Airport device should appear with a network name like Apple Network 883124
  6. click on that device and proceed to set it up from there by giving it a name and a password
  7. click on the Wireless tab and select the desired operating mode (join, extend, create)
    • If you selected Create you will need to name the network and fill in the blanks that appear depending on the selected security level
    • If you selected Join you will be presented with a list of the available networks NOTE: You will be presented with a list of networks on both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands if and ONLY if this the Airport device has been reset and you have connected to it in Airport Utility via the Apple Network NNNNNNN
    • If you Create or Extend a network you will have the option to create a Guest Network that has access only to the internet.
  8. Regardless of the Wireless mode you have the option of enabling Airplay on the device.
FWIW Airport devices are not infallible — particularly some of the early Time Capsules. I have a first generation Time Capsule and the WiFi section went wonky and unreliable. It is now connected to my network via Ethernet with WiFi disabled and the drive is performing a yeoman's work as Network Attached Storage and the additional Ethernet ports in turn provide connectivity for a variety of sensor devices feeding into the LAN and Internet.
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#44526 - 05/06/17 11:13 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Any time I have changed the network configuration of an Airport device I started with a full reset.

There are three ways to reset an AirPort base station; you've described (albeit not quite correctly) a Hard reset, and beyond that there's a Factory Default reset. (There's also a n/a Soft reset.)

So I followed Apple's instructions in an attempt to get back to square one, but both Hard and Factory Default resets failed: after having undergone both procedures, my AirPort Express was still configured as it had been when I began.

The lessons to be learned are that my "refurbished" base station apparently isn't as refurbished as it was made out to be, and, sadly, that the reliability of everything I've reported thus-far is questionable. frown

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
As to the reset process itself,
  1. If you selected Join you will be presented with a list of the available networks NOTE: You will be presented with a list of networks on both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands if and ONLY if this the Airport device has been reset and you have connected to it in Airport Utility via the Apple Network NNNNNNN

My AE's being faulty may make this moot, but doesn't that fly in the face of my having seen both 2.4 and 5 GHz networks (albeit not all the available 5 GHz ones) in a "Join" pane without having done any sort of reset?

Note: Apple sells refurbished AirPort Express base stations for $50, but now that I've determined that my first refurb has apparently been faulty since day one, I'm not at all thrilled by the thought of buying a second one...even at a $50 saving.
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#44534 - 05/08/17 12:22 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Lest we forget where this all began...

So I finally got my AirPort Express to join my 2.4 GHz FiOS network, and as you said it should, AirPlay worked, but if I used the 2.4 GHz band for Internet at the same time, playback was choppy and subject to drop-outs; using the 2.4 GHz network for AirPlay and the 5 GHz network for Internet worked fine.

Unfortunately, though, no matter what I tried, including deleting and reinstalling drivers, I couldn't get the Bonjour printer to print..."Connection Error", regardless of which network I was using for Internet, and despite the fact that I deleted the USB printer before installation, and all settings looked correct.

Unless you've got any ideas, I"m throwing in the towel, because at this point my problem could be with my base station. frown

Many thanks for all your help. (At the very least, I learned a bunch - well, a little, anyhow - about networking.)
_________________________
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#44538 - 05/08/17 10:08 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
So I finally got my AirPort Express to join my 2.4 GHz FiOS network, and as you said it should, AirPlay worked, but if I used the 2.4 GHz band for Internet at the same time, playback was choppy and subject to drop-outs; using the 2.4 GHz network for AirPlay and the 5 GHz network for Internet worked fine.

The 2.4GHz bands have a 20MHz bandwidth compared to the 5GHz bandwidth of 80MHz. You can get smooth playback on 2.4GHz, but you have to set a significantly larger buffer size on the receiving end.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Unfortunately, though, no matter what I tried, including deleting and reinstalling drivers, I couldn't get the Bonjour printer to print..."Connection Error", regardless of which network I was using for Internet, and despite the fact that I deleted the USB printer before installation, and all settings looked correct.

Unless you've got any ideas, I"m throwing in the towel, because at this point my problem could be with my base station. frown

I recently had that error connecting to a shared Dymo Label printer on my Mac mini server. confused After many unsuccessful attempts the problem was finally resolved by replacing the printer with a similar Dymo Label printer, switching the connection from the Mac mini server to an unused Airport Express; and rewiring and reconnecting all 22 of the electronics in the computer cabinet. In fact I solved my final networking problem this morning by moving a network repeater from one outlet to another six feet away on the same wall. I am convinced that in spite of all our technical knowledge there is still an element of ART to creating a good WiFi network. I know this, if I ever redo my network again it will be with some form of mesh routing — probably Orbi or Plume.
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#44540 - 05/08/17 11:53 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I recently had that error connecting to a shared Dymo Label printer on my Mac mini server. confused After many unsuccessful attempts the problem was finally resolved by replacing the printer with a similar Dymo Label printer, switching the connection from the Mac mini server to an unused Airport Express; and rewiring and reconnecting all 22 of the electronics in the computer cabinet. In fact I solved my final networking problem this morning by moving a network repeater from one outlet to another six feet away on the same wall. I am convinced that in spite of all our technical knowledge there is still an element of ART to creating a good WiFi network. I know this, if I ever redo my network again it will be with some form of mesh routing — probably Orbi or Plume.

Are you serious? All that just to correct the Dymo problem? (How'd you even figure it out?)

"Mesh routing" sounds like a wonderful idea with networks as complicated as yours sounds.

Originally Posted By: Mesh networking - Wikipedia
A fully mesh network is where each node is connected to every other node in the network.
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#44542 - 05/09/17 07:19 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
My wife uses the Dymo label printer for a lot of tasks, not just labels per se and when it suddenly quit working… need I say any more. Reworking the electronics cabinet was a task I had been putting off and adding one more device, an AE, in such a small space elevated it from should do itito get it done — NOW!!!. As I already had another Dymo printer and an Epson printer networked via Airport Express units, switching the failed Dymo to an AE that was sitting in a drawer unused seemed a logical thing to try. Moving the repeater had nothing to do with the Dymo problem, it was to fix a problem with a WiFi controlled lamp, that would pair and then later disappear from the network.

During all of this I did a lot of research on Mesh routing and there are several variations on how to achieve it. If you have a large or complex house and your base WiFi router cannot reach all areas there are two options to "fix" the situation.
  • Add an "extender" that picks up the base station signal and creates new networks for the remote areas of the house. This is what I have done so in my house I have XXXX-5GHz, XXX-2.4GHz, created by the base router and XXX-5GHz-Ext, XXX-2.4GHz created by the network Extender. As we move through the house our iPhones and iPads switch between the four networks depending on which has the strongest signal at that specifics location in the house. Because the computers, Apple TVs, door locks/openers, thermostats, light switches, etc. are fixed locations they stay on a selected network.
  • With a "Mesh" router there would be only one network and that network would appear on both the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands. The band a particular device connects to is determined by the router. There are almost as many ways this is physically implemented as there are Mesh network routers. For Example:
    • The Netgear Orbi has a base and one or more Extenders, traffic between the units and network control is via a dedicated 5GHz network
    • The Plume system has small (think nightlight sized) relatively inexpensive units plugged into an outlet in every room of the house. Routing between the units is configured via an internet.
  • In either case the band is invisible to the user
  • There are pros and cons to conventional and mesh network routing but in the end the big difference is where management control is located. With conventional Router and Extender networks the network manager retains control over the configuration and traffic, with Mesh routing that control resides in the router's firmware (or in Plume's case the internet based configuration utility.
Suffice it to say my next network — if there is one — will be Mesh and unless something new comes along either Orbi or Plume.
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#44558 - 05/09/17 11:04 PM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I looked into Orbi and Plume, and I both love the concept and hope that I never need to take advantage of it. (I couldn't go the Plume route...haven't got enough outlets.)
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#44906 - 06/05/17 08:30 AM Re: Printer recommendations [Re: deniro]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
I have a Brother HL-2230 B&W laser printer. It's been great. I have had a couple of jams but was easily fixed. What I want to pass on if you haven't already purchased a printer is that when it says you are low on toner, other than shaking the toner cartridge back and forth to even it out, there is a little formula that keeps it printing for hundreds of extra pages. Here goes:

Resetting Brother Toner Cartridge
1. Turn off printer
2. Open front cover
3. Hold “go” button and turn printer on
4. Let go of “go” button then press twice
5. Pause and then press 5 x for standard toner and 6 times for high yield toner
6. Close front of printer
7. If it says “printer is not connected”, turn printer off then on again.

I've had to do it a couple of times but it always works for tons more copies until, of course, it is empty. That hasn't happened yet. I bought it in Sept. 2014 and I am only on my second cartridge. I didn't know that trick with the first cartridge. I don't use it a lot like in an office but average more than one copy a day.

Originally Posted By: deniro
I finally have to admit to myself that my HP 812 deskjet has died. One of the OS X updates killed the drivers along time ago (a long...time ago) and it's never been the same since.

So I'm looking for some printer recommendations. I am considering a B&W laser, though I only print not even a page/day. Price range under $300. Color not needed. Just something reliable. I need drivers that support OS 10.4.11

Has Brother been more reliable than HP on the Mac in recent years ?



Edited by plantsower (06/05/17 08:31 AM)
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