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To Retina or not, this is the question
#44885 06/04/17 10:30 PM
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I am starting a new thread for myself as my old one is getting longer and longer. In my journey to buy a MBP, I have only been looking at the retina macs, refurbished through Apple certified retailers, including Apple. The SSD is kind of exciting because it's so fast plus a faster processor than what I have, (though not by much) when looking at the March 2015 models.

I just read where the Retina's are very locked down and hard to fix on one's own. After the warranty wears out, it can cost a lot to get batteries, etc.

What are the pros and cons of getting a retina mac vs a refurbished 500GB HD mac (hopefully 2015 or so) for someone like me who only does email, shopping, connects to my Smart TV to watch stuff (though rarely), and a lot of researching of stuff? No gaming. Nothing fancy. Hope you see this, Artie. smile I don't want to go back to a 2012 model, though, if I can help it. I feel like I am overthinking this, but it's a lot of money for me to make a mistake.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44886 06/04/17 10:52 PM
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I'm onto it, Rita. smile

The problem with non-Retina MBPs is that the one you've now got was the last one. Here is Mactracker's compilation of MBPs released from 2012 to date.

Your good idea is dead in the water unless you want to go for a MacBook Air.

(By the way, clicking on the screenshot enlarges it considerably...same with the SuperDuper! shot I posted in your other thread.)

Last edited by artie505; 06/04/17 11:03 PM.

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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
artie505 #44887 06/04/17 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm onto it, Rita. smile

The problem with non-Retina MBPs is that you've got to go all the way back to the machine you've now got to find one. Here is Mactracker's compilation of MBPs since your 2012 model was released.

Your good idea is dead in the water unless you want to go for a MacBook Air.

(By the way, clicking on the screenshot enlarges it considerably...same with the SuperDuper! shot I posted in your other thread.)


Nope, don't want a MBA. Is it true what I read about retina macs? It's scary.

I tried enlarging it by using the command and plus sign. I'll try your way next time.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44889 06/04/17 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: plantsower
Originally Posted By: artie505
Your good idea is dead in the water unless you want to go for a MacBook Air.

(By the way, clicking on the screenshot enlarges it considerably...same with the SuperDuper! shot I posted in your other thread.)


Nope, don't want a MBA. Is it true what I read about retina macs? It's scary.

I tried enlarging it by using the command and plus sign. I'll try your way next time.

I've never looked into it, but I don't see why Retina MBPs, in particular, should be any more difficult or expensive (the Retina display excepted, I imagine) to repair than other Apple laptops have been. iBooks, MacBooks, and MBPs have never been especially easy to work on...some have been notoriously difficult, and as for cost, unless you're willing to go after-market for parts (if they're even available), it's Apple's way or the highway.

At this point, I'm resigned to buying a fait accompli when I buy a new MBP.

(Yeah, just click on the screenshot without hitting any keys.)


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44890 06/04/17 11:25 PM
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The Retina display is not the culprit in making newer MacBooks more difficult to repair. The difficulty is the result of several factors driven by public demand for more speed, lighter weight, and longer battery life. I don't have any statistics, but the engineering involved would suggest repairs are less likely. The downside is if repairs are needed they will be more difficult and therefore more expensive, or even impossible.

IMHO AppleCare is a requirement not an option


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
joemikeb #44892 06/05/17 12:00 AM
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I wonder if, even considering their micro-miniaturization, the new laptops can be any more difficult to work on than some past ones...even some iMacs have been?

tacit once posted that changing a part had taken about 3 minutes, but getting to it and putting his MBP back together had taken something like 20 minutes each, and those foil-lined iMacs sounded like nightmares.

I imagine that skinny fingers are a Mac tech's most important asset. tongue

I'd like to hear V1's take on this.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
artie505 #44893 06/05/17 12:45 AM
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I'm starting to feel like a victim!!

Originally Posted By: artie505
I wonder if, even considering their micro-miniaturization, the new laptops can be any more difficult to work on than some past ones...even some iMacs have been?

tacit once posted that changing a part had take about 3 minutes, but getting to it and putting his machine back together had taken something like 20 minutes each, and those foil-lined iMacs sounded like nightmares.

I imagine that skinny fingers are a Mac tech's most important asset. tongue

I'd like to hear V1's take on this.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44894 06/05/17 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted By: plantsower
I'm starting to feel like a victim!!

I don't think you follow the goings on around here closely enough to know that when joemike said that the end must be near because he and I agree about something he was referring to an ongoing battle we've been engaged in about the direction Apple has taken with MBPs.

He loves the idea of the more compact machines, while I think it's an abomination! (Did I ever link you to this thread?)


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
artie505 #44895 06/05/17 03:33 AM
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No, you never sent me the thread but I just read it now. I am on team Artie.Especially with the new Macs leaving out all the inlines and then selling adaptors. That just makes me mad. I was shocked to see that the Ethernet option is gone, too. That was the only way I could get the hardware test to work. Now I will have to buy an adaptor to do that should the need arise. And that's why I am feeling like a victim. I know we can build our own macs but at what price? I never looked at it that closely. Anyway I am going for cheap with a MBP I guess, around 2015. The Pro seems like the best way to go even though the MacBooks and Macbook Airs are cheaper.

That guy at lacomputercompany.com got back to me to say this:

"HI Rita

The model you are going to get is the Discontinued model from Apple. its ML840LL/A, that got discontinued last year with 256GB Flash

The MF839LL/A is still Current model from Apple and that is why the customer bought it and then returned it the next day. Look at link and scroll to the bottom you will see the MF839Ll/A still current on Apple stores and website and you can also get it with 256GB Flash like the one are getting from the Apple site CTO config.

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MF839LL/A&step=config

We have the MF840 256GB flash in Refurbished for $1249.00 and you can get a 1 year warranty for $129.00. link below

https://www.lacomputercompany.com/refurb...256-detail.html

I do not understand what you friend is saying about the touch bar did not come out till 2016, both the models are current right now."

Any comments, Artie? I don't know if he cleared things up or is talking out his, er...nose.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I'm starting to feel like a victim!!

I don't think you follow the goings on around here closely enough to know that when joemike said that the end must be near because he and I agree about something he was referring to an ongoing battle we've been engaged in about the direction Apple has taken with MBPs.

He loves the idea of the more compact machines, while I think it's an abomination! (Did I ever link you to this thread?)


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44898 06/05/17 05:39 AM
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The issue is that the Retina MacBooks are made to be incredibly thin and light, because that's what the market demands. To get the size and weight down, Apple has started doing things like making the RAM soldered on--there are no RAM slots (just getting rid of the RAM slots allowed Apple to make the computer about 40% thinner).

That means you can never add more RAM after you buy it. Buy it with as much RAM as you can get!

Same with hard drives: the so-called "hard drives" are way (way way way) faster than normal SATA drives, and also way smaller, but they use a custom connector--you can not put a "normal" laptop hard drive in there. (They're about 1/4 the size of a normal hard drive and less than half the weight, and the custom connecter is about triple the speed of a normal hard drive connector, but the price you pay for that small size and high speed is you can't just go to Amazon, buy a standard laptop hard drive, and put it in.)

Apple is doing this because as much as people theoretically say they want to be able to fix or upgrade their own computers, the reality is, almost nobody ever does. If you give people a choice between a laptop that is small and light and fast but can't be fixed at home, and a laptop that is bigger, heavier, and slower but that can be fixed at home, nearly everyone buys the smaller, lighter, faster one. For better or for worse, that's the economic reality on the ground.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
tacit #44902 06/05/17 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: tacit
The issue is that the Retina MacBooks are made to be incredibly thin and light, because that's what the market demands. To get the size and weight down, Apple has started doing things like making the RAM soldered on--there are no RAM slots (just getting rid of the RAM slots allowed Apple to make the computer about 40% thinner).

That means you can never add more RAM after you buy it. Buy it with as much RAM as you can get!

Same with hard drives: the so-called "hard drives" are way (way way way) faster than normal SATA drives, and also way smaller, but they use a custom connector--you can not put a "normal" laptop hard drive in there. (They're about 1/4 the size of a normal hard drive and less than half the weight, and the custom connecter is about triple the speed of a normal hard drive connector, but the price you pay for that small size and high speed is you can't just go to Amazon, buy a standard laptop hard drive, and put it in.)

Apple is doing this because as much as people theoretically say they want to be able to fix or upgrade their own computers, the reality is, almost nobody ever does. If you give people a choice between a laptop that is small and light and fast but can't be fixed at home, and a laptop that is bigger, heavier, and slower but that can be fixed at home, nearly everyone buys the smaller, lighter, faster one. For better or for worse, that's the economic reality on the ground.


Some of the Retina macs say you can upgrade RAM to 16 gb. So, does that mean you have to do it before you buy it? I guess i am in the minority, I'd rather have one I can tinker with. I don't know much but I can change a battery and probably upgrade a regular hard drive just from watching youtube videos. I just wish we had a choice with the newer macs and not having them all go the same way. They say it's what people want but nobody ever asked me. Why doesn't apple poll all their known customers and find out what people really want and then go from there?


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44903 06/05/17 02:56 PM
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AFAK, only the 27" Retina iMacs have user-upgradeable RAM. You can do it at any time. When I bought mine, it came with 8 GB of Apple RAM. I bought another 8 GB from Other World Computing and installed it before starting the new iMac for the first time.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
jchuzi #44905 06/05/17 03:08 PM
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That's what I thought. I would think Tacit would know that. He's way more techie than I. Thanks, Jon.

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
AFAK, only the 27" Retina iMacs have user-upgradeable RAM. You can do it at any time. When I bought mine, it came with 8 GB of Apple RAM. I bought another 8 GB from Other World Computing and installed it before starting the new iMac for the first time.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44909 06/05/17 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: plantsower
That's what I thought. I would think Tacit would know that. He's way more techie than I. Thanks, Jon.

Remember: tacit's response was directed at Retina MacBooks which was your primary interest — not iMacs.
(Compare Apples to Apples, so to speak.)

Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
grelber #44913 06/05/17 06:41 PM
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Oh, yeah, I misread it. frown But the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: plantsower
That's what I thought. I would think Tacit would know that. He's way more techie than I. Thanks, Jon.

Remember: tacit's response was directed at Retina MacBooks which was your primary interest — not iMacs.
(Compare Apples to Apples, so to speak.)


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44915 06/05/17 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: plantsower
...the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

On the spot, only, Rita.

A MBP is a done deal once it's been assembled.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
artie505 #44916 06/05/17 08:58 PM
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Well, Fudge! I have 4 gb ram now so 8 gb is probably enough what what I am willing to spend. Did you see that excerpt from the email I sent you from LA computer company? I can't remember if I sent it after you went to bed or not. Probably not since you're a night owl.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Oh, yeah, I misread it. frown But the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

On the spot, only, Rita.

A MBP is a done deal once it's been assembled.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44917 06/05/17 09:01 PM
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I saw it, but it was too much for me to deal with at the moment; I'll respond later.

Based on your description of how you use your MBP, you're probably right on the mark with 8 GB RAM.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
artie505 #44918 06/05/17 09:03 PM
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OK, thank you.


Originally Posted By: artie505
I saw it, but it was too much for me to deal with at the moment; I'll respond later.

Based on your description of how you use your MBP, you're probably right on the mark with 8 GB RAM.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44921 06/06/17 12:41 AM
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FYI, I checked the new MacBook Pro offerings following today's WWDC Keynote and if there are memory options they are Configurable for more memory. That is Apple speak for you get only what you order from the factory — the memory is not upgradable. By-the-way that is true for all the new iMacs as well, including the workstation class iMac Pro with up to 18 (count 'em eighteen) processor cores. No word on the Mac Pro (if it has not been supplanted by the iMac Pro) or the lowly Mac mini.

It is beginning t look as if my next Mac upgrade will be at least $1,000 to $2,500 more than my last one. 😫😢👎


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
joemikeb #44923 06/06/17 12:48 AM
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And I say "shame on Apple." I will go back in time and get a notebook that still has most of the ports included even though the fire wire and ethernet ports aren't there. I still can't upgrade my RAM but 8 is enough! Get it? Wow, that was unintended.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
FYI, I checked the new MacBook Pro offerings following today's WWDC Keynote and if there are memory options they are Configurable for more memory. That is Apple speak for you get only what you order from the factory — the memory is not upgradable. By-the-way that is true for all the new iMacs as well, including the workstation class iMac Pro with up to 18 (count 'em eighteen) processor cores. No word on the Mac Pro (if it has not been supplanted by the iMac Pro) or the lowly Mac mini.

It is beginning t look as if my next Mac upgrade will be at least $1,000 to $2,500 more than my last one. 😫😢👎


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44926 06/06/17 03:32 AM
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Look, I found this. Upgrading SSD HD
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Well, Fudge! I have 4 gb ram now so 8 gb is probably enough what what I am willing to spend. Did you see that excerpt from the email I sent you from LA computer company? I can't remember if I sent it after you went to bed or not. Probably not since you're a night owl.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Oh, yeah, I misread it. frown But the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

On the spot, only, Rita.

A MBP is a done deal once it's been assembled.


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44927 06/06/17 06:00 AM
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Bad link, Rita! frown


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Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
plantsower #44929 06/06/17 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: plantsower
Oh, yeah, I misread it. frown But the laptops do say can be upgraded to higher RAM, so I still want to know if you need to upgrade while ordering or can do it after.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: plantsower
That's what I thought. I would think Tacit would know that. He's way more techie than I. Thanks, Jon.

Remember: tacit's response was directed at Retina MacBooks which was your primary interest — not iMacs.
(Compare Apples to Apples, so to speak.)

Going back a bit in time to clarify, I don't know why there was any confusion, because tacit very clearly said in post #44898:

Quote:
The issue is that the Retina MacBooks are made to be incredibly thin and light, because that's what the market demands. To get the size and weight down, Apple has started doing things like making the RAM soldered on--there are no RAM slots (just getting rid of the RAM slots allowed Apple to make the computer about 40% thinner).

That means you can never add more RAM after you buy it. Buy it with as much RAM as you can get! (Emphasis added)

And Jon's "AFA[I]K, only the 27" Retina iMacs have user-upgradeable RAM." obliquely seconded the motion.

I wonder if Apple's market research respondents who preferred thinner and lighter fully understood its implications on the size of the resultant total package?

And I suspect that their research determined that the feelings of current Mac owners are inconsequential, because we ain't about to switch. frown


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: To Retina or not, this is the question
joemikeb #44930 06/06/17 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
FYI, I checked the new MacBook Pro offerings following today's WWDC Keynote and if there are memory options they are Configurable for more memory. That is Apple speak for you get only what you order from the factory — the memory is not upgradable. By-the-way that is true for all the new iMacs as well, including the workstation class iMac Pro with up to 18 (count 'em eighteen) processor cores. No word on the Mac Pro (if it has not been supplanted by the iMac Pro) or the lowly Mac mini.

It is beginning t look as if my next Mac upgrade will be at least $1,000 to $2,500 more than my last one. 😫😢👎

$1,000 to $2,500 is an awfully big range; may I ask what it encompasses?

(Since the new models are already listed, I imagine that the October 2016 models will turn up at job-lot prices all over the Internet.)


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