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#43906 - 03/09/17 01:20 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
It looks as though Douglas had the problem solved way back in post #43874 - although, to be honest, this is not as clearly stated as it could have been. Hence, the several posts which followed (i.e. describing the problem in further detail even after it have been resolved added to the confusion, I think).

I'm not sure how much more clearly than

Quote:
I booted into my clone on an external HD. Navigated back to the file, moved it too the Trash and emptied the Trash and it was gone.

Had the same problem with that widget on my clone, it would not empty and kept getting the same 'file in use' message. Rebooted into my internal HD, and then deleted the widget on my clone.

Douglas could have put it.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43908 - 03/09/17 02:18 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Perhaps it is just me, but I was confused as to why the postings continued AFTER the problem had been fixed . . . so I (wrongfully) assumed the problem was not yet resolved.

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#43911 - 03/09/17 03:17 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
Perhaps it is just me, but I was confused as to why the postings continued AFTER the problem had been fixed . . . so I (wrongfully) assumed the problem was not yet resolved.

You're not alone; I, too, was confused by the posts that followed Douglas's posting the fix.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43912 - 03/09/17 03:19 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
RE: " . . . get the same results you can get within the OS . . . "

----------------------------
To each his own.

As an example: Apple has done away with SECURE DELETE for Trash. I imagine there is some work-around within the OS using Terminal . . . BUT "Permanent Eraser" makes it so much simpler. It was easy to locate on Google, simple to download and install, and easy to use. Ta Da!

Personally, I like researching third-party apps. In the process, I often stumble across something else I wouldn't have otherwise found - or even thought to look for. I use Pogue's series of books if I wish to dig deeper into the OS itself . . . or post an inquiry on FineTunedMac.

smile


* early 2011 MBPro with Sierra (no SSD or Fusion Drive)


Edited by MG2009 (03/09/17 03:21 PM)
Edit Reason: added point of reference

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#43938 - 03/11/17 12:04 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
Apple has done away with SECURE DELETE for Trash. I imagine there is some work-around within the OS using Terminal . . . BUT "Permanent Eraser" makes it so much simpler. It was easy to locate on Google, simple to download and install, and easy to use. Ta Da!

Personally, I like researching third-party apps. In the process, I often stumble across something else I wouldn't have otherwise found - or even thought to look for.

I've got no issue with third party apps; I cruise MacUpdate every day and bookmark items, including trash apps (I'd have recommended Trash It!, which has a longstanding sterling reputation.), that sound potentially useful to either me or others, but I never DEFAULT to a third party app, rather I try to work within my OS until I've established either that it can't deal with the problem or that it can, but in a more cumbersome manner than I care to deal with.

As interested as I am in keeping up with third party software, I'm more interested in avoiding it in favor of my OS, and trash, which has always been a particularly fascinating and frustrating aspect of OS X/macOS invariably sucks me in. (There's a quick, easy secure delete via Terminal option which I'd opt for rather than installing yet another app, but admittedly, not everyone is comfortable in Terminal.)

Bottom line for me remains I'd rather own my deuced Mac(hina) than allow it to own me. wink laugh
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43944 - 03/11/17 08:04 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
To each his own.


FWIW: Whether using Terminal or a 3rd party app, I have never felt "owned" by my Mac. I am not even entirely sure what that means . . . but, regardless, I am not losing any sleep over it.

smile

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#43946 - 03/11/17 09:13 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: MG2009
RE: As an example: Apple has done away with SECURE DELETE for Trash. I imagine there is some work-around within the OS using Terminal . . . BUT "Permanent Eraser" makes it so much simpler. It was easy to locate on Google, simple to download and install, and easy to use. Ta Da!

SSD drives and the SSD component of Fusion drives are capable of only a finite number of write operations. Because secure delete, whether provided by Apple or a third party app works by the simple expedient overwriting the erased data on the media several times it shortens the lifespan of the SSD media. (That is the same reason third party disk utilities caution against optimizing SSD or Fusion drives.) Additionally Apple's new APFS file system, already fully implemented in iOS 10.3, has features that make secure erase and volume/file optimization essentially irrelevant and pointless.

Even though your MBP, and many others, still has rotating rust media, Apple is always building for the next generation of devices it is reasonable for them to remove features from the OS that are dangerous or ill advised in the current and future hardware generations.
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#43948 - 03/11/17 09:42 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: joemikeb]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Thanks for the added info, joemikeb.

I do only the minimal stuff on my MBPro - emails and google searches. Occasional YouTube and Skype. Dictionary and Calculator.

I do not use it for DVDs (it has the slot drive) OR for playing music (don't even know how to use all the features iTunes has to offer). No photoshop or fancy film editing. No video games. Pretty basic usage.

So . . . I will continue along until my "old rust bucket" gives up the ghost or it can no longer handle the latest OSX updates - whichever comes first. (hehehe)
_________________________
Many thanks,
MG2009

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#43951 - 03/11/17 11:48 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: MG2009
So . . . I will continue along until my "old rust bucket" gives up the ghost or it can no longer handle the latest OSX updates - whichever comes first. (hehehe)

The odds are no longer being able to handle the latest updates will get you long before the "old rust bucket" gives up the ghost. MacOS support typically only goes back four years or five at most.

By the way, an iPad Pro would do everything you described, less costly, and is arguably easier and less complex to manage.
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#43952 - 03/11/17 12:34 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Even though your MBP, and many others, still has rotating rust media, Apple is always building for the next generation of devices it is reasonable for them to remove features from the OS that are dangerous or ill advised in the current and future hardware generations.

I'd have guessed that OS X/macOS would treat secure erase similarly to the way (as we recently discussed in another thread) it's treated disc drives and trackpads, i.e. intuitively, wherein it knows what you're running and gives you the applicable options.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43953 - 03/11/17 01:55 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
When I updated to SIERRA, I "lost" the option of SECURE ERASE. That is to say:

1. neither with the tab(s) that use to appear when a window was opened to view TRASH contents,

2. nor using the FINDER's "drop down" menu.

Since I had not changed the HD which came with the 2011 MBPro, there was no intuitive action on Sierra's part to recognize that the machine did not have a SSD or Fusion Drive - but removed the Secure Delete option for Trash anyway even though the "old" (original) HD was still in place.

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#43954 - 03/11/17 02:01 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: joemikeb]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Thanks for the info.

I also already have a iPad Pro (bought new in October 2016) . . . for as long as it can serve me, that is.

smirk

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#43955 - 03/11/17 02:07 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: joemikeb]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
RE: MacOS support typically only goes back four years or five at most.


-----------------------------------------------------------

I just hit the 6-year mark, so fingers and toes are crossed.


P.S. I still have the G5 PPC desktop from 2006. Nobody wants it, I imagine. I think the last OSX it could use was Mountain Lion. Roar!

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#43956 - 03/11/17 02:37 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
When I updated to SIERRA, I "lost" the option of SECURE ERASE. That is to say:

1. neither with the tab(s) that use to appear when a window was opened to view TRASH contents,

2. nor using the FINDER's "drop down" menu.

Since I had not changed the HD which came with the 2011 MBPro, there was no intuitive action on Sierra's part to recognize that the machine did not have a SSD or Fusion Drive - but removed the Secure Delete option for Trash anyway even though the "old" (original) HD was still in place.

Nor, I guess, in /Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility > Erase.

I realize that that's what happened, and I remain surprised by it, because secure erase is a very desirable feature for the many people who are still running spinning rust.

Edit: There must be a way to secure erase a HDD without booting into an earlier OS than Sierra; would booting into Sierra volume 2 and running
Code:
sudo rm -rf -P /Sierra \volume \1
turn the trick? (Note: rm -P is limited to three overwrites.)

Hmmm.. Both What to do before selling or giving away your Mac - Apple Support - 12/2016 and How to reinstall macOS - Apple Support - 1/2017, which were released after Sierra, discuss erasing a disk via Internet Recovery, and Disk Utility for Mac: Erase a volume using Disk Utility (released two days after Sierra) notes

Quote:
Note: With a solid-state drive (SSD), secure erase options are not available in Disk Utility. For more security, consider turning on FileVault encryption when you start using your SSD drive.

which implies that secure erase is available in Disk Utility with a HDD.

VERY confused !

Is the secure erase option that doesn't exist within macOS 10.12 present in its recovery partition?

Can anybody clarify?

Thanks!


Edited by artie505 (03/11/17 03:47 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43957 - 03/11/17 02:55 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
RE: MacOS support typically only goes back four years or five at most.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I just hit the 6-year mark, so fingers and toes are crossed.

As are mine!

This is interesting: my daughter's 13", Early 2008 MacBook (purchased in August 2008) originally shipped with OS X 10.5.2 and maxed out at 10.7.5, while my 13", Early 2009 MacBook (purchased in February 2009, only 6 months later) originally shipped with 10.5.6 and maxed out at 10.11.6. Wow, that's an enormous difference!

I just upgraded the 2008 Macbook to a 13", Mid 2012 MacBook Pro (the one that was just discontinued in October 2016), because it was a phenomenal value, but I'm now scratching my head wondering just how long Apple's going to support it with macOS upgrades.

Oh, well... Worst case scenario is I'll have to make amends for shortsightedness by buying her a new Mac, which I'll do with a sad smile , before the 2012 is dead.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43958 - 03/11/17 03:58 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
RE: " . . . which implies that secure erase is available in Disk Utility with a HDD."

-----------------------------------

As best as I can tell, SECURE ERASE still exists in DISK UTILITY . . . but only for external thumb and hard drives.

The "erase" tab is greyed-out in DU in regard to the internal HDD.

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#43959 - 03/11/17 04:12 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
RE: " . . . which implies that secure erase is available in Disk Utility with a HDD."

-----------------------------------

As best as I can tell, SECURE ERASE still exists in DISK UTILITY . . . but only for external thumb and hard drives.

The "erase" tab is greyed-out in DU in regard to the internal HDD.

Careful! Are you looking at the erase tab as respects the drive/volume into which you're booted? That will always be greyed out.

Interesting that secure erase exists for thumb drives; shouldn't they be subject to the same limitations as SSDs?

I just booted into my recovery partition, and secure erase wasn't an option, either because I'm running an SSD or because I've failed to see through the murky Apple docs to which I linked.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43960 - 03/11/17 04:22 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Re: ". . . the erase tab as respects the drive/volume into which you're booted? That will always be greyed out."

-------------------------------


That is correct.

I do not have a Recovery Partition on the MBPro HD, so cannot speak to that.

HOWEVER, I made a spare/backup "Install Thumb Drive" of Sierra from the download before installing Sierra on the MBPro. When I reboot in Recovery Mode using the thumb drive, the DU gives the option to erase/secure erase anything that is mounted - internal and external - including the originally installed HD never removed from my MBPro.

Hope that helps.


P.S. This is getting a bit away from the original WIDGET question. Should a new thread be started? Or simply end this sideline at this point?

blush
_________________________
Many thanks,
MG2009

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#43961 - 03/11/17 04:36 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MG2009
I do not have a Recovery Partition on the MBPro HD, so cannot speak to that.

HOWEVER, I made a spare/backup "Install Thumb Drive" of Sierra from the download before installing Sierra on the MBPro. When I reboot in Recovery Mode with the thumb drive, the DU gives the option to erase/secure erase anything that is mounted - internal and external - including the originally installed HD never removed from my MBPro.

P.S. This is getting a bit away from the original WIDGET question. Should a new thread be started? Or simply end this sideline at this point?

If you're running Sierra you've got a recovery partition, but it doesn't show in an option boot; you've got to do a command-R boot to reach it, and I imagine it will allow a secure erase if your thumb drive does.

It sounds like your recovery partition is recognizing that you're running a HDD rather than a SSD.

(Maybe the Mods can detach the last bunch of posts that pertain to this matter and start a new thread with them.)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43962 - 03/11/17 04:49 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
RE: " . . . If you're running Sierra you've got a recovery partition."


---------------------------------


Just checked. The RECOVERY PARTITION is there. I've always used the thumb drive if/when needed, so - to be honest - never went looking for the RP on the HD (and just assumed it wasn't there).

And, yes, the RP has all the same erase options as using the thumb drive DU.
_________________________
Many thanks,
MG2009

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#43963 - 03/11/17 04:55 PM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
While we have gone astray, we may have answered the "secure erase" question at least as respects entire drives, if not as respects partial contents.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43967 - 03/12/17 05:10 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: MG2009]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: MG2009
As best as I can tell, SECURE ERASE still exists in DISK UTILITY . . . but only for external thumb and hard drives.

Secure erase of a thumb drive will reduce its lifespan but with externally connected drives MacOS sees only the logical structure of the drive and has no way of knowing what the physical media is. A thumb drive looks like rotating rust and vice-versa.
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#43978 - 03/15/17 01:07 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Disk Utility > Get Info on both my thumb drive and SSD external shows "Solid State: No".

I wonder why it makes a commitment?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#43979 - 03/15/17 04:42 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
My "Get Info" does not indicate the type of HD on the Mac . . . only that it is formatted as "OS Extended (journaled) and its GB size.

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#43981 - 03/15/17 06:10 AM Re: Delete Widget [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Disk Utility > Get Info on both my thumb drive and SSD external shows "Solid State: No".

I wonder why it makes a commitment?

You did not say how your external drives are attached, but the type of data required for Disk Utility to determine the drive type is not provided in most of the bus standards, certainly not in USB or Firewire. (That is why SMART values cannot be determined for external drives.) I can only guess at why Disk Utility makes a "commitment" is this is a situation that is not provided for in the Disk Utility code.

There are two plausible reasons that this situation is not provided for...
  1. The least likely reason being an oversite in the code design
  2. The more likely reason, there is no reasonable way to determine the specific situation
In either case the report is erroneous and you might wish to submit Feedback to Apple.

NOTE: I have reported this through the beta problem reporting system as well.

AN ASIDE: I had preciously reported a problem in iOS through the beta problem reporting app, and yesterday I got an email asking me if I had tested the problem since installing the iOS 10.3 beta 5 and to report back whether or not it was fixed. Out of the 100+ reports I have submitted that is the third I have had feedback on, but it is nice knowing they really do listen.


Edited by joemikeb (03/15/17 06:35 AM)
Edit Reason: Note and Aside
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