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#4170 - 09/21/09 06:56 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: tacit]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Quote:
If I stop the activity in your brain--for example, with an anaesthetic drug--I stop those dreams.


This is not true, actually:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL06020420070220
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
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#4179 - 09/22/09 12:43 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> and i enjoy it when folks like Jon and Artie make jokes [....]

I posted a joke?
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#4180 - 09/22/09 12:49 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: roger]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Roger,

I do not think your post will be helpful to FineTunedMac members who are anxious to either die or live forever.

But since this is the Lounge, I will not click "Notify." grin
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#4181 - 09/22/09 01:14 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> I think that people always fought death.

Not like they do today, I think; fighting death used to go hand and hand with respect for a more realistic view of life than many, if not most, Americans have today.

> There seems to be an attitude that, if a patient dies, the doctor must be incompetent.

That's not an attitude... It's a legal doctrine! shocked frown
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#4186 - 09/22/09 03:38 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: artie505
I do not think your post will be helpful to FineTunedMac members who are anxious to either die or live forever.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I intend to live forever or die trying. grin
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#4188 - 09/22/09 05:07 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: ryck]
sandbox Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Water World
> > There seems to be an attitude that, if a patient dies, the doctor must be incompetent.<<

If a patient dies in the hand of an incompetent and or negligent caregiver, then yes, it should be challenged. Keep in mind that doctors operate conveyor belts and the deadly issues most often were overlooked. Courts challenge "Unreasonable Expectations" but they frown on neglect. An attorney can only do so much defending incompetence or victimization, in the end the law prevails.
.

Arguing feelings as a justification for irrational reasoning is a no-starter. Emotion is a chemical reaction stimulated by the senses.

http://www.face-and-emotion.com/dataface/emotion/theories.jsp

History demonstrates that if our species needs a God to blame or justify its actions they will create one. Needs Fulfilled.

Artificial flowers cannot die for life within them is illusion.

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#4189 - 09/22/09 06:09 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: tacit]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
Originally Posted By: tacit

And even Einstein's limited view of god still blinded him from some physical truths of the physical world; ...


You used Einstein's surname, and the way you used God in that sentence is as if it is a name, therefore God should also be capitalized. Had you said "a god" it would be correct to make it lower case. But then I suppose you will claim it is used as a concept, not a name.

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#4190 - 09/22/09 06:17 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: tacit]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
Originally Posted By: tacit

One of the things I find most fascinating about religious faith is the notion that there is no awe and majesty in the universe without magic.


You are equating what most religious people I know consider to be divine power with magic. The concepts might be close, but there is a distinction. Because that divine power is manifested in ways humans cannot explain or comprehend doesn't reduce it to some sort of "hocus-pocus" trick.

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#4196 - 09/22/09 08:49 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
crarko Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Minnesota USA
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The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth. - Niels Bohr

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#4200 - 09/22/09 10:25 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: crarko]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)

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#4203 - 09/22/09 11:15 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: tacit]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: tacit
Why do you believe that?

Perhaps because i don't lack imagination. [it's far more interesting than using "logic" to "argue" about metaphysical matters.]

Even music has both mathematical and artistic (creative) properties.

Focusing on just one side of the brain is not as pleasurable. tongue


Edited by Hal Itosis (09/22/09 11:17 AM)
Edit Reason: it's never perfect. ;)

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#4206 - 09/22/09 11:52 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: tacit]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: tacit
And even Einstein's limited view of god still blinded him from some physical truths of the physical world; he refused to accept quantum physics on religious grounds--and those principles and models he refused to believe have been tested and found to be accurate. Einstein spent the last fifteen years of his life as a living monument to himself, contributing nothing to physics, because his religion caused him to refuse to accept the reality of how the universe works.

Oh I see... you want to blame his mistakes on religion (and/or God) too. smile That's a bit of a stretch (but not surprising).

Edit: i (obviously) already know about the "God does not play dice with the universe" quote. Have you got something else?

Originally Posted By: tacit
You do not need leprechauns, fairy dust, or invisible men with magic powers who live in the sky in order to be awestruck by the magnificence and incredible wonder of the physical world.
:
:
In fact, I think that relying on magic detracts from the awe and wonder of the world, because it says "all this is here because someone waved a magic wand and made it be here"--far less awe-inspiring </snip>

Leprechauns? Fairy dust? Invisible men who live in the sky? Wands? I think we're losing some sophistication here over semantical interpretations of the word magic. [We can/should drop the word magic/magical, if those are the types of visuals it gives you.]

I'm sorry, you were about to explain what caused the Big Bang... right? So okay, there was all this 'matter' (which came from where again?) floating around in space... and then one day it all exploded (because why?).

Thanks. wink

--

Edit #2: Interesting (seems the jury hasn't rendered a final verdict):
Originally Posted By: wiki
An interpretation of quantum mechanics is a statement which attempts to explain how quantum mechanics informs our understanding of nature. Although quantum mechanics has received thorough experimental testing, many of these experiments are open to different interpretations. There exist a number of contending schools of thought, differing over whether quantum mechanics can be understood to be deterministic, which elements of quantum mechanics can be considered "real", and other matters.

Although today this question is of special interest to philosophers of physics, many physicists continue to show a strong interest in the subject. Physicists usually consider an interpretation of quantum mechanics as an interpretation of the mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics, specifying the physical meaning of the mathematical entities of the theory.

Anyway... I assume you can prove that all the scientists mentioned on that page (and also those in the "main articles" which are linked by that page) are all athesists, except Einstein? Naturally. crazy



Edited by Hal Itosis (09/22/09 12:31 PM)

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#4209 - 09/22/09 12:16 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
crarko Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Minnesota USA
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The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth. - Niels Bohr

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#4212 - 09/22/09 12:57 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: crarko]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: crarko
The Brights smile

Interesting... politically motivated agnosticism. [or ?]

--

These quotes are for tacit...

ALBERT EINSTEIN:
I don't try to imagine a personal god; it suffices to stand in awe at the structure of the world, insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it.


ALBERT EINSTEIN:
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his [sic] creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious ourselves.



Edited by Hal Itosis (09/22/09 01:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added quotes

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#4215 - 09/22/09 03:43 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Hal Itosis]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
seems to me that as long as there's a God, we'll never take responsibility.
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#4217 - 09/22/09 03:57 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: roger]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
...responsibility for what?

On another note:
Do people who don't believe God exists still have clauses in their insurance policies excluding Acts of God? confused

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#4218 - 09/22/09 04:02 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Gregg
...responsibility for what?


everything. being good to each other, and all that sort of stuff. you know, making a rum go off this whole thing called life.
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#4222 - 09/22/09 05:14 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
crarko Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Minnesota USA
Originally Posted By: Gregg
...responsibility for what?

On another note:
Do people who don't believe God exists still have clauses in their insurance policies excluding Acts of God? confused


Or Vogon constructor fleets?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BfobqkUY8
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The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth. - Niels Bohr

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#4225 - 09/22/09 06:11 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
I'm sorry, you were about to explain what caused the Big Bang... right? So okay, there was all this 'matter' (which came from where again?) floating around in space... and then one day it all exploded (because why?).

Anyway... I assume you can prove that all the scientists mentioned on that page (and also those in the "main articles" which are linked by that page) are all athesists, except Einstein? Naturally. crazy


Now, what's that got to do with the war in Bosnia? smirk
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#4229 - 09/22/09 08:14 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Now, what's that got to do with the war in Bosnia? smirk

Nothing that i know of  confused  (wasn't that man-made?).

Or... which of those [noncontiguous] quotes of mine were you referencing?

[i get the feeling my humor detector has missed some association amidst this multi-threaded meshugganah. Connect the dots for me, if worthwhile.]

--

To all: that last wiki page i linked to cuts to the heart of the matter (and spirit) of what the OP was (seemed to be?) shooting for. That page lists several schools of thought which don't quite jive (much like the myriad of religious factions which disturb certain members), and -- for each school of thought -- that page links to a main article. For all the witty repartee we enjoy here, quantum mechanics is about as high-falutin' as it gets. If you all want to get seriously deep... let's go for it. [i'll do my share of studying.]

I would guess tacit that you subscribe to the "Copenhagen interpretation"? [i haven't picked any yet, but] i've ruled that one out after reading this quote:

Originally Posted By: wiki
The Copenhagen interpretation rejects questions like "where was the particle before I measured its position" as meaningless. The measurement process randomly picks out exactly one of the many possibilities allowed for by the state's wave function.

idunno... it just doesn't sound "unified". wink


Edited by Hal Itosis (09/22/09 08:53 PM)

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#4230 - 09/22/09 08:59 PM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
oldMacMan Offline


Registered: 09/02/09
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Gregg
Do people who don't believe God exists still have clauses in their insurance policies excluding Acts of God? confused


There was a very funny English TV comedy series in the 60s and 70s called "Misleading Cases" about a guy who brought private cases to court, usually to explore moral or ethical issues. In one episode about insurance, the legal definition of an act of God (for the purposes of insurance claims) was deemed to be something that no reasonable man would expect.
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#4239 - 09/23/09 05:05 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: oldMacMan]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
An Act Of God defined
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#4242 - 09/23/09 06:02 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: roger]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
Originally Posted By: roger
seems to me that as long as there's a God, we'll never take responsibility.

Originally Posted By: Gregg
...responsibility for what?

Originally Posted By: roger
everything. being good to each other, and all that sort of stuff. you know, making a rum go off this whole thing called life.


So you're saying people would be more responsible if no one thought God exists? You'll have to explain the logic. I can't wrap my head around that until I can stop shaking it.

How many hospitals were founded by Atheist organizations? ...many are run by Christian organizations. (Alert! unPC! ...but I know of only one other religion involved in running hospitals, on a much smaller scale, and you must know which one I'm speaking of.) Outside of my biological family, the people I've turned to for help have been caring, good people I knew from church. You must have a very different life experience!

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#4243 - 09/23/09 06:07 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: oldMacMan]
Gregg Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Milwaukee, WI (USA)
Well, I don't think they got it right. The definition in Harv's link is much better.

A reasonable man might expect a tornado or hurricane, but as a policyholder, he is not responsible for the consequences. On the other hand, many scientific experiments lead to conclusions that were not expected at the outset. In fact, frequently the result is the opposite of the expectations.

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#4245 - 09/23/09 06:50 AM Re: Unexplained Scientific Principles [Re: Gregg]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Gregg
Well, I don't think they got it right. The definition in Harv's link is much better.

Really? Consider this definition from Harv's link:

Act Of God
An event which is caused solely by the effect of nature or natural causes and without any interference by humans whatsoever.

On this particular planet there's arguably little if anything left that fits that bill. Even those phenomena that once upon a time might have easily qualified have now been 'contaminated' by human activity on a global scale. I suppose you could maintain that the exact location of the effects of those 'acts of God' has not been determined, but the counter argument would use the lack of sufficiently detailed models to explain that. The point of all this being that this line of reasoning won't get you anywhere while discussing the pro or cons of religion or God (two entirely different things, btw).

Anyway, against this background, the use of some sort of 'expectation' in the legal description of 'Acts of God' gains applicability and has the added advantage of being sufficiently vague to allow for wiggle room. That has never hurt when money was involved... shocked
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