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#41394 - 08/05/16 04:01 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I've been thinking along those lines with respect to the military.

It doesn't particularly matter if they don't vote for Hillary (although the help would be nice) as long as they don't vote for Trump.

They can talk him up to maintain face but just not pull the lever when they're in the booth and feel good about themselves.
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#41396 - 08/05/16 04:24 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Sometimes, it's good to see how the news media from other countries view us. Here's one from the BBC: Trump campaign teeters on the brink Let's hope that this is not a fluke! Still, it's a long way until November.
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#41398 - 08/05/16 05:12 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Nice article, but nothing eye-opening; it and the others I've read all talk about the possibility of Trump's changing course (Quote BBC: If Mr Trump can get back on message with a few carefully modulated speeches....), and all ignore the fact that HE CAN'T; he's a prisoner of his own psyche.

All the Democrats have to do is be creative and trot out someone new to insult Trump in a new and different way once every week and he'll forget that there's anything else of importance going on in his life; he's like a bluefish that'll strike at anything shiny.


Edited by artie505 (08/06/16 01:36 AM)
Edit Reason: Better word & cleanup
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41400 - 08/06/16 07:22 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
All the Democrats have to do is be creative and trot out someone new to insult Trump in a new and different way once every week and he'll forget that there's anything else of importance going on in his life; he's like a bluefish that'll strike at anything shiny.

Spot on! grin

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#41403 - 08/06/16 10:25 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Perhaps the best that we can hope is that people who dislike both Trump and Clinton (but otherwise would have voted for Trump) will not vote. That leaves fewer votes for Trump and, proportionally, more for Clinton.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to vociferously disagree with your methodology. Too many men and women have served and too many have died to guarantee our right to vote. I am of the opinion someone who doesn't vote has in effect renounced their citizenship and needs to move elsewhere to make room for new immigrants who will take pride in their duties as citizens of this, their new country.

Oops I nearly fell off my soap box.
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#41404 - 08/06/16 11:33 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Perhaps the best that we can hope is that people who dislike both Trump and Clinton (but otherwise would have voted for Trump) will not vote. That leaves fewer votes for Trump and, proportionally, more for Clinton.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to vociferously disagree with your methodology. Too many men and women have served and too many have died to guarantee our right to vote. I am of the opinion someone who doesn't vote has in effect renounced their citizenship and needs to move elsewhere to make room for new immigrants who will take pride in their duties as citizens of this, their new country.

Oops I nearly fell off my soap box.
You can stay on your soap box. IMHO, voting should be mandatory for all citizens. Is that too radical?
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Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41405 - 08/06/16 12:17 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Too many men and women have served and too many have died to guarantee our right to vote. I am of the opinion someone who doesn't vote has in effect renounced their citizenship and needs to move elsewhere to make room for new immigrants who will take pride in their duties as citizens of this, their new country.

I don't know how Texas works, but until not all that long ago NY drew jurors from voting rolls, so many people never registered to vote in order to avoid jury duty.

Talk about it!
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41406 - 08/06/16 01:11 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
In Texas the jury rolls are pulled from the driver's license database.
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#41407 - 08/06/16 01:27 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I imagine that a person is far more likely to have a driver's license in Texas than in NY.

Since maybe the '80s, NY has used every piece of paper it's got to find prospective jurors...voting rolls, driver's licenses, tax returns, and, as far as I know, all other public records.

The effort has apparently been wildly successful, because when I was first called in the mid-60s it was for two weeks every two years, and it's now every eight years and only one day unless you're selected for a jury or on an ongoing voir dire.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41421 - 08/08/16 06:23 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Sometimes, it's good to see how the news media from other countries view us.

I'll leave it to the media to speak for themselves, but I can attest to the fact that he has the citizens of other countries wondering. For example:

Donald Trump brought out his economic "plan" which includes a plan to re-negotiate the NAFTA. And he says: "If we can't get a new deal we will walk away."

Good going Mr. Trump. You're going to walk away from your country's single biggest customer (by a wide margin), a customer who purchases more than $330 billion of your goods and services every year.

Canada buys more from the U.S. than from any other nation. But, let's get a bit more focussed. How about the impact on your home state of New York. Well....

• Canada is New York’s #1 customer

• Total Canada–New York goods trade exceeds $30 billion per year


And, saving the best for last......

• nearly 700,000 jobs in New York depend on Canada–U.S. trade and investment.

This Canadian has only one question: How can anyone be so stupid?


Edited by ryck (08/08/16 08:42 PM)
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#41422 - 08/09/16 12:13 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Perhaps the best that we can hope is that people who dislike both Trump and Clinton (but otherwise would have voted for Trump) will not vote. That leaves fewer votes for Trump and, proportionally, more for Clinton.
I agree with your sentiment, but I have to vociferously disagree with your methodology. Too many men and women have served and too many have died to guarantee our right to vote. I am of the opinion someone who doesn't vote has in effect renounced their citizenship and needs to move elsewhere to make room for new immigrants who will take pride in their duties as citizens of this, their new country.
Oops I nearly fell off my soap box.

You can stay on your soap box. IMHO, voting should be mandatory for all citizens. Is that too radical?

It seems to me that a mandatory voting requirement is the very antithesis of a free and democratic society. Maybe not.
But if I were forced to vote (especially upon pain of penalty) I would — on principle — spoil my ballot, no matter what the issue being voted upon or my attitude towards it.

As for the comment that "Too many men and women have served and too many have died to guarantee our right to vote": The flip side of that is that they died to guarantee our right not to vote. That's the difference between a democratic and a totalitarian society.

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#41423 - 08/09/16 03:13 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
You make some good points, Grelber. On the other hand, although we (theoretically) have a free and democratic society, we are still compelled to do certain things as citizens. Included in this is the obligation to pay taxes and to serve in the military if and when the draft is reinstated. Although I would not be serious about compelling everyone to vote, those who don't, IMHO, have lost credibility because they don't participate in this fundamental right.
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OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41424 - 08/09/16 04:12 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
... Although I would not be serious about compelling everyone to vote, those who don't, IMHO, have lost credibility because they don't participate in this fundamental right.

I fully agree. I just don't think that "coercion" is the right and proper means of achieving an end.
(And contrary to Señor Hitler, waterboarding doesn't work either.)

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#41425 - 08/09/16 06:28 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: grelber
It seems to me that a mandatory voting requirement is the very antithesis of a free and democratic society. Maybe not.

I think "Maybe not".

In order to work, a free and democratic society requires that all the participants do some things and don't do others. When a person does something they should not do, there's a consequence…fines, incarceration, whatever.

It seems to me that, when a person does not do something they should do, there should also be a consequence. Getting to "consequence" begins with formalizing the requirement. e.g. Mandatory voting.

Australia seems to have found a good compromise( introduced in 1924). In their compulsory voting system, failure to vote results in a fine. They have experienced a decent rise in participation but it's not 100% because about 5% of their citizens choose to pay the fine rather than vote.


Edited by ryck (08/09/16 06:33 AM)
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#41426 - 08/09/16 07:32 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: ryck
Australia seems to have found a good compromise (introduced in 1924). In their compulsory voting system, failure to vote results in a fine. They have experienced a decent rise in participation but it's not 100% because about 5% of their citizens choose to pay the fine rather than vote.

What do you expect from a country which was founded by criminals (ie, started out as a penal colony)?! tongue smirk

There are a couple dozen countries which have instituted compulsory voting, but about half of them don't bother to enforce it.

As noted earlier, if forced to vote (by some sort of Orwellian overlords), I would prefer to subvert the system (by spoiling my ballot).

In case it isn't obvious, I count myself as a "conservative anarchist" and was mentored by the best in that regard.

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#41427 - 08/09/16 11:34 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
There have been a number of proposals to increase participation in the electoral process in the United States, such as making voting day a national holiday, changing the day of the week to Saturday and/or Sunday, but congress has steadfastly refused any such measures hiding from their own cupidity behind a curtain of tradition.. Arguably the fewer voters there are the easier it is to swing an election one way or the other. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of papers, books, blogs, editorials, studies, etc. on this very topic.

In my home state of Texas, the far right wing extremists in the legislature, have led the state to spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to reduce access to the ballot box, and defending their patently racist laws through the federal courts only to get slapped down again and again until we are one again teetering on the brink of a federally managed electoral system. You might well ask where the money for all the law suits comes from and sadly ther answer is much of it comes from reduced state support of schools, and programs for economically disadvantaged children. There may be light at the end of the tunnel, a credible movement in the GOP to put forth a more moderate candidate in opposition to the darling of the extreme right, the freshman senator from Texas Ted Cruz. (Unverified rumor has it the Senate Republican caucus is helping fund the movement.)

Oops, I still haven't climbed down from my soapbox — I would apologize, but I am not a proponent of lying either.
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#41428 - 08/09/16 03:07 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Just when you thought that Trump could not stoop lower: Donald Trump Suggests ‘Second Amendment People’ Could Act Against Hillary Clinton The reactions of the audience are even more appalling. If this is the American electorate, I'm profoundly ashamed. And Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave.
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Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41429 - 08/09/16 04:40 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
"Guy behind Trump immediately realized what he said was a problem." shows the part that was cut from the Times video.

Note the shocked reaction of the man in red and that the woman next to him apparently thought it was funny; he doesn't look very pleased with her reaction (as can be seen in the Times video).

Edit: Hmmm... I wonder why the Times edited the video in Trump's favor?


Edited by artie505 (08/09/16 05:09 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41430 - 08/09/16 04:42 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Here's a statistic from Americans More Positive About Democratic Than GOP Convention that has been overlooked so far:

Likelihood to Vote for Party's Presidential Candidate Based on What You Saw/Read About Party's Convention...

The 2016 Republican convention is the first after which a greater percentage of Americans have said they are "less likely" rather than "more likely" to vote for the party's presidential nominee.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41431 - 08/09/16 04:58 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Just when you thought that Trump could not stoop lower: Donald Trump Suggests ‘Second Amendment People’ Could Act Against Hillary Clinton The reactions of the audience are even more appalling. If this is the American electorate, I'm profoundly ashamed. And Thomas Jefferson is turning over in his grave.

The man has obliquely encouraged rioting and the assassination of a political rival, and blatantly committed treason...all with impunity, and his followers love it.

This election has changed America very much for the worse, and it isn't even close to over.

I think that the wrong people are being targeted for deportation!
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41432 - 08/09/16 05:38 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
It appears to me that the NY Times is trying to report as objectively as possible in order to avoid the appearance of bias. That paper certainly is not sparing Clinton: Emails Renew Questions About Clinton Foundation and State Dept. Overlap, probably because the Times is widely regarded as having a liberal bias (which is certainly true when you read the editorials). The Times needs to maintain an air of neutrality in reporting the news.

However, the BBC has no reason to pull its punches. See US election: Anger over Donald Trump gun rights remarks
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41433 - 08/09/16 05:47 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Sorry, Jon, but I think that objectivity and neutrality demand that events be reported as they happen...by definition.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#41434 - 08/09/16 05:50 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Agreed, Artie. I felt that the Times article about Trump soft-pedaled the implications of his remarks, unlike the coverage of the BBC. The Times tried to report what happened, without too much interpretation. That should be left to the editorial page.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41435 - 08/09/16 05:51 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Here's the Times editorial: Further Into the Muck With Mr. Trump
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Jon

OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#41436 - 08/09/16 06:00 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Much as I might agree with BBC's analysis of the U. S. presidential race, To the best of my knowledge they have never claimed to be unbiased in their reporting.
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