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#40922 - 06/16/16 12:41 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
[quote=ryck]Civil juries have even been known to find for the plaintiff even though the plaintiff did nothing wrong. I was on a civil jury where several jurors acknowledged the defendant did nothing wrong, but because the plaintiff had suffered pain and anguish she deserved compensation and they wanted to find for the plaintiff. FWIW as there were only three jurors who felt that way the decision of the other nine was sufficient to prevail and we found for the defendant.

I wonder if some of that isn't the mentality of "I've been wronged and somebody's gotta be held responsible!"

What I say to them: No, sometimes your luck's just crap. Life isn't always fair. And no, you're not entitled to compensation for when life takes a dump on you. More specifically, just because someone else is nearby and was involved in it, doesn't make them responsible for it.
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#40925 - 06/16/16 04:51 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Virtual1]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
And no, you're not entitled to compensation for when life takes a dump on you.

Gee, any chance I could convince you to write to our Prime Minister? We have had a series of federal governments who seem to think they should:

a) apologize for every wrong that's ever been committed against anyone and
b) write fat cheques to compensate.

It's got so out of hand that even the gay community has now pitched the government that they should get an apology (and a cheque, of course) for past wrongs.

Gads.
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#40944 - 06/19/16 10:24 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Virtual1]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: slolerner
Does the system still allow jury nullification?

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqH_Y1TupoQ

I now understand why that Criminal Court Judge got bent out of shape when I raised my hand - I was the only one to do so. - when he asked the the voir dire panel if any of us would vote against a conviction based on the facts because we didn't agree with the law.

Actually, I didn't have nullification in mind...wasn't even aware of the concept; my response was rooted in the thought that (to the best of my knowledge) the ONLY opportunity an INDIVIDUAL American has to raise hir LONE voice and make it HEARD is to say "That law sucks! Hung jury!"

Needless to say, we didn't get into a philosophical discussion, but had we done so I would have made a very strong point that the privilege is not one to be taken lightly, but neither is it one to be ignored (if nobody asks the right question and nullifies the possibility).
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#40950 - 06/20/16 07:16 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Virtual1]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
I wonder if some of that isn't the mentality of "I've been wronged and somebody's gotta be held responsible!"

I think it is more a case of, "The defendant has insurance therefore the only one hurt will be in insurance company so why not grant the defendant a windfall."

My wife once sat next to a district court judge on an airline flight and during their conversation he said exactly that. When, my wife pointed out that we all pay for the insurance either directly in the form of premiums or indirectly in the form of increased prices to pay for the increased premiums, the judge was quiet and very thoughtful and finally confessed to her, "I guess you are right. That never occurred to me before." The scary thing to me is the judge, who had a reputation of being a very good jurist, was so wrapped up in the mechanics and letter of the law that he had never considered the impact not only on those directly involved but the general public as well.
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#40954 - 06/20/16 08:15 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The scary thing to me is the judge, who had a reputation of being a very good jurist, was so wrapped up in the mechanics and letter of the law that he had never considered the impact not only on those directly involved but the general public as well.

Sounds like the man spent his life in a closet.

It's incomprehensible to me that he could have served in the legal profession long enough and with enough distinction to have become a judge without ever having bumped into the reality noted by your wife.

The thought of it makes me fearful of the "justice" dispensed in his court!

Edit: It also leaves me wondering how he goes about acquiring a new car. tongue


Edited by artie505 (06/20/16 08:59 AM)
Edit Reason: Better word +
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#40956 - 06/20/16 08:52 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
The whole (slightly tangential) discussion revolving around jury duty would lead one to avoid same by hook or by crook, unless of course one is otherwise bored senseless and/or is at loose ends as to what to do for entertainment.

As for the latter, might I suggest learning a foreign language (eg, Arabic, Russian, Greek, Chinese — something not written in Roman letters which can also recruit right-hemisphere learning) to while away the hours, as well as forestall dementia's setting in.

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#40966 - 06/20/16 09:53 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
The whole (slightly tangential) discussion revolving around jury duty would lead one to avoid same by hook or by crook, unless of course one is otherwise bored senseless and/or is at loose ends as to what to do for entertainment.

And generations of "good" Americans did, indeed, avoid it, but by never registering to vote (here in NYC, anyhow), which was kinda counterproductive.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#40971 - 06/21/16 09:16 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
Ira L Online


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: grelber
As for the latter, might I suggest learning a foreign language (eg, Arabic, Russian, Greek, Chinese — something not written in Roman letters which can also recruit right-hemisphere learning) to while away the hours, as well as forestall dementia's setting in.


Which reminds me of the recent incident on an airline. A mathematics professor was writing some mathematical thoughts of a symbolic nature. The woman sitting next to him saw these, did not recognize the script, saw that he was "Middle Eastern in appearances", he had spoken to her curtly ("Is Syracuse your home?" "No.") and notified a member of the flight crew of suspicious behaviors. The professor was pulled off, questioned but allowed to return to his seat and the flight continued

Oh, the professor was an award winning Italian mathematician.
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#40972 - 06/21/16 09:54 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Ira L]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Apropos same ...

If I had a laptop to travel with, I never would, given the rather less than sacrosanct treatment of one's data, especially when crossing international borders.

However, I have a great screen saver which is guaranteed to freak out any Nosy Parker who is wont to check out what you're doing on your computer:
At a click it starts a visual countdown from 10 (virtually full-screen font). If you start mumbling gibberish or, even better, some form of Arabic, you're guaranteed to cause an effect.
I particularly enjoy capping off the countdown with an elegant calligraphic rendition of "Allahu akbar".
(You could also offer your seatmate a 72-hour Depend®.)

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#40973 - 06/21/16 11:45 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: grelber
However, I have a great screen saver which is guaranteed to freak out any Nosy Parker who is wont to check out what you're doing on your computer:
At a click it starts a visual countdown from 10 (virtually full-screen font). If you start mumbling gibberish or, even better, some form of Arabic, you're guaranteed to cause an effect.
I particularly enjoy capping off the countdown with an elegant calligraphic rendition of "Allahu akbar".

Or you could go to a theatre and wait until 15 minutes after the movie starts and yell FIRE!

and no, neither sounds like even a remotely good idea.
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#40974 - 06/21/16 01:30 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Virtual1]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: grelber
However, I have a great screen saver which is guaranteed to freak out any Nosy Parker who is wont to check out what you're doing on your computer:
At a click it starts a visual countdown from 10 (virtually full-screen font). If you start mumbling gibberish or, even better, some form of Arabic, you're guaranteed to cause an effect.
I particularly enjoy capping off the countdown with an elegant calligraphic rendition of "Allahu akbar".

Or you could go to a theatre and wait until 15 minutes after the movie starts and yell FIRE!
and no, neither sounds like even a remotely good idea.


I thought somebody might come up with that (or a similar) objection. But, no, it's not the same thing. Nor is it like using the word "bomb" in an airline terminal.
It is virtually the same as the Italian mathematician example ... namely, no harm, no foul. And it screws over the stupid and ignorant.

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#40978 - 06/21/16 03:32 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
I thought somebody might come up with that (or a similar) objection. But, no, it's not the same thing. Nor is it like using the word "bomb" in an airline terminal.
It is virtually the same as the Italian mathematician example ... namely, no harm, no foul. And it screws over the stupid and ignorant.

No harm???

The difference is INTENT. Admittedly the lady who was frightened by a mathematical formula demonstrated her ignorance, but ignorance is not a crime and neither she nor the mathematician intended to create an incident which is what you are proposing. I suspect the airline, TSA, and airport security police would take a very dim view of your little practical joke and at best you could end up being asked to leave the airplane and take a bus. You could even end up with a fine or even jail time.
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#40979 - 06/21/16 04:11 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The difference is INTENT. Admittedly the lady who was frightened by a mathematical formula demonstrated her ignorance, but ignorance is not a crime and neither she nor the mathematician intended to create an incident which is what you are proposing. I suspect the airline, TSA, and airport security police would take a very dim view of your little practical joke and at best you could end up being asked to leave the airplane and take a bus. You could even end up with a fine or even jail time.

Maybe yes, maybe no. There is absolutely no literal threat.
But, as I noted in my preamble, it's wholly moot. I would never travel with any electronic device which could be seized and searched by authorities, legitimate or otherwise.

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#40984 - 06/22/16 06:04 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: honestone]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Inciting a stampede or riot isn't a protected act, anywhere. If you do something with the intent to get that result, you are responsible for that result even if the victim was stupid for responding like that.

Taking a total disconnect - if you toss a firecracker under someone's seat, and they jump when it goes off and hit their head on the bin overhead, you will probably be found and held responsible for their injury in any civil or criminal response.

Now let me really shorten that: "Don't be an ass"
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#40987 - 06/22/16 07:41 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: Virtual1]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Inciting a stampede or riot isn't a protected act, anywhere. If you do something with the intent to get that result, you are responsible for that result even if the victim was stupid for responding like that.

Continuing in the vein of the hypothetical ...
It is extremely difficult to prove intent, which is an internal mental construct, if that's what is necessary to determine "guilt".
On the other hand, proximate and/or ultimate cause* is a more achievable possibility, but limited to that culpability is reduced.
(* For example, proximate cause of someone's rear bumper being crunched is my vehicle's having hit it; the ultimate cause might be the failure of my vehicle's braking system or my inattentiveness. In either case, albeit otherwise irrelevant to the main issue, the matter is dealt with by liability insurance.)

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#40991 - 06/22/16 08:31 PM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Continuing in the vein of the hypothetical ...

And getting back to reality, once you're busted, neither lack of intent nor even innocence will save you from having to talk and perhaps even pay your way out of it.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#40992 - 06/23/16 01:44 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: grelber
Continuing in the vein of the hypothetical ...

And getting back to reality, once you're busted, neither lack of intent nor even innocence will save you from having to talk and perhaps even pay your way out of it.

The reality is that, given the premises I stated, such can never happen. So let's just drop this.

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#40993 - 06/23/16 02:02 AM Re: A Very Clever Way To Pay For a Ticket! [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: grelber
Continuing in the vein of the hypothetical ...

And getting back to reality, once you're busted, (Edit: you're busted, and) neither lack of intent nor even innocence will save you from having to talk and perhaps even pay your way out of it.

The reality is that, given the premises I stated, such can never happen. So let's just drop this.

The reality is that given those premises it can never happen to you, but it could happen to someone dumb enough to like and execute your "cute" idea.

Accordingly, a complete discussion of potential consequences is not unwarranted.


Edited by artie505 (06/23/16 05:53 PM)
Edit Reason: Make better
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