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#39078 - 02/24/16 11:50 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: tacit]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for clarifying what's actually going on...what's at stake, tacit...excellent post!

It puts an interesting spin on the thought of more than a year of a 4 - 4 Supreme Court.

Quote:
The All Writs Act requires citizens and companies to take any measures "necessary or appropriate in aid of their respective jurisdictions and agreeable to the usages and principles of law." (Emphasis added)

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Is this "necessary and appropriate" to do when the people you're ordering to do it are private citizens and not government employees?

Unfortunately, the quoted language seems to extend to private citizens.

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The All Writs Act of 1789 was clearly never intended to apply to a situation like this; how could it be?

Nor was the Constitution (and that's not unique to the present situation), which has got some rough times ahead of it, and the Court's politicization is not going to help in the least! frown


Edited by artie505 (02/25/16 08:06 AM)
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#39081 - 02/25/16 06:53 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: tacit]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: tacit
Forensics laws are specific about what has to happen with any forensic software used to extract data from a digital device in evidence. The software must be regression-tested, every part of it must be documented, it must be evaluated by peer review, and it must be tested on hardware identical to that of the target device. This is necessary to preserve the chain of evidence and make sure the forensic software isn't inadvertently modifying the data.
A small but important consequence of the legal requirements regarding forensics tools (including software) merits special mention. It makes the FBI’s ‘reassuring’ comment that Apple could produce and keep the required software in-house and under wraps inherently impossible, rendering the agency’s suggestion disingenuous and arguably beyond ludricous.

That said, one can see the Government’s reasoning where it feels it has to make a stance somewhere and shoehorn its longstanding surveillance habits re privacy rights into a new and essentially incompatible circumstance. And since we all know where that has led in recent years, this particular development doesn't bode much good. The only way to safeguard privacy may have to be based on the physical impossibility to compromise it, and that is a tough standard to meet.
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#39082 - 02/25/16 08:01 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: tacit]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: tacit
So here's the scoop. Bear with me, this might get long and technically complicated.

Thank you for that very informative post!
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#39086 - 02/25/16 10:29 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: tacit]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Nice explanation. Your diverse knowledge and experiences are always "entertaining". Thank you.

"Atomic force microscope"—nice touch, but really? wink
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#39088 - 02/25/16 12:25 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: tacit]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
More fuel for the fire from the New York Times and this from MacNN
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#39090 - 02/25/16 03:16 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: joemikeb]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jcuzi
That certainly inspires confidence that the government will be competent in respecting the Constitution...

Well, say what you will about the late Antonin Scalia, but he was a strict Constitutional Originalist and won't be here when this one makes its way to the Supreme Court and it looks like Apple will end up there if they choose to fight this fight, IMHO.

Then there is every other country they do business in...

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#39092 - 02/25/16 03:33 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: slolerner
Well, say what you will about the late Antonin Scalia, but he was a strict Constitutional Originalist and won't be here when this one makes its way to the Supreme Court and it looks like Apple will end up there if they choose to fight this fight, IMHO.

If this winds up expediting its way to an 8 Justice Court I certainly hope it's the Gov't that's appealing.
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#39104 - 02/26/16 06:12 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I don't think there is any question this will end up in the Supreme Court, but if the court splits 4 to 4 then the decision will be that of the last appeals court to hear the case — or the argument will have been delayed beyond the point of any possible usefulness to anyone other than historians. Unless, of course the reactionaries in the senate will agree to hold hearings on the president's nominees.

IMHO their stated refusal to hold hearings should be taken to the Supreme Court as a failure to do their constitutional duty.
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#39105 - 02/26/16 06:17 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: joemikeb]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
IMHO, It's going to take a long time to get from the Circuit Courts to the Supreme Court. My only point is that the Writ will have to be decided whether it violates the Constitution.

For the time being, this phone is not the so-called ticking time bomb everyone is making it out to be, it is merely part of an investigation and as tacit and many others have pointed out, it doesn't seem there is enough to be gained from this particular phone. By the time it gets to the Supreme court, chances are Google and Microsoft will be on on board.


Edited by slolerner (02/26/16 06:24 AM)
Edit Reason: more

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#39106 - 02/26/16 06:49 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
There is a lot here to look at, Apple has developed propritary technology that adds to the usefulness of the product. The public perceives this competitive advantage, and not complying to the FBI"s request, as greed on the part of Apple. As someone much smarter than me once said, people prefer to believe a simple explanation that makes sense to a more complex one that is true.

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#39172 - 02/29/16 07:31 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: slolerner
There is a lot here to look at, Apple has developed propritary technology that adds to the usefulness of the product. The public perceives this competitive advantage, and not complying to the FBI"s request, as greed on the part of Apple. As someone much smarter than me once said, people prefer to believe a simple explanation that makes sense to a more complex one that is true.

Occam's Razor
"Non sunt multiplicanda entia sine necessitate"
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#39299 - 03/06/16 03:20 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: Virtual1]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
Microsoft, Google Join Rivals to Back Apple in FBI Fight

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2...a-terror-victim

This could also be decided legislatively and then appealed to The Supreme court like The Affordable Care Act.


Edited by slolerner (03/06/16 03:35 AM)
Edit Reason: more

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#39426 - 03/12/16 08:12 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
Is it possible that the firmware update I didn't want that created a link to the Apple cloud is used to monitor certain computers, to help law enforcement already?

That way, Apple gets to control what info they disclose.


Edited by slolerner (03/12/16 08:16 PM)
Edit Reason: More

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#39465 - 03/14/16 08:58 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
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#39466 - 03/14/16 09:05 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley

I assume the Sheriff is an elected officer, in which case he seems to have taken a page from the Donald Trump playbook: "Issue a threat I can't actually follow through on in order to raise my profile".


Edited by ryck (03/14/16 09:06 AM)
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#39468 - 03/14/16 09:27 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: ryck]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
Well, I guess Tim Cook won't be going to Florida any time soon...

Can't help thinking "What Would Steve Jobs Do?"

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#39480 - 03/14/16 12:20 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: slolerner
Well, I guess Tim Cook won't be going to Florida any time soon…

I seriously doubt Time Cook would be deterred by a glory hunting right wing nut in Florida.
Originally Posted By: slolerner
Can't help thinking "What Would Steve Jobs Do?"

Pretty much what he darn well pleased and in this case I'll bet he would have been first in line to tell the DoJ, "Not only NO but H____ NO!" Remember Steve's favorite sound on the Mac is called "sosumi".
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#39491 - 03/14/16 06:48 PM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: joemikeb]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoeMikeB
Pretty much what he darn well pleased and in this case I'll bet he would have been first in line to tell the DoJ, "Not only NO but H____ NO!" Remember Steve's favorite sound on the Mac is called "sosumi".

"soarrestmi."

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#39499 - 03/15/16 07:10 AM Re: And now for the story behind the news [Re: slolerner]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: slolerner
Originally Posted By: JoeMikeB
Pretty much what he darn well pleased and in this case I'll bet he would have been first in line to tell the DoJ, "Not only NO but H____ NO!" Remember Steve's favorite sound on the Mac is called "sosumi".

"soarrestmi."

and here I thought it was "hahyousofunny"
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#39554 - 03/18/16 08:08 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The battle between Apple and many other major players in the computer industry versus the DoJ rages on in the press as seen in this MacNN article
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#39555 - 03/18/16 08:17 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The battle between Apple and many other major players in the computer industry versus the DoJ rages on in the press as seen in this MacNN article

And check the slew of articles in today's New York Times.

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#39568 - 03/21/16 05:02 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: grelber]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Quote:
Cook also defended Apple's stance on the issue (which is that the government does not have this authority, as the Brooklyn case judge ruled), but brought up a previous piece of legislation to support his stand -- CALEA, the "regulatory arm for the telecommunications area," which was written to cover exactly this sort of "clash" of government and private interests. Apple's lawyers have argued that the original ex parte order from Judge Sheri Pym that kicked off the controversy was invalid under CALEA, along with numerous constitutional reasons.

Quote:
The court that initially ordered Apple to comply with the FBI's demands is holding a hearing for oral arguments on whether to rescind the order or not on March 22.

Apple isn't failing to obey the law or a legal order, they're resisting obeying an illegal order. So the fight right now is to get this illegal order vacated. It looks like CALEA was created specifically to limit the (incredibly broad) reach of the All Writs Act, and that Pam failed to consider CALEA in her decision.

I for one think that CALEA is a hack, and the correct fix is to strike down the AWA itself, remove it from the books. Why?

Quote:
the DOJ looks at the AWA as a sort of "magic wand" that removes all legal concerns.

Couldn't have said it better myself. AWA basically functions like a "You can ignore the law if it's limiting your ability to enforce the law." And that's arguably the worst sort of law you can have on the books. With that, you can just neatly throw away the rest of the laws because they don't matter anymore, LEA does whatever it wants to do, and you are obligated to cooperate fully. (but if you did that, it would be easier to recognize the police state)

I think the only difference at this point is whether the government chooses to follow the will of the people. The laws are set up in such a way that they can, if they want to, ignore the laws and the rights of the people. People should be able to rely on the laws to protect them, not pray for the legal system to be generous enough to interpret them in a beneficial way most of the time. Otherwise life is rather scary.
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#39572 - 03/21/16 05:34 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: Virtual1]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
I just heard that a security vulnerability has been found that may lead to hackers being able to crack one, unbelievably. Now the plot thickens.
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#39578 - 03/21/16 07:52 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: slolerner]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The latest word is Apple's engineers are considering refusing to work on a so-called DoJ OS even if Apple loses. Apparently they would rather quit their jobs than subvert the security of iOS.
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#39579 - 03/21/16 08:00 AM Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down [Re: joemikeb]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
That's great. They should not because if they do it, there is really no way to keep something as valuable as that vulnerability a secret. It would make the phone hackable.

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