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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
joemikeb #39700 03/27/16 09:47 PM
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Tim Cook was very clear about the consequences, the scariest scenario he spoke of was giving someone the means to take down a power grid, that hits people hard. Law enforcement may have lost round one but this issue is far from over. One thing I know for sure, the Israelis are very good at keeping secrets. Now, will they tell Apple what the vulnerability is or will they act in their own interest?

The incompetence of the San Bernardino police created the opportunity to rally the public for code-breaking techniques. Like I stated earlier, the failure of the FBI was not following through when they became aware of the overseas internet chat sessions of these two people before they even met in person.

It's a very interesting game of chess.

Last edited by slolerner; 03/27/16 10:11 PM. Reason: More
Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39701 03/27/16 10:23 PM
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The way the Israelis took down the off the grid nuclear power plant in Iran only became known when the worm was subsequently introduced to the internet at large. When Sophos figured out what it was, "their jaws literally dropped."

Last edited by slolerner; 03/28/16 11:25 AM. Reason: Clarity
Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39704 03/28/16 10:47 AM
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How FBI vs. Apple could cripple corporate and government security. I think that the government's efforts to force Apple's hand may be a classic case of biting your nose to spite your face.


Jon

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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
jchuzi #39712 03/28/16 11:29 PM
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Jon

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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
jchuzi #39713 03/29/16 02:36 AM
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Supposedly the hack was released to the media.

"It was done through NAND memory duplication. Easy way to think about this is like this: Virtual machine, or in this case, virtual phone. Once they were able to duplicate the memory, they were able to run a simple password hack algorithm until they got the correct password. Whenever it reached the limit where the content would be deleted, they would just reset the virtual phone and continue right where tHey left off until they went through all combinations. Note this was reported in the news a few days back."

Now Apple fixes the security and everyone buys new phones.

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39714 03/29/16 02:54 AM
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Unless NAND memory duplication is something new, the "hack" sounds like something that should have been figured out ages ago. (Actually, Arthur C. Clarke more or less anticipated this problem and its solution in Against The Fall Of Night, The City and the Stars, or both [The latter was a rewrite of the former.] back in the '50s.)


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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
artie505 #39717 03/29/16 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Actually, Arthur C. Clarke more or less anticipated this problem and its solution….. back in the '50s.

Wow.


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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
ryck #39720 03/29/16 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: artie505
Actually, Arthur C. Clarke more or less anticipated this problem and its solution….. back in the '50s.

Wow.

I should have explained.

The book's/books' protagonist was given custody of a robot that had been "locked" by its master many centuries before.

It followed him around, but wouldn't communicate, act, or interact, so he took it to the computer that ran the city (The "City Fathers") which couldn't unlock it but was able to create a duplicate without the lock.

Close enough?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
artie505 #39721 03/29/16 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Close enough?

Yup. Thanks.


ryck

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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
ryck #39722 03/29/16 03:20 PM
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Was it the Master's work robot or home robot? crazy

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39724 03/29/16 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: slolerner
Was it the Master's work robot or home robot? crazy

Doesn't matter.

Arthur C. Clarke has proven prescient in many things.

One devoutly wishes to come to Childhood's End.
(If you aren't familiar with that one, read the original or latest edition. Do not watch the SyFy 3-part series which came out a while ago; it well and truly sucks, with only 5-6 plot points which are commensurate with the book.)

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
grelber #39726 03/29/16 07:32 PM
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Childhood's End is one of my favorite sci-fi novels. I first read it when I was about 10 and have re-read it a few times.


Jon

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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
artie505 #39729 03/29/16 09:48 PM
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Please be patient, back to this because I am trying to understand.
Originally Posted By: artie505
Unless NAND memory duplication is something new, the "hack" sounds like something that should have been figured out ages ago.

Does this make more sense:
Originally Posted By: AppleInsider reader comment
..I'd be willing to lay odds that this involved copying the data and replicating it many times over, then "tricking" the iPhone into thinking the replicated data is the original data. Basically, an assembly line process. Bump the number up to, say, an 8 digit code, and the cost of this approach starts to become excessive.

Is this a viable solution?
Originally Posted By: AppleInsider reader comment
Apple will move the delay between passcode attempts from iOS into the secure enclave of the chip.

I wonder if tacit believes the phone was hacked... For whatever reason, this story intrigues me.

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39777 04/01/16 01:53 AM
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NAND duplication is what all the folks I follow who do computer security work think was the most likely attack. If this is true, the ability to do this has already been closed off in the iPhone 6 and later models. The information in the Secure Enclave cant be replicated this way.


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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
tacit #39779 04/01/16 02:41 AM
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Thanks.

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
tacit #39820 04/07/16 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: tacit
NAND duplication is what all the folks I follow who do computer security work think was the most likely attack. If this is true, the ability to do this has already been closed off in the iPhone 6 and later models. The information in the Secure Enclave cant be replicated this way.

well, they'd need to duplicate the nand that's inside the SE where the key is, and then duplicate the device's memory. But the SE is physically designed to be hardened against this specific attack.

Bullets work great against enemy soldiers, until they're inside a tank. The bullet will still be effective, but you've just got a problem getting the bullet into the tank.


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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
Virtual1 #39821 04/08/16 01:57 AM
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If you’re to believe the FBI, ‘tanks’ other than the 5C model are impervious to their current hack, at least for now:
- FBI says hack tool only works on iPhone 5c

Likewise, the (current) political side of things will also impede legislative easing of government sanctioned phone hacking:
- White House won't support encryption unlocking legislation


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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
alternaut #39823 04/08/16 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: alternaut
If you’re to believe the FBI, ‘tanks’ other than the 5C model are impervious to their current hack, at least for now:
- FBI says hack tool only works on iPhone 5c

What I personally believe is that the majority of the FBI/CIA/NSA's public statements are composed not for my benefit, but for the benefit of others, to deceive them as to their capabilities. So I really don't trust much of anything they have to say. They're in the business of lying.

Who in their right mind would believe that the FBI didn't bother to covertly ask around if anyone could help them break into this phone before creating a huge public spectacle over it? If someone has to call up the FBI and say "oh hey did you know we offer this public service that might help you?" before they figure out it's an option, somebody's not doing their job. Federal Bureau of Investigation needs to learn some investigation skills maybe? I'm not buying it.

As to the 5C, it was the last Apple iPhone that lacked the Secure Enclave chip, and that's why this process of siphoning off the NAND was as easy as it is. They just sucked all the data off the naked undefended NAND chips and quickly brute-forced the 10,00 combination key. Enter the SE and it's a whole new world of hurt, changing from software obfuscation into actively physically protecting the key. It's certainly still not impossible to do, it just becomes several degrees more difficult. It's still just 10,000 combinations to brute force, but the key is being physically defended against extraction.



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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
Virtual1 #39825 04/08/16 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: Virtual1
It's still just 10,000 combinations to brute force, but the key is being physically defended against extraction.

IPhone 6 and later require a six digit key thus upping the number of combinations to 1,000,000 instead of the previous 4 digit key.

I agree the FBI, as well as a number of other government agencies are in the business of -- if not outright lying -- obfuscation of facts. But their comment about being pretty good about keeping secrets is downright stupid. If they have such a key it is dead certain it will be given to other agencies and inevitably it will be leaked and the bad guys will get it. If they are so sanguine about their ability to keep a secret are they willing to underwrite any and all losses attendant to such a leak? Is there enough money in the government to cover the potential losses?


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
joemikeb #39826 04/08/16 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Is there enough money in the government to cover potential losses?

The last I heard, they were broke. shocked

Re: Why Tim Cook Won't back Down
slolerner #39883 04/11/16 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: slolerner
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Is there enough money in the government to cover potential losses?

The last I heard, they were broke. shocked

Just like any irresponsible spender, they're not worried, they have credit cards. (that's us)


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Re: And now for the story behind the news
tacit #39931 04/14/16 09:16 PM
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So it turns out there was, as suspected, nothing interesting on that iPhone:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/14/nothing_useful_on_farook_iphone/

FBI has some egg on face over this.


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Re: And now for the story behind the news
tacit #39933 04/15/16 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: The Register.com
It also claims that the method only works for a "narrow slice" of phones – implying that it only works with an iPhone 5C running iOS 9 – and continues to pursue Apple in court over different phones running different operating system versions.

It ain't over 'till it's over, and not anytime soon...

Re: And now for the story behind the news
slolerner #40023 04/23/16 11:54 AM
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Jon

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Re: And now for the story behind the news
jchuzi #40038 04/24/16 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: jchuzi
And it continues to get more interesting….

And, it appears extraction of data from phones does not always get a "no" answer as happened in a Canadian murder case.

Last edited by ryck; 04/24/16 01:40 PM.

ryck

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