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#38536 - 01/30/16 04:27 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: artie505
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?


While that may be OK, not sure if I would do that. I have TechTool Pro, and whenever I run any of its' tasks (as part of my weekly disk cleanup/maintenance/repair processing, along with backing up via SuperDuper!), I just leave it alone. (I am actually performing such tasks on my two Macs at the same time). It has always been my belief (not sure if this has been stated anywhere else) that whenever one performs disk maintenance tasks and backups, nothing else should be running on the machine.

However, looking at TechTool forums about this, it is not explicitly stated that one cannot be using their machine while a Surface Scan is running. But, I still will only do it (plus the other TechTool tasks) while the machine is "quiet".

The surface scans for my Macs take less than 30 minutes, due to the size of the drive: 256 Gig SSD on my MacMini, and 250 gig SSD on my MacBool Air. I somewhat recently did a surface scan on one of my external, 7200 rpm, 1 TB dives, and I let it run overnight.

I'm going to launch it soon, and have TechTool do a surface scan on one of my external drives (my wife and I are going out). I'll let it run overnight.


Edited by honestone (01/30/16 06:22 PM)
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
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#38539 - 01/30/16 10:48 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: honestone]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
OK, I just finished the Surface Scan of one of my external, 1 TB, 7200 rpm drives, and it is fine Took about 4 hours to complete. I am going to do the other one soon.

I suspect that because it spins at 7200 rpm, and that the connection to my Mac Mini is via Firewire 800, that helps to speed up the process.
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38540 - 01/31/16 02:43 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: honestone]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: honestone
[quote=artie505]
The surface scans for my Macs take less than 30 minutes, due to the size of the drive: 256 Gig SSD on my MacMini, and 250 gig SSD on my MacBool Air.
As a point of information, is a surface scan relevant to a SSD? SSDs don't have moving parts to scan.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#38541 - 01/31/16 04:10 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Here's MMT3's take on the subject.
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#38542 - 01/31/16 05:12 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Thanks!
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#38543 - 01/31/16 09:35 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: artie505
Here's MMT3's take on the subject.


Note that the information on that link is somewhat "old" (2013), but maybe still applicable. I have the latest version of TechTool Pro (V8.0.3), and I still use TechTool Pro to do a surface scan of my SSDs. I also use it to perform most of its other useful tasks. About the only thing that is not applicable to SSDs is Volume Optimization.

Here is a more recent "take" on this, along with some other features of TechTool Pro (all in relation to TechTool Pro V8.0.3):

http://www.micromat.com/forum-100002/search?q=Surface%20Scan%20with%20SSD&childforums=1
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38546 - 01/31/16 01:36 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?

Given that the surface scanning tools I use, TechTool Pro 8, Drive Genius 4, and SoftRAID 5 all dismount the drive (or array) that is being scanned the answer would be NO. You might be able to work from another boot drive but the surface scan utilities typically use 100% of all four cores in my Mac mini as well as max out the disk I/O channel response time would be glacial.


Edited by joemikeb (01/31/16 01:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Remembered the dismount
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#38549 - 01/31/16 02:01 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that I've run scans with V1's "dd" command and worked at the same time with no perceptible effect, bad or otherwise...not even any slowdowns as I recall, but I'm also sure that your always sage advise is the wise way to go.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#38550 - 01/31/16 02:50 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?

Given that the surface scanning tools I use, TechTool Pro 8, Drive Genius 4, and SoftRAID 5 all dismount the drive (or array) that is being scanned the answer would be NO. You might be able to work from another boot drive but the surface scan utilities typically use 100% of all four cores in my Mac mini as well as max out the disk I/O channel response time would be glacial.


That is what I would also expect. And, even if one could, why jeopardize/interfere with the surface scan? One would naturally assume that the purpose of a surface scan is to find bad blocks, and such an investigation needs to be done under stable circumstances.
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38554 - 01/31/16 11:14 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?

Given that the surface scanning tools I use, TechTool Pro 8, Drive Genius 4, and SoftRAID 5 all dismount the drive (or array) that is being scanned the answer would be NO. You might be able to work from another boot drive but the surface scan utilities typically use 100% of all four cores in my Mac mini as well as max out the disk I/O channel response time would be glacial.

I installed TechTool Pro 6 for a brief experiment and found that even though my SSD and boot volume were unmounted during the few minutes I allowed it to run I was still able to multi-task with no noticeable system slowdown. (The scan used an average of about 25% of each of my deuced Mac(hina)'s 4 cores.)


Edited by artie505 (01/31/16 11:48 PM)
Edit Reason: Better word
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#38556 - 02/01/16 12:16 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?

Given that the surface scanning tools I use, TechTool Pro 8, Drive Genius 4, and SoftRAID 5 all dismount the drive (or array) that is being scanned the answer would be NO. You might be able to work from another boot drive but the surface scan utilities typically use 100% of all four cores in my Mac mini as well as max out the disk I/O channel response time would be glacial.

I installed TechTool Pro 6 for a brief experiment and found that even though my SSD and boot volume were unmounted during the few minutes I allowed it to run I was still able to multi-task with no noticeable system slowdown. (The scan used an average of about 25% of each of my deuced Mac(hina)'s 4 cores.)


I just ran it, V8.0.3, on my MacBook Air, and it took up more than 60% of its two cores. But, even if I tried to do something else (did not want to risk it), I would not want to write anything to the SSD while the scan is going on. That just seems counter productive to the purpose of the scan.

Also, one should be able to spare using their machine for some time. Scans of SSDs will be faster (25 minutes in my case, for a 256 gig SSD), and as I mentioned above, my 1 TB, 7200 rpm external f\drive, via a Firewire 800 connection, took 4 hours (also on the other 1 TB, 7200 rpm drive). Such scans can be done overnight.
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38557 - 02/01/16 02:43 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie
I installed TechTool Pro 6 for a brief experiment and found that even though my SSD and boot volume were unmounted during the few minutes I allowed it to run I was still able to multi-task with no noticeable system slowdown. (The scan used an average of about 25% of each of my deuced Mac(hina)'s 4 cores.)

I'm going to change that to I've got no idea whether anything was unmounted.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#38561 - 02/01/16 07:26 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: deniro
I was reading the logs in Console.

One message was "Can’t create kept cache under / - owner not root." I googled that and someone suggested typing in Terminal: "sudo chown root:admin /". So I did and got the response:

"WARNING: Improper use of the sudo command could lead to data loss or the deletion of important system files. Please double-check your
typing when using sudo. Type "man sudo" for more information. To proceed, enter your password, or type Ctrl-C to abort."

So I entered my password and got "sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700"


Taking a second look at your problem, the command you were trying in the second part is to fix a permissions problem, which itself has a permissions problem. So doing a permissions repair on that drive is really looking like a good idea right now. Did you try that?
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#38565 - 02/01/16 08:55 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
Everything seems to be working fine since I deleted that second user account.
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OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

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#38566 - 02/01/16 09:57 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
I just posed a lengthy question on Micromat about Surface Scans in general, and also specific to TechTool Pro 8.0.3. I suspect I'll have the answer soon, and I'll post it here.

As part of that, there are of course a number of factors to consider regarding the speed of the scan (I also mentioned all of these in the post):

1. SSD versus traditional hard drives.

2. Internal bus speeds.

3. External connectivity (USB 2.0, USB 3.0, Firewire 400, Firewire 800, and Thunderbolt)

4. Amount of free space on a volume.
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38569 - 02/01/16 11:06 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: deniro
I was reading the logs in Console.

One message was "Can’t create kept cache under / - owner not root." I googled that and someone suggested typing in Terminal: "sudo chown root:admin /". So I did and got the response:

"WARNING: Improper use of the sudo command could lead to data loss or the deletion of important system files. Please double-check your
typing when using sudo. Type "man sudo" for more information. To proceed, enter your password, or type Ctrl-C to abort."

So I entered my password and got "sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700"


Taking a second look at your problem, the command you were trying in the second part is to fix a permissions problem, which itself has a permissions problem. So doing a permissions repair on that drive is really looking like a good idea right now. Did you try that?


For Repairing Permissions, instead of using either Disk Utility (as long as it is not the version with El Capitan), or using Terminal, you can download the excellent freeware program Onyx from here:

http://www.titanium.free.fr/onyx.html

Make sure you get the correct version for the OS you are using. That venerable product has been around a number of years, is rock solid, and has had numerous, positive reviews. I have been using it for so long, that I depend upon it (along with TechTool Pro and SuperDuper!). I typically need to run the Repair Permissions task at least twice for each of my Macs, even on a weekly basis. The software has some other useful tasks that should be used.


Edited by honestone (02/01/16 11:06 AM)
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38574 - 02/01/16 06:51 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: honestone]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
OK, here is what Micromat said:

"Thanks for your kind comments.

The Surface Scan reads raw data (blocks) from an entire device, from the first block to the last. It does not read files. Its operation is not affected by the partition map scheme or the types of volumes on the drive. The drive does not even have to have a partition map or any volumes on it. Think of a tone arm on a phonograph playing a record from the first groove to the runout groove, and you will have a useful, though not perfect analogy.

If other processes are making use of the drive or device for reading or writing while the Surface Scan is in progress, the scan will take more time, but it will in no way be less accurate. The operating system handles requests for reading and writing from devices, and puts them into a queue. The requests get executed in an orderly fashion.

The amount of free space has absolutely no effect on the time it takes to read every block on the device. The Surface Scan does not distinguish blocks that belong to files from blocks that do not. It just reads blocks, to make sure they can be read.

The faster the drive and the bus, the faster the scan will go. One would expect most of the reading to be sequential."

So, it looks like it is OK (and safe?) to be doing other tasks while a Surface Scan is going on. But, note that the Surface Scan will slow down some. And as others have pointed out, using other tasks will be somewhat slow also.

I suspected the amount of free space has nothing to do with a Surface Scan, and Micromat confirmed it.

And, as I suspected the speed of the Surface Scan depends upon the speed of the drive, the type of connectivity, the bus speed, etc.

Myself, I will still let Surface Scans run while nothing else is going on with either of my Macs.


Edited by honestone (02/01/16 08:38 PM)
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#38584 - 02/02/16 01:26 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: honestone]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I wondered if anyone could compare disk scan and repair on Tech Tool et. al. versus Speed Tools. The latter is only 29.95. I have an OEM version that I can upgrade.

http://www.speedtools.com/STU3.html
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

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#38586 - 02/02/16 02:06 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Well, it was last updated on 10-22-2013 with this comment:

Originally Posted By: MacUpdate
Adds complete OS X 10.9 Mavericks compatibility.

And in addition to it's not being up to date, well...you can judge it's reviews for yourself.

I wouldn't touch it!

Edit: I just took a look at their website, and in addition to all else, you may be subject to an upgrade fee if they ever release an El Cap compatible version.

Edit 2: Oops! I just remembered that you're still running Snowy, but that doesn't change my opinion.


Edited by artie505 (02/02/16 04:43 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#38589 - 02/02/16 02:52 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: deniro
I wondered if anyone could compare disk scan and repair on Tech Tool et. al. versus Speed Tools. The latter is only 29.95. I have an OEM version that I can upgrade.

http://www.speedtools.com/STU3.html


Micromat just had a special of $39.95 over the holidays for TechTool Pro. From what II remember, they always do that every year.

Also, sometimes TechTool Pro is part of those Mac "bundles" that appear from time to time. They are usually advertised on either www.macnn.com, or www.macupdate.com.

From what I have seen, the 3 top commercial, well reviewed, and solid Disk Maintenance/Utility programs are Disk Warrior, TechTool Pro, and Drive Genius. Onyx can also do some useful tasks, but no where as extensive as any of the 3 products I mentioned above.


Edited by honestone (02/02/16 10:33 PM)
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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