An open community 
of Macintosh users,
for Macintosh users.

FineTunedMac Dashboard widget now available! Download Here

Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#38431 - 01/26/16 04:15 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb


TechTool Pro 8 shows 23 different SMART parameters reported by the HDD portion of the Fusion drive on my Mac mini and 10
For my information, what does TTP report for the HDD portion of your fusion drive? I would like to see how it compares with mine.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

Top
#38433 - 01/26/16 04:35 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
  • Raw read data rate
  • thourghput performance
  • Spin up time
  • start/stop count
  • reallocated sectors count *
  • seek error rate
  • seel tome performance
  • power on hours
  • Spin up retry count
  • Drivepoercycle count
  • unknown attributes**
  • G-sense error rate
  • Power on retract count
  • Load/unload cycle count
  • internal temperature
  • Hardware ECC Recovered
  • Reallocation Error Count *
  • Current pending sector count
  • uncorrectable sector count
  • Ultra DMA CRC error count
  • Load/unload retry count
  • Free fall protection
* values I would put a lot of weight on.
** There are often parameters reported that are proprietary and otherwise unknown
_________________________
joemikeb • moderator

Top
#38437 - 01/27/16 02:38 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Thanks, Joe. The questionable value in my readout is Temperature Changes. Internal Temperature appears to be perfect.

You didn't list Temperature Changes. Is that because you don't have it in the parameters or is it an omission?
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

Top
#38443 - 01/27/16 06:26 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: jchuzi]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
Startup is really getting long.

If I buy Tech Tool, that's $100. If I find out the drive is failing, then I have to pay the addidtional cost of the drive. If I pay someone like Best Buy to install it, there's that cost. I looked into replacing the drive myself, on web sites and on YouTube, but it looks like a bear to do. I don't think I'm up for that. Lots of potential for disaster.
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#38446 - 01/27/16 09:16 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I wouldn't install a drive either. I saw a video about it at OWC and decided that that's something I wouldn't attempt. Of course, you don't know for certain that the drive is the issue. Still, TTP is not a bad investment. You'll be able to use it even if you get another computer.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

Top
#38453 - 01/27/16 11:17 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Well, since you haven't got an appropriate utility, here's a Terminal command that will run a surface scan for you...

Code:
sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk0 of=/dev/null conv=noerror

Copy and paste that into /Applications/Utilities/Terminal, hit return, enter your admin password at the prompt (it won't appear on-screen), and let 'er rip, but be prepared to wait, with how long depending on the specifics of your iMac.

If you don't understand your results, post them here and we'll help you out.

You can get some insight into the command and surface scans in general here.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38466 - 01/28/16 05:11 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
SMART basically does two things. First, it tracks various parameters over the lifetime of the drive. Hours spun up, read failures, temperature extremes, head seeks, sector remaps, head recalibration, all sorts of things. There are a standard set of parameters, and every drive also adds some additional proprietary values to track as well. Second, each of those parameters can have a max or min allowable value. Temperature for example, usually has an upper limit, and if the drive ever experiences a temperature at/above that, that parameter is permanently marked as a failure. If <i>any</i> parameter has gone into failure mode, the entire SMART condition of the drive changes from PASS to FAILING. This is a one-way trip, there's no user-accessible way to change parameter values.

The problem I have with this is a lot of people seem to think that if SMART is passing, the drive's fine. But that's not what it means. It means the drive hasn't gotten bad enough to flag as failing yet. It may still have problems, some of which are clear indicators of impending doom for your data. I've done data recovery on <i>clearly failing<i> drives dozens of times, while SMART was passing the entire time. I've watched it change from PASS to FAIL during recovery numerous times. I've seen apps reporting disk IO errors while SMART remained in PASS condition. I've watched drives die on the table during recovery, with PASS being their dying breath. So I have very little respect for SMART, it's a bit of an oxymoron to its acronym.

The bottom line is that SMART can only do one thing, tell you when it's confident that the drive is dying or dead. It says <i>nothing</i> authoritative for the condition of the drive. If it says FAILING, you can be pretty certain it's failing. If it says PASS, you may as well ignore that, because it is of very little value, only saying "we're NOT absolutely sure the drive is bad". SMART is like asking your mechanic to look over your car and report its condition, and the mechanic tells you "Right now it appears to be running ok." <b>Not</b> very helpful. And certainly shouldn't inspire confidence in either the car <i>or</i> the mechanic. You want to know if it's about to kick the bucket, or is unsafe for a road trip, not whether the engine is currently on fire.

The only useful metric I've found is software that actively tests the performance of the drive. I think techtool has an option for that. My surface scan script and watchdrives script do exactly that. They've frequently identified failing drives that were passing SMART. They're also usable on drives connected on ports that don't support SMART polling, such as drives attached via firewire or USB.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

Top
#38468 - 01/28/16 06:46 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
So, V1, maybe you can answer my question above, in post #38437. Remember, this is the HDD portion of a fusion drive. The parameters have not changed since the drive was new (I looked a report from April, 2015).
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

Top
#38469 - 01/28/16 07:20 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: jchuzi]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I got this:

^C410165+0 records in
410165+0 records out
210004480 bytes transferred in 56.621826 secs (3708896 bytes/sec)
Macintosh:~ myname$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk0 of=/dev/null conv=noerror
sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#38474 - 01/28/16 12:03 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: deniro
I got this:

^C410165+0 records in
410165+0 records out
210004480 bytes transferred in 56.621826 secs (3708896 bytes/sec)
Macintosh:~ myname$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk0 of=/dev/null conv=noerror
sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700
(Emphasis added)

Hmmm... I dunno what happened there.

^C terminated the process at about 210 MB...long before it ran its course. Did you do that yourself? (160 x 1,073,741,824 = 171,798,691,840...should be the final bytes transferred number for a 160 GB HDD.)

And the part I've highlighted in red is completely new to me.

But insofar as the scan ran it found no bad blocks.

Sorry, but this calls for an expert...not me. wink
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38485 - 01/28/16 04:31 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I didn't stop it. I'm not sure it ran at all, or for very long. There was no indication that it was running.
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#38486 - 01/28/16 04:56 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
You don't see any indication that it's running unless it hits a bad block (Edit:) or completes its run.

But "210004480 bytes transferred in 56.621826 secs (3708896 bytes/sec)" tells you that it ran for just under a minute before something aborted it.

Google turns up some results for "/var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700", but I'm not equipped to evaluate their usefulness.

At this point you need a UNIX guy to kick in.

Edit: I wonder why the command ran for a minute before spitting out an error...didn't do it immediately?


Edited by artie505 (01/29/16 12:46 AM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38492 - 01/29/16 12:38 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Any time a drive encounters a bad block the firmware on the drive automatically remaps that block to an available spare sector on the drive. That happens in the normal course of writing to the drive. The critical factor in a surface scan is the discovery of NEW bad blocks which by definition would be data blocks that have gone bad since they were last written to.

1. And if there are no spares, I assume that OS X spits out an I/O error?

2. A surface scan also discovers bad blocks that have never been written to, which underscores the wisdom of both running an immediate scan on a new drive as a benchmark for future scans and never zeroing all data (which maps out bad blocks) before running a discovery scan.

Edit: So in the sense of case 2, a "new bad block" would be one that has never been written to but has gone bad since it was last scanned.


Edited by artie505 (01/29/16 05:48 AM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38503 - 01/29/16 05:23 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artie505
Google turns up some results for "/var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700", but I'm not equipped to evaluate their usefulness.

At this point you need a UNIX guy to kick in.


You could try a permissions repair. SUDO is a juicy target for someone trying to hack the computer, as it's the mechanism by which processes elevate their privileges. So if it detects any abnormalities in any of the associated files, it will refuse to run. In this case it looks like it thinks the SUDO application itself is currently modifiable by anyone. Naturally it doesn't like that, so it's not going to run, because it may have been modified to allow someone access.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

Top
#38505 - 01/29/16 06:23 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Edit: So in the sense of case 2, a "new bad block" would be one that has never been written to but has gone bad since it was last scanned.

A surface scan
  1. copies the data in the target blocks
  2. writes a standard pattern(s) to that data block,
  3. reads the block
  4. compares what is read to what was written.
  5. If they match it goes to step 7 .
  6. Else the drive firmware will tray severe attempts to write and read before mapping the current block to a spare.
  7. then it writes the original data to whatever block is mapped to that address
So if there was a previous scan, then every data block has been written to and any new bad blocks discovered will be NEW bad blocks.

Now do you see why a full surface scan is so time consuming?
_________________________
joemikeb • moderator

Top
#38510 - 01/29/16 08:36 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
btw mike that's referred to as a "destructive surface scan" because it writes. Many surface scans, including my script, are non-destructive and do not test write operations. This roughly cuts scan time in half. Some of the testing tools have a check box you can tick to turn on destructive write testing.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

Top
#38511 - 01/29/16 09:05 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I was reading the logs in Console.

One message was "Can’t create kept cache under / - owner not root." I googled that and someone suggested typing in Terminal: "sudo chown root:admin /". So I did and got the response:

"WARNING: Improper use of the sudo command could lead to data loss or the deletion of important system files. Please double-check your
typing when using sudo. Type "man sudo" for more information. To proceed, enter your password, or type Ctrl-C to abort."

So I entered my password and got "sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700"
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#38512 - 01/29/16 09:25 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
….that's referred to as a "destructive surface scan" because it writes.

Where there's a choice, I imagine the name would scare any but the most stout-hearted from using the option.


Edited by ryck (01/29/16 09:26 AM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
Carbon Copy Clone on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

Top
#38513 - 01/29/16 09:54 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: ryck]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
I've done a lot of things now, which obviously makes it tougher to know what worked.

I'm sure of one thing, that after I deleted my second account/guest account, restart and shutdown changed dramatically and are now instantaneous. Startup is somewhat faster, but still slow. I'm waiting to see if this is normal slow or abnormal slow.

Other things I did:
  • Repaired permissions with Disk Utility and then Onyx.
  • Terminal seems to work now. Console was giving me messages about "Failed to count the number of files in System/Library/StartupItems: no such file or directory." So I googled that problem and, based on advice, typed "cd /System/Library" and then "sudo mkdir StartupItems" and then my password.
  • Disabled Login Items atext and Clip Menu.
  • Deleted Logitech mouse software and replaced with demo of USB Overdrive.
  • Re-installed FinderPop. I suspect this did nothing, though I may switch to an older version.
  • Disconnected backup Firewire drive, which for many months I've left plugged in, turning it on only when I'm about to backup with SuperDuper.
  • Disconnected DAC, which I've been using for about five days, turning it on only when I use it.
I should add that the slow restart and shutdown remained even after I disabled login items, deleted the Logitech software, and repaired permissions. Those obvious fixes weren't the solution. ETA: I suspect also that little was gained by unplugging the Firewire drive and the DAC.



Edited by deniro (01/29/16 09:56 AM)
_________________________
OS X 10.11.6
iMac 21.5", Mid 2011
2.8 GHz Intel Core i7, 24 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6770M
Using Apple computers since 1980

Top
#38519 - 01/29/16 12:09 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: ryck]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
….that's referred to as a "destructive surface scan" because it writes.

Where there's a choice, I imagine the name would scare any but the most stout-hearted from using the option.


Seeing as most people wouldn't expect a "test" to erase all their data, the scare is justified.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

Top
#38526 - 01/30/16 01:21 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Now do you see why a full surface scan is so time consuming?

Yep, thanks. smile

Quote:
So if there was a previous scan, then every data block has been written to....

Somehow it never registered on me that a scan actually wrote to a drive. crazy
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38527 - 01/30/16 01:26 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: deniro
I was reading the logs in Console.

One message was "Can’t create kept cache under / - owner not root." I googled that and someone suggested typing in Terminal: "sudo chown root:admin /". So I did and got the response:

"WARNING: Improper use of the sudo command could lead to data loss or the deletion of important system files. Please double-check your
typing when using sudo. Type "man sudo" for more information. To proceed, enter your password, or type Ctrl-C to abort."

So I entered my password and got "sudo: /var/db/sudo writable by non-owner (040707), should be mode 0700"

You ran into the same roadblock as you ran into with the scan command, i.e. it calls for sudo, and you've got a problem with your (quoting V1) sudo application.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38528 - 01/30/16 01:39 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: deniro]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: deniro
I've done a lot of things now, which obviously makes it tougher to know what worked.

I'm sure of one thing, that after I deleted my second account/guest account, restart and shutdown changed dramatically and are now instantaneous. Startup is somewhat faster, but still slow. I'm waiting to see if this is normal slow or abnormal slow.

Other things I did:
  • Repaired permissions with Disk Utility and then Onyx.
  • Terminal seems to work now. Console was giving me messages about "Failed to count the number of files in System/Library/StartupItems: no such file or directory." So I googled that problem and, based on advice, typed "cd /System/Library" and then "sudo mkdir StartupItems" and then my password.
  • Disabled Login Items atext and Clip Menu.
  • Deleted Logitech mouse software and replaced with demo of USB Overdrive.
  • Re-installed FinderPop. I suspect this did nothing, though I may switch to an older version.
  • Disconnected backup Firewire drive, which for many months I've left plugged in, turning it on only when I'm about to backup with SuperDuper.
  • Disconnected DAC, which I've been using for about five days, turning it on only when I use it.
I should add that the slow restart and shutdown remained even after I disabled login items, deleted the Logitech software, and repaired permissions. Those obvious fixes weren't the solution. ETA: I suspect also that little was gained by unplugging the Firewire drive and the DAC.

I dunno... I guess your guest account somehow messed with sudo and deleting it cleared up the issue.

Just to play it completely safe I'll suggest that you now boot from your install disc or another volume and run Repair Disk from Disk Utility, and follow that with a rerun of the scan command (which should take about 80 800 minutes). (I guess it's best to let it run while you're out or sleeping; I'm not sure if you can work while it's running.)

I'm happy to hear that things are at least better.


Edited by artie505 (01/30/16 06:08 AM)
Edit Reason: Oops!
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
#38529 - 01/30/16 07:33 AM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: Virtual1]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
….that's referred to as a "destructive surface scan" because it writes.

Where there's a choice, I imagine the name would scare any but the most stout-hearted from using the option.


Seeing as most people wouldn't expect a "test" to erase all their data, the scare is justified.

There is a distinct advantage to the "destructive" surface scan. The scan has no way of knowing if the data stored in any given data block is what was originally written to that block other than by a parity check (and parity checking is a whole new subject). That means the data in that block may have changed or become corrupted due to the inability of the magnetic media to hold the data correctly. So a non-destructive surface scan can report a sector as good when actually it is failing or has failed.

I don't know the exact algorithm used by TTP and others for their "destructive" surface scans. It is a proprietary algorithm and from personal experience over the years has evolved greatly both in safety and in speed. I do know you can pull the power while TTP is performing a surface scan and no data will be lost, so while it is technically "destructive" it is a very tightly controlled destruction and reconstruction process.
_________________________
joemikeb • moderator

Top
#38531 - 01/30/16 12:00 PM Re: Slow startup, slow shutdown [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
For deniro's benefit, as far as I know you can run a surface scan while you're working.

Is that correct?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  alternaut, dianne, MacManiac