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#37640 - 12/05/15 04:14 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I certainly look forward to that! cool
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#37641 - 12/05/15 06:11 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: grelber
According to the CBC, this New York Times editorial (End the Gun Epidemic in America) appeared on the front page of today's printed edition — for the first time since 1920!

And one of the Republican Presidential candidate hopefuls, Governor Chris Christie, described the editorial as "typical Liberal claptrap".

Hmmmm....his response sounds to me like typical Republican claptrap.
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#37642 - 12/05/15 06:15 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: dkmarsh]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Of course, a year from now, the same will likely be true of the current GOP Presidential front runner.

Actually, I'm looking forward to the upcoming Republican debates. I'm certain that, if the party is going to maintain the image projected thus far, a tiny car is going to drive out onto the stage and the candidates will get out one-by-one, wearing very long shoes and round red noses.


Edited by ryck (12/05/15 06:17 PM)
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#37643 - 12/05/15 11:56 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: dkmarsh]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Of course, a year from now, the same will likely be true of the current GOP Presidential front runner.

Actually, a year from there won't be anyone running, except away, since the election will have come and gone over a month earlier.

A more likely scenario? Tromp [sic] will likely have gotten his wish and the space between the 49th parallel and the Rio Bravo will have become a no man's land (certainly not a DMZ); 300+ million bystanders will have become global pariahs.

The only problem will be what to do with Alaska (49th state).
A nice gesture would be to make Seward's Folly a parting gift back to Russia, leaving behind a plaque commemorating the ancient land bridge's contribution to human pollution of the western hemisphere. (Anybody care to calculate what the original purchase price of ca $7 million might be in today's dollars?)

Hawai'i won't be an issue, given "global warming" and the predicted multi-meter increase in ocean level. It might be entertaining to watch the polluted waters of the Pacific creep up the sides of Mauna Loa and the last survivors pleading, "Don't nobody make a wave."[*]
[* To recycle/extend the punchline from a very old joke that many of the OFs who troll this forum might remember from their adolescence ... or not.]

By the bye, that front page editorial (End the Gun Epidemic in America) is now the most frequently viewed/emailed/tweeted/Facebook-shared NYT article.

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#37645 - 12/06/15 06:12 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Of course, a year from now, the same will likely be true of the current GOP Presidential front runner.

Originally Posted By: grelber
A more likely scenario? Tromp [sic] will likely have gotten his wish and the space between the 49th parallel and the Rio Bravo will have become a no man's land...

Or...........

Trump may be gone long before then. I don't think he ever wanted to be President, and his position in the polls is an unwanted turn of events in his real plan....which was simply to get into the race long enough to enhance his "brand".

For a selfish egotist like Trump, being President just doesn't make sense.

Right now his wealth gives him all sorts of freedoms. He can board his private plane or one of his yachts and head out to one of his many palatial residences, or anywhere else, to do whatever he wants. In any of his business meetings he gets to say "We're doing it my way. If you don't like it, you're fired".

If Trump became President, all that would go away.

He would find (as he already knows) that there are all sorts of blocks to his being able to do whatever he wants when he wants, or simply to dictate his wishes. He would be faced with doing something he finds loathesome - seeking consensus and making political compromises. In order to make those changes in his usual modus operandi, Trump would have to be a person sincerely interested in someone other than himself. He is not.

Now that his plan (hang around long enough to enhance his "brand") has back-fired, Trump has to extricate himself. How better than to make more and more outrageous statements so that the party will be forced to turf him? It's perfect.

As he wipes his brow with a loud "whew!", he gets to say: "Well, I could have fixed everything but you didn't want me". And, he has provided all the funding for his "campaign" so he isn't beholden to any PAC or other contributors.

Mission accomplished: Trump's "brand" gains.


Edited by ryck (12/06/15 06:13 AM)
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#37646 - 12/06/15 06:26 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Ryck, you're so logical. Too bad that Mr. Trump doesn't share that trait. So, he may REALLY want to be president. Of course, as you implied, that would be a comedown in terms of his power (whatever that may be).
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#37647 - 12/06/15 06:34 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: grelber
A more likely scenario? Tromp [sic] will likely have gotten his wish and the space between the 49th parallel and the Rio Bravo will have become a no man's land...

Or...........
Trump may be gone long before then. ...
For a selfish egotist like Trump, being President just doesn't make sense. ...
If Trump became President, all that would go away. ...
Mission accomplished: Trump's "brand" gains.

I don't disagree with your main thesis, but I also didn't mean to suggest that Tromp would become president, only that his push for a "wall" to keep out undesirables might take the shape of the entire lower 48.
However, there have been boobs elected to the office and, given the current mentality which seems prevalent in the US, stranger things could happen.

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#37651 - 12/07/15 05:00 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: ryck
[quote=jchuzi]"While the nation suffered through the shock of another bloody massacre, on Thursday every Senate Republican except Mark Kirk of Illinois voted against legislation to prevent people on the F.B.I.’s consolidated terrorist watchlist from purchasing guns or explosives."

Unfortunately, that statement is woefully short on details. Look at legislation like the Patriot Act that was drafted and passed on a kneejerk reaction just like this one. The final analysis found it included no effective oversight and proved to be a very invasive, disliked, and difficult to get rid of piece of legislation.

Typically, congress moves too slowly. Sometimes they actually move at a good pace. And then from time to time, they rush things way too fast. They do it to make it look like they're on top of something that they don't know anything more than "my party rep said to vote YES on this". Vultures sometimes use this opportunity to slip in some ugly pork because "nobody's going to vote against this bill, and they don't want to waste time trimming off the pork in committee".

Passing bad legislation is just as much of a problem as not passing good legislation. Until I read the teardown on what they passed, I'll reserve judgement on this holdout. He may have had some very good reason(s) to object to it. Congress is known for this.
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#37654 - 12/07/15 06:07 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: Virtual1]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Passing bad legislation is just as much of a problem as not passing good legislation. Until I read the teardown on what they passed, I'll reserve judgement on this holdout. He may have had some very good reason(s) to object to it. Congress is known for this.

I think you may have misunderstood. Mark Kirk of Illinois was the only Republican who wanted to prevent people on the FBI Terrorist Watchlist from acquiring weapons or explosives. The rest of them thought the status quo is just fine.

I believe this is the point the President has been making - if it's not safe for these people to board an aircraft, it can't be safe to allow them to buy guns and explosives. As he said in his speech yesterday: "Congress should act to make sure no one on a no-fly list is able to buy a gun. What could possibly be the argument for allowing a terrorist suspect to buy semiautomatic weapons?"


Edited by ryck (12/07/15 07:13 AM)
Edit Reason: Add quotation
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#37655 - 12/07/15 06:25 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: grelber]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: grelber
I don't disagree with your main thesis, but I also didn't mean to suggest that Tromp would become president, only that his push for a "wall" to keep out undesirables might take the shape of the entire lower 48.

We're in sync of that one. He's already suggested that a wall along the Canadian border might also be needed.
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#37656 - 12/07/15 06:38 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Ryck, you're so logical. Too bad that Mr. Trump doesn't share that trait. So, he may REALLY want to be president.

And current polls suggest that it could happen. However, I'm going to stick with my thought for now because he's become even more outrageous (read: panicky) by spouting easily disproven, totally fictitious stories.

But, just in case, are you dusting off your traveling bags?


Edited by ryck (12/07/15 06:39 AM)
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#37659 - 12/07/15 07:43 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: ryck
I think you may have misunderstood. Mark Kirk of Illinois was the only Republican who wanted to prevent people on the FBI Terrorist Watchlist from acquiring weapons or explosives. The rest of them thought the status quo is just fine.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" In the case of congressional-level legislation, things are so mired in politics and pork that you almost never get exactly what you ask for. You could declare martial law and that would be a wonderful way to keep weapons and explosives out of the hands of terrorists. But at much too high of a cost. With laws its particularly important to look at how a law is going to be exercised, exactly who it CAN be applied to (and not just "who we're intending on applying it to, this is a COMMON mistake), what oversight (if ANY?) there will be, and when (if EVER?) the law will expire. There are a few other major ones but these are the big three.

The reason I said "kneejerk reaction" earlier is because the rush to push through legislation to catch C, D, and J often casts an overly broad net that technically applies to B through L. When questioned on this, they almost universally say "well of course this law isn't meant to be applied to everyone, we trust the cops and the judges to only apply it to C/D/J even though technically they can apply it fully to B-L. Trust us." The problem with this approach is it is fundamentally flawed. Cops enforce the law, they are not supposed to interpret and selectively apply it. They expect the laws to be written accurately and concisely. Judges just make sure the process is fair, within the definition of the law, so if you're G, you're technically within B-L, and you're fair game. The only way to prevent abuse is to rule it out by writing a good law that carefully defines application to C, D, and J.

This is just one aspect of a good law / bad law. I mentioned oversight and expiration also, and these, if skipped in the drafting or done poorly/incompletely, can have just as damaging of effects.

Please don't support badly written laws just because they have good intentions. There are way too many examples of just how horribly wrong this can go. And in a country where power, politics, and money are driving forces, something that can be abused is virtually guaranteed TO be abused.
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#37660 - 12/07/15 07:59 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: ryck
And current polls suggest that it could happen. However, I'm going to stick with my thought for now because he's become even more outrageous (read: panicky) by spouting easily disproven, totally fictitious stories.

But, just in case, are you dusting off your traveling bags?

"The Donald" is a master practitioner of the big lie (if you tell a big enough lie often enough and loudly enough people will come to accept it as the truth) which was so artfully and successfully used by Adolph Hitler in Germany. "The Donald's" demonizing of Muslims is a virtual mirror image of Hitler's pogrom against the Jews. Just as in pre-WWII Germany it is a distraction from the failures/unwillingness of the government to effectively address pressing economic and social issues of the time.

Unfortunately since the other potential nominees have no real program of their own, when they see "The Donald" gaining traction with his outrageous statements they are all too willing to jump on the bandwagon with him. Negative politics have always been with us, but this campaign has turned into a battle of who can be the most negative and outrageous.

I could go on but it would leave me with a sour stomach and bad attitude for the rest of the day. On 911 I promised myself I would not permit the terrorists to make me fearful and I am trying mightily to make the same promise about the current crop of presidential candidates. Sadly I am far more successful not fearing the terrorists than I am the politicians.
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#37661 - 12/07/15 08:40 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
"The Donald" is a master practitioner of the big lie (if you tell a big enough lie often enough and loudly enough people will come to accept it as the truth) which was so artfully and successfully used by Adolph Hitler in Germany.

As previously used by the British in WWI and others much before that. The quote "In war, truth is the first casualty" was from a Greek dramatist Aeschylus about 500 BC.

World War I was so gruesome that Britain had trouble getting people to enlist, so they embarked on a propaganda campaign alleging atrocities in Germany - which were subsequently proved false. However, the campaign proved to be very successful and was key in defeating Germany.

The Nazis recognized this and based their propaganda campaign on the British model of WWI.


Edited by ryck (12/07/15 08:49 AM)
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#37662 - 12/07/15 08:53 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I could go on but it would leave me with a sour stomach and bad attitude for the rest of the day.

Me too. The idea that the most powerful nation in history could be led by a bozo leads to stomach upset. Oh wait, it already has been….George Bush.
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#37664 - 12/07/15 01:11 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
"The Donald" is a master practitioner of the big lie (if you tell a big enough lie often enough and loudly enough people will come to accept it as the truth) which was so artfully and successfully used by Adolph Hitler in Germany. "The Donald's" demonizing of Muslims is a virtual mirror image of Hitler's pogrom against the Jews.

Originally Posted By: Voltaire
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Pendragon's sig, which I've long appreciated but am now beginning to fear.

Perhaps the best we can hope for is an independent run by Trump, who I don't think is at all likely to get the nomination, that will split the crackpot vote.
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#37668 - 12/07/15 03:31 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: ryck
Me too. The idea that the most powerful nation in history could be led by a bozo leads to stomach upset. Oh wait, it already has been….George Bush.

Which George Bush? 41 or 43? 41 is IMHO an honorable man and deserves kudos for his conduct of the first Gulf War. The mission was accomplished and then we got the H___ out. IMHO, 43 is nowhere near the same caliber as his father and rather than being leader he was used by others whom he unwisely trusted like Cheney and Rumsfeld.
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#37669 - 12/07/15 04:09 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: joemikeb]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: ryck
Me too. The idea that the most powerful nation in history could be led by a bozo leads to stomach upset.
Oh wait, it already has been….George Bush.

Which George Bush? 41 or 43?

George W…..hands down.


Edited by ryck (12/07/15 04:09 PM)
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#37670 - 12/07/15 04:15 PM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
When I was young, I was taught that anyone can become president. I'm beginning to believe it. Will Rogers
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#37675 - 12/08/15 05:26 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
I don't remember the source, or the exact quote, but it has a distinctly Mark Twain sound to it: "Any man capable of getting himself elected president is unfit for the position." Or something to that effect. I think there was another one on a similar vein: "If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve."
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#37676 - 12/08/15 05:36 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: Virtual1]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
For myself, I believe that the mere fact of wanting to be president should automatically disqualify the candidate.
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#37677 - 12/08/15 07:17 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: jchuzi]
Douglas Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Seattle, WA
Bingo, jchuzi. You win the prize. I've felt that exact sentiment for years now.

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#37679 - 12/08/15 07:54 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: Virtual1]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: William Tecumseh Sherman
I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected.
_________________________
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#37683 - 12/08/15 09:09 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: William Tecumseh Sherman
I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected.

I remember potential presidential candidates in my youth making the same declaration and I am certainly not THAT old.

I heard yesterday that Karl Rove (definitely NOT on my list of favorite politicians) has recently asserted the nation was better served when the presidential candidates were selected in a cigar smoke filled room at the party national conventions than it has been under today's primary system. It startles me to find I agreed with Karl Rove on anything, even the time of day, but I think he is absolutely correct in this assertion.

Today's primary system virtually guarantees only candidates on the extreme edges of the political spectrum will be nominated.
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#37685 - 12/08/15 09:28 AM Re: Our next president?!! [Re: Virtual1]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
I don't remember the source, or the exact quote, but it has a distinctly Mark Twain sound to it: "Any man capable of getting himself elected president is unfit for the position." Or something to that effect.


Perhaps Groucho Marx? He also said he would not want to belong to any organization that would have him as a member. grin
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