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#37230 - 11/17/15 03:55 AM external clone won't boot
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I use the latest version of SuperDuper to make a clone. The clone is located in a Mercury enclosure on a Hitachi DeskStar 2 TB drive. After upgrading from Yosemite to El Capitan, the clone will not boot (although this may be coincidental). I contacted Dave Nanian at Shirt Pocket (the developer of SuperDuper) and he has not seen this issue with El Capitan. He had me try the following (all unsuccessful):

1. Erase the clone and re-clone from scratch.
2. Run Smart Update from SuperDuper.

The clone did boot, once, after running Repair Disk via Disk Utility but I think that that was coincidence. Disk Warrior reports minor issues (incorrect root correction date and repair of a custom flag for ScamZapper) but I have not run DW on the clone after re-doing the clone.

I have the enclosure connected via Thunderbolt. I tried reconnecting via USB 3 but that was unsuccessful.

At this point, I think that the problem may lie with either the enclosure or the hard drive. I feel that the hard drive is unlikely as the source of the issue because it is checked daily by Check Mate, with no problems found (file structure test, SMART, surface scan). Is there any way to test the enclosure?

Any thoughts?

ADDENDUM: When attempting to boot fro the clone, the progress bar goes about half way, stops, and the computer spontaneously shuts down.


Edited by jchuzi (11/17/15 03:58 AM)
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Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37231 - 11/17/15 06:59 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I realize this is not helpful, but I too have had problems making bootable clones of El Capitan since OS X 10.11 beta 1 using either Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper. I have no clue why that may be happening. Since Time Machine started working again with OS X 10.11.2 beta 3 I haven't bothered to follow it up any further.
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#37233 - 11/17/15 08:42 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Any thoughts?

I am an earlier OS (10.8.5), but my Super Duper backup is also on a Hitachi drive in an OWC Mercury enclosure (320GB HGST Travelstar Z7K320 2.5-inch 7mm SATA), although I am connected by Firewire 800.

Your post got me to check how my Super Duper clone is working (SD 2.8 (v96)). Things did not go as I would have expected.

I shutdown and rebooted holding down the Option key. Instead of seeing my main drive icon and the SD clone icon, I had the main drive icon with another drive icon called 10.8.5 Recovery. I chose 10.8.5 Recovery.

This opened with a dialogue box offering four choices:

• Restore from Time Machine
• Reinstall OSX
• Get help online
• Disk Utility

Among the items on the menu bar was "Startup Disk". It offered either my main drive or the Super Duper clone. I chose the clone and it booted.

I then shutdown and rebooted with the Option key. This then gave me four startup disk icons:

• Main drive
• Recovery 10.8.5
• Super Duper clone
• Time Machine

Note: I have two Mercury enclosures (SD and Time Machine) but the TM enclosure is older (bought 2012). The SD enclosure was bought this year.

Update: I just checked "Startup Disk" in system preferences and it offers either the main drive or the SD clone.


Edited by ryck (11/17/15 08:49 AM)
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ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS Mojave 10.14.6
Canon MX710 Printer
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Carbon Copy Clone on 1TB LaCie USB-C
Carbon Copy Clone on 500GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro

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#37235 - 11/17/15 09:15 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: ryck]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The Recovery Drive you found is a feature added with the upgrade to OS X 10.8. The actual Recovery Drive is in a hidden volume/partition on the boot drive and performs the same functions previously found on the OS X Install Discs — when install discs were still available. By design, it does not appear as a bootable drive in System Preferences. Normally it is accessed by booting while holding down the ⌘R keys. If the Recovery Drive is damaged and your computer is connected to the internet it will boot the Recovery Drive from the internet.


Edited by joemikeb (11/17/15 09:22 AM)
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#37247 - 11/18/15 02:10 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I realize this is not helpful, but I too have had problems making bootable clones of El Capitan since OS X 10.11 beta 1 using either Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper. I have no clue why that may be happening. Since Time Machine started working again with OS X 10.11.2 beta 3 I haven't bothered to follow it up any further.
I may wait until 10.11.2 is released before trying to make a bootable clone. I neglected to mention that Dave Nanian also suggested trying to boot the clone in Safe Mode; this was also unsuccessful.

I took the liberty of sending Dave a link to this thread and also a link to Data Rescue One review: Harvest data from a failing hard drive, which has a reference to Apple's making it more difficult to set up a bootable partition in 10.11.

When I receive a reply from Dave, I'll post it, if it has any relevant information.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37251 - 11/18/15 05:32 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I realize this is not helpful, but I too have had problems making bootable clones of El Capitan since OS X 10.11 beta 1 using either Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper.

I'd love to know what causes this. I used to be able to use Rsync to make a complete copy of an OS from scratch, and it would boot fine. But as of about 10.6 or 10.7, this was no longer the case. Rsync backups would not boot, for no apparent reason. The fix was to use Ditto for the initial copy. Then the drive could be updated without problems with Rsync. So there's something very subtle that isn't getting copied correctly with Rsync. I'd bet that's what's causing these other apps difficulty too.

I spent a bit of time trying to find what it was, or at least where it was, but ran out of patience. Even a split-half search takes a long time when you're talking about 500,000 files.
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#37262 - 11/18/15 09:07 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: Virtual1]
freelance Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: London, UK
I have an internal drive with a clone of El Capitan made with the latest version of CCC. It boots fine.

I just made a clone from it to an external drive which I plugged into a USB2 port on the front of my Mac with a drive adapter cable. It worked fine.

I know the latest (paid for) version of CCC is the important thing. I've not used SuperDuper.
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Mac Pro dual-2.4 GHz, 10.13.6, 24 Gb RAM, 250 Gb Samsung EVO SSD/Velocity Solo PCIe card, 2x3Tb Seagate HD, 1x3Tb Hitachi HD, Dell 2408WFP; Canon PIXMA iX6550; CanoScan 8800F; MacBook Air 1.8 Ghz, 8 Gb RAM, 10.14.6, 256 Gb SSD; Vodafone Home Hub/BT Wi-Fi Extender.

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#37292 - 11/18/15 02:14 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: freelance]
Douglas Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Seattle, WA
I have a clone of El Capitan that boots just fine that I made with the latest version of SuperDuper.

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#37294 - 11/19/15 02:26 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Dave Nanian made the following suggestion: "Power off the Mac. Disconnect the external completely. (No other peripherals save for mouse and keyboard - no hubs, etc.) Hold down Option and get to the boot screen. Then, attach the drive directly to your Mac (what drive is this, by the way?) and try to start up from it." It didn't work.

For the record, I'm using an OWC Mercury Elite Pro Dual with two 2 TB Hitachi DeskStar drives, configured independently (one for the clone, the other for Time Machine). I may contact OWC to describe the problem. As far as I can tell, the problem lies with an incompatibility between the enclosure and El Capitan, since everything was fine in Yosemite.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37306 - 11/20/15 04:19 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: Douglas]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: Douglas
I have a clone of El Capitan that boots just fine that I made with the latest version of SuperDuper.


I have also been able to use the latest version of SuperDuper! to backup/clone both of my machines running OS 10.11.1 to external devices (I make two such backups/clones for each machine to two separate external drives). Each of those external drives have Seagate mechanisms, and I have been directly connecting via Firewire 800 to my late 2012 Mac Mini, and connecting from the Firewire ports to a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire 800 adapter for my mid 2013 13" MacBook Air. The clones boot up fine (although the bootup process is certainly no speed demon!).
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#37308 - 11/20/15 06:09 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: honestone]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Dave Nanian suggested that I put the cloned drive into a different enclosure and see what happens. I don't have an extra enclosure at the moment, but I will get one as soon as I have the time and try this.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37309 - 11/20/15 08:37 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I find this discussion ever so intriguing but utterly incomprehensible.
If necessary/advisable, I can post this in the "kindergarten" forum (New Users).
My only experience with external drives is the 1TB My Passport drive (with its own 'enclosure') which I use for Time Machine backup.

So:
• Why all these clones, bootable or not?
• What does an enclosure have to do with functionality?
• For that matter, what is an enclosure and why would it make a difference?
• What difference does a connection to an external drive have to do with anything?

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#37314 - 11/20/15 09:38 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I find this discussion ever so intriguing but utterly incomprehensible. [...] So:
• Why [....] ?

In a nutshell (and not exhaustive):

- (Bootable) clones are independent and complete backups identical to the original that can be used when the regular boot drive malfunctions. Clones are an option to preserve important data and (when bootable) to limit downtime to that of a restart. For obvious reasons, having such clones located on separate hardware increases their usefulness.

- An enclosure is a box housing (currently mostly) sATA-interfaced devices like HDs, optical drives etc., fitted with a power supply and an interface board for ports like USB, FW, Thunderbolt etc. Usually you purchase enclosure plus enclosed mechanism together as a single unit. You might also use an enclosure to house an internal drive you replaced with a larger one. As any hardware item, enclosures may harbor problems separate from the items they enclose.

- Connections/ports (USB, FW, Thunderbolt, cables etc.) matter because they are independent and independently fallible, in addition to having different specs and foibles. Physically, connection issues can be anywhere in the entire chain from computer (buses, ports, controlling hardware etc.) via connecting cables to peripheral hardware (enclosure, sATA device and associated controller boards).

Standard troubleshooting techniques may localize problems to any of the items discussed here, as is the case with the enclosure in this thread.
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#37318 - 11/20/15 10:07 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Merci ... although I would think that a standard TM backup would be more than sufficient for such purposes.
But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.

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#37321 - 11/20/15 12:09 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: grelber]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
The disadvantage of a Time Machine backup is you can't boot directly into it.

I keep a bootable clone of my laptop. If my internal hard drive fails, I do not need to do anything except plug in the clone and reboot. Instantly, I'm back to work again, running entirely off the clone.

If I have only a TM backup, things get a bit trickier. I have to reformat (or replace, if it is a hardware failure) the internal drive, boot from the recovery partition, then restore the backup. Last time I did this, it took about 3 hours and 20 minutes. I work a lot, I travel a lot, and there are times when i can't afford three hours' downtime because of a problem. A bootable clone solves the issue, and I can backup to the clone when I sleep.
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#37326 - 11/20/15 01:15 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: tacit]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
The main advantages of a backup/clone made with either SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner are:

1. One can boot from the clone, and be back in business right away.

2. Since some (most?) folks do not have a robust disk maintenance/repair program like Disk Warrior or Tech Tool Pro, they need to rely on Disk Utility for trying to do repairs. While one can boot to the Recovery Partition (assuming it got created) to access Disk Utility, it is much faster to boot to the clone, and run Disk Utility from there.

3. If one has any of those more robust programs, for them to be effective on one's internal drive, they need to be booted externally. Again, having them on a clone accomplishes that.

4. Finally, one can do 1) a complete Erase, Format, and if necessary, Partition the internal drive from the clone, and then either 2) do a restore of the clone to the internal drive, or 2) install a fresh version of the OS, and 3) use Migration Assistant to "migrate"/copy all the non-Apple stuff to the internal drive.

To me, it is much, much faster (and simpler) that trying to do that from a Time Machine backup.


Edited by honestone (11/20/15 01:23 PM)
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#37327 - 11/20/15 01:22 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: honestone]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Regarding my post above about my SuperDuper! backups to external drives with Seagate mechanisms, about 2 years ago, I removed the slow, 5400 rpm 1 TB Hitachi drive from my late 2012 Mac Mini, installed a 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro in its place, and installed the Hitachi drive inside a nice, slim external case. That slim case works real well for me when I am traveling, as I take my 13" MacBook Air with me (only has a 250 gig SSD inside it). For that Hitachi drive, I have two partitions on it. One of those is for making a backup/clone of the SSD on the Air, and the other partition contains movies, TV series, and some other miscellaneous. This morning, I went ahead and did a SuperDuper! backup/clone on the Air to that external partition, and after it was done, I was able to boot my MacBook Air from it (slow bootup, especially considering 1) the drive spins at only 5400 rpm, and 2) it is via a USB 3.0 connection. The Seagate backups I mentioned above are 1) on 7200 rpm Seagate drives, and 2) the connection is via Firewire 800).
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#37344 - 11/21/15 08:13 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: grelber]
Ira L Online


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: grelber
Merci ... although I would think that a standard TM backup would be more than sufficient for such purposes.
But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.


In addition, as someone posted somewhere on this site: count the number of backups you have (1 TM backup?), subtract 1 and that is the number of backups you really have.

Any piece of hardware can fail, but the chance of two or more failing simultaneously is much smaller. But then again, it is those small probabilities of which thrilling movies are made. smirk
_________________________
On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 27" iMacs, Macbook Air, macOS 10.14.x,; iPhones, iPods and iPads galore!

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#37378 - 11/23/15 04:58 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: Ira L]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: Ira L
Originally Posted By: grelber
Merci ... although I would think that a standard TM backup would be more than sufficient for such purposes.
But whatever gets you through the night, I suppose.


In addition, as someone posted somewhere on this site: count the number of backups you have (1 TM backup?), subtract 1 and that is the number of backups you really have.

Any piece of hardware can fail, but the chance of two or more failing simultaneously is much smaller. But then again, it is those small probabilities of which thrilling movies are made. smirk

One thing breaking is Murphy's bread n' butter. Two simultaneous failures means it's personal.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

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#37385 - 11/23/15 11:11 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: Ira L]
honestone Offline
Banned

Registered: 11/13/15
Loc: Seattle, WA (up in God's Count...
Originally Posted By: Ira L
[quote=grelber]
Any piece of hardware can fail, but the chance of two or more failing simultaneously is much smaller. But then again, it is those small probabilities of which thrilling movies are made. smirk


Well said, and one would think so! Still, even with backing up to two separate external drives, I still am somewhat concerned. I do as much maintenance on my devices as I can. And, for over 99% of the time, the only time my external drives are being used is when I do my once a week backups.
_________________________
Using Macs since 1984
Current Systems:
Mid 2013 13" MacBook Air with 251 gig Samsung SSD
Late 2012 Mac Mini with 256 gig Samsung 840 Pro SSD
Using OS 10.11.5 on both
Make SuperDuper! backups for both machines
Canon Multifunction Inkjet Printer

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#37548 - 12/02/15 04:09 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Dave Nanian suggested that I put the cloned drive into a different enclosure and see what happens. I don't have an extra enclosure at the moment, but I will get one as soon as I have the time and try this.
I tried another enclosure and a different hard drive. Cloning with SuperDuper was successful but the clone still would not boot. I should be receiving a SSD in a few days and I'll try that, but I can't imagine why it should make a difference.

One more thing to try, and I'll post results when I get around to it, is to use a different cloning app. I'll probably try Carbon Copy Cloner.

Comments, anyone?
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37549 - 12/02/15 04:28 PM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Have you ever sent your SD log to Nanian for examination?
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#37555 - 12/03/15 12:40 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Good idea, Artie. I just did it, so we'll see what he says.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#37556 - 12/03/15 12:57 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Another suggestion, Jon... Take a look at CCC's MacUpdate page; there are two posts (by the same poster) that deal with CCC/El Cap that sound like they extend to SD, although I've got no idea if they extend to your situation.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#37557 - 12/03/15 02:43 AM Re: external clone won't boot [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Thanks again, Artie. I don't think that that situation applies to me but you never know... At any rate, someone suggested (in another forum) trying Backup Pro. I may give that a shot as well. I'll post back after I have some results.

Things have been chaotic around here lately (wife's cataract surgery on both eyes, two weeks apart, innumerable medical appointments) so I'll experiment when I have a little breather. BTW, the surgery went well and she is very pleased.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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