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#35241 - 07/27/15 09:39 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I hadn't spotted "deprecated"!

Actually, I already have Java 6 installed so I don't need to redo it. I did, however, download the installer in case I need it when I upgrade to El Capitán. Maybe Java will survive the upgrade, maybe not. I say that because it didn't survive migration from Snow Leopard to Yosemite, so I had to install it.
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Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35242 - 07/27/15 09:48 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
Aside: Unless "deprecated" has assumed a technical sense (ie, jargon), it is wholly wrong/inappropriate in this context.

It has assumed a technical sense. In programming, labeling code as "deprecated" constitutes an announcement that said code will not be supported at some future point and that those relying on it (typically third-party developers) should make other arrangements (i.e. begin using more up-to-date code).
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#35243 - 07/27/15 11:41 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
I also take "depreciated" to mean "This is your warning to stop using this asap, because it's going to go away or break horribly at some undetermined point in the future. When that day comes, if you're still relying on it, you're gonna have a bad day, because we're absolutely not going to help you."
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#35246 - 07/27/15 12:30 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
It means that it is a version of Java that is currently unsupported by either Apple or Oracle and has well know vulnerabilities to exploits. The current supported and secure release is Java 8 build 51.

I found the legacy apps that were not recognizing the newer JRE (Java Runtime Environment) would recognize the JRE that comes in the Java Developers Kit on the Oracle site. Because of its known vulnerabilities to exploits I cannot recommend installing the JRE 6.

NOTE: Oracle has labeled Java 8 Build 51 a critical update. I suspect it patches a newly discovered vulnerability. Keeping Java and OS X up to date are the best protections against malware of all varieties.


Edited by joemikeb (07/27/15 12:39 PM)
Edit Reason: Add note
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#35247 - 07/27/15 12:42 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
and has well know vulnerabilities to exploits

Well if it's java (or flash for that matter) that's a given, isn't it?
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#35251 - 07/27/15 01:58 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
It means that it is a version of Java that is currently unsupported by either Apple or Oracle and has well know[n] vulnerabilities to exploits. The current supported and secure release is Java 8 build 51.
I found the legacy apps that were not recognizing the newer JRE (Java Runtime Environment) would recognize the JRE that comes in the Java Developers Kit on the Oracle site. Because of its known vulnerabilities to exploits I cannot recommend installing the JRE 6.
NOTE: Oracle has labeled Java 8 Build 51 a critical update. I suspect it patches a newly discovered vulnerability. Keeping Java and OS X up to date are the best protections against malware of all varieties.

JRE is a browser Java Applet plug-in — currently version 8 update 51 (which I thought is a separate issue from the Java install), ie, to my untrained eye they seem to be different/separate entities for different/separate purposes.
What's the story? confused

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#35253 - 07/27/15 04:08 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
You misunderstand the nature of Java. All Java Applets and Applications require a runtime environment (JRE). In computer languages there are interpretive languages such as BASIC and Javascript (technically ECMAScript) that only ephemerally generate executable code and each statement is translated from human readable code into machine readable form each time each statement is performed. As you can imagine this is not very efficient but it does make the coding process go faster. Compiled programming languages such as Objective C are translated into machine readable code only once, at "compile time" and what you have on your computer is ONLY the resulting machine readable code.

Java is a compromise between the two. The Java code is compiled into an intermediate pseudo machine language. To run a Java app or application you have to have a Java Runtime Environment that translates the pseudocode into executable code for the specific host processor and operating system. The result is not as efficient as a fully compiled application, but a lot more efficient than a fully interpretive language. Theoretically the same compiled pseudocode should be able to run on any processor and operating system with the aid of the appropriate runtime environment.

With appropriate changes in the Java source (ie. the human readable) code header the compiled pseudocode can become…
  • an Applet that only runs in the environment of an internet browser and has severe restrictions on what it can and cannot access and do and not do
  • a stand alone application that is relatively indistinguishable from any other application written in any other programming language
  • a Servlet that can only run in a server environment
  • a variety of other …lets for specialized environments.
all of these require the JRE to execute

The applet plug-in provides the link from the browser to the JRE. (I believe it is still true that Google Chrome is unique in having its own built-in JRE for applets.)

The Java 8 Version 51 install includes both the JRE and the browser plug-in.

For whatever reason Apple chose for many years to adapt its own JRE based on the Java/Oracle JRE but that meant Apple was always behind often several months behind in getting their release out. That was acceptable until vulnerabilities were found where it was previously thought to have been obviated in the original Java standard. (The best laid plans of mice and software designers etc.) Immediately the months long lag was unacceptable. Since Apple had switched from the PowerPC processor, it was no great trick for Oracle to adapt their Intel JRE to the OS X platform and Apple was, I believe, relieved to cede all Java JRE development to them.

This version 6 release that is being discussed here is needed primarily because of poor program design and coding practices on the part of some Java developers. It was never an issue for most Java applets, applications, servlets, et. al.
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#35254 - 07/27/15 05:45 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
Food for thought for developers: "You can run our app if you're willing to run without 'System Integrity Protection.'""

The question is not whether the developer is willing to run without System Integrity protection — it is whether the user is willing to do that or not.

You misread my post...got the developers' selling point backwards.
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35255 - 07/28/15 04:27 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: dkmarsh]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

Since SuperDuper, etc. cannot write the com.apple.rootless Extended Attribute that marks the files in question, it will drop that Extended Attribute in the copying process. Therefore the clone it creates will not possess "System Integrity Protection." After restoring from a clone, the workaround is to reinstall the OS, which will overwrite the vulnerable files with the com.apple.rootless Extended Attribute.

It's all there in Shirt Pocket Watch - Uncovering our rootlessness.


If I understood things correctly (always an issue at play with moi), one will need (or should) reinstall the OS after rebooting from a CCC or SuperDuper clone...

Ergo. I wonder if it will be possible/easier to use Pacifist to merely (re)install the missing rootless attribute. Or, are things such that even Pacifist won't be able to touch/copy that file within the OS Installer?

If it is doable, I would hope for a script (that runs that Pacifist rootless attribute reinstall) just prior to SuperDuper quitting.
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27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35259 - 07/28/15 06:30 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: Pendragon]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Apparently in the beta there is a command line routine available only when booted from on the Recovery Drive that can turn the Rootless mode on and off. (I cannot verify this as I have not tried it.) Whether it makes it to the release version or not is open to conjecture because it could potentially be used in an exploit. If it remains, that might make it possible/necessary to run SuperDuper, CCC, et. al. from the Recovery Drive or to post process activating the Rootless mode to restore the Rootless mode.

I doubt that would be scriptable in the usual sense since at least two reboots would have to occur, but it might be in the form of a printed set of instruction to the user. Personally I would not want to leave that to the users to perform. Too many would not understand the reason and would ignore it leaving their system in an exploitable state.

Suffice it to say ShirtPocket, Mike Bombich, and a legion of malware developers are working on the problem. Speaking of Mike Bombich when I attempted to launch Carbon Copy Cloner I got a popup saying "CCC is not certified for this version of OS X" and kicked me out to the CCC web site. SuperDuper on the other hand will launch and run in El Capitan.
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#35270 - 07/28/15 12:15 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Thanks, Joe.

Sounds like interesting times ahead.

As the Great Master hath opined: "Tis wise to be prudently paranoid". cool
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Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35279 - 07/29/15 05:14 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: Pendragon]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Here's something else: With Split View in El Capitan, going full screen makes sense. I never use full screen mode but this looks interesting.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35364 - 08/03/15 05:23 PM will 10.11 close this vulnerability? [Re: jchuzi]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Active OS X 10.10 zero-day exploit installs malware without need for system passwords Perhaps this vulnerability will be patched in El Capitán.


Edited by jchuzi (08/03/15 05:24 PM)
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Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35365 - 08/03/15 06:14 PM Re: will 10.11 close this vulnerability? [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I believe Rootless will stop it dead in its tracks by blocking modification of /private/etc/sudoers.

Originally Posted By: appleinsider
Discovered by Malwarebytes, the malware installer takes advantage of new error logging features introduced in the latest version of OS X, reports Ars Technica. Specifically, the installer gains root level permissions by modifying a Mac's sudoers configuration file, leaving it open to install adware like VSearch, Genieo package variations and MacKeeper.(Emphasis added)

And further, even a sudoer couldn't modify files in /System/Library (and others) with Rootless in place (not that I specifically know that the installer tries to do so).


Edited by artie505 (08/04/15 12:19 PM)
Edit Reason: Clarify and complete
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35369 - 08/04/15 01:43 AM Re: will 10.11 close this vulnerability? [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Here's some more information: DYLD_PRINT_TO_FILE exploit found in the wild for OS X
I tried the command listed in the article and found nothing awry in my system.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35370 - 08/04/15 01:45 AM Re: will 10.11 close this vulnerability? [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I saw Topher's post, and his command showed nothing awry.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35371 - 08/04/15 02:00 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I've read that upgrading to El Capitan will strip out previously installed Finder plugins, and that Rootless will prevent installation of new and ones, but assuming that successful installation will be possible with Rootless turned off, will it survive its being turned back on?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35372 - 08/04/15 05:42 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I've read that upgrading to El Capitan will strip out previously installed Finder plugins, and that Rootless will prevent installation of new and ones, but assuming that successful installation will be possible with Rootless turned off, will it survive its being turned back on?

Good question.
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#35384 - 08/04/15 06:52 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
Aside: Unless "deprecated" has assumed a technical sense (i.e., jargon), it is wholly wrong/inappropriate in this context.

According to the dictionary in El Capitan the definition of "deprecate" is to express disapproval of… and that is exactly how "deprecated" is used in computer jargon. "Deprecated" refers to something that is no longer approved and remains only to allow third party developers time to modify their product to use an "approved" command, feature, function, etc. You are most app to see it used in the context of an API (Applications Programming Interface) API (Applications Program Interface) that applications use to access operating system functions.
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#35399 - 08/05/15 09:31 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
El Capitan public beta 4 was released today a bit less than 2 weeks after public beta 3. That would seem to indicate Apple is closing on the Gold Master. So far..

  • I have had to delete and reinstall a few applications to restore functionality.
  • Rebuild the Launch Services Database twice to restore the linkage between file extensions and applications. The first rebuild did not survive a reboot.
  • update one application to get it to work
  • After installing beta 1, 2 and 3 I had to manually reboot to finish the installation process.
  • Beta 4 installed and rebooted flawlessly
  • I have found El Capitan to be remarkably stable, especially for a beta product
  • El Capitan "feels" snappier than Yosemite
  • Safari 9.0 loads pages a LOT faster than Safari 8
  • There are a number of minor new UI features that add to the usability factor in El Capitan
  • From what I have seen to date, I heartily recommend El Capitan. From what I have seen it is better at the Git Go than Yosemite is at 10.10.4

YMMV
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#35494 - 08/12/15 04:08 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35497 - 08/13/15 07:59 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
with how Apple has been stepping up their release schedule, I wonder if they will stick to their "we support this version and one previous version" motto? That used to take you back 3-4 yrs, and now you're lucky if you get two.
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#35498 - 08/13/15 08:57 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: Virtual1]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
with how Apple has been stepping up their release schedule, I wonder if they will stick to their "we support this version and one previous version" motto? That used to take you back 3-4 yrs, and now you're lucky if you get two.

Given Apple's target of an 18 month release cycle, and assuming early (immediate) adoption of a new version that works out to a 36 month support window or three years whichever comes first.
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#35952 - 09/10/15 02:16 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Yesterday Apple announced El Capitan (OS X 10.11) would be released by the end of September. At the same time they made the Gold Master available to beta testers through the App Store. Will it surprise anyone here to know that I have already installed it? Anyway I want to share a few things with you about El Capitan and the installation.
  • I like it! 😄 No big surprise there, but compared to Yosemite, El Capitan is…
    • Faster (especially Safari 9.0 that is part of the release)
    • More stable
    • More Bullet Proof (potentially exploitable features have been completely disabled or shielded)
    • Requires less maintenance (In fact many of the old routine preventative maintenance and/or troubleshooting functions are either not available in El Capitan or they are deprecated and strongly not recommended. For example permission repair, housekeeping routines, and defragmenting of files or volumes. Some functions troubleshooters have taken for granted in the past are not even possible in El Capitan.
  • Warning:
    • A few old programs may have to be redesigned, rewritten, or substantially modified because functions they depended on are blocked by El Capitan to prevent their being exploited by malware.
    • Do not use third party utilities such as TechTool Pro 8, Drive Genius 4, DiskWarrior, TinkerTool, TinkerTool System, MacPilot, OnyX, etc. until the developer has certified them for use with El Capitan
  • Caution:
    • CarbonCopyCloner 3.5 will not run on El Capitan. CCC 4 will run but I have verified whether or not it can produce a bootable clone or if that clone retains the security protections of El Capitan.
    • The latest version of SuperDuper (version 2.7.5(v. 95)) runs but for some reason I was not able to produce a bootable clone using it and I have not taken time to troubleshoot the issue.
  • Before Installing El Capitan
    • Be certain you have a good Time Machine or other backup before installing El Capitan — no one has yet been able to repeal Murphy’s law.
    • It is a good idea to run Disk Utility > Volume Repair, TechTool Pro 8 > Volume Repair, Drive Genius 4 > Repair and/or Rebuild, or DiskWarrior to be sure your volume structures are in good shape.
    • Be certain all of your Applications, Utilities, plugins, kernel extensions, etc. are up to date. The App Store will keep anything you get from there up to date (you really should turn on automatic updating) but non-App Store software is up to the developer and it behooves you to be very vigilant and do not put updates off. Etrecheck can be helpful here — as of this morning, the current version is 2.4.2.
    • Because of increased security measures in El Capitan you may find some of your applications will have to be reinstalled because the El Capitan installer will have removed and discarded some third party files from system areas. Generally reinstallation is all it takes to restore functionality but there may be cases where you will have to get an update from the developer.
    • Based on my experience installing the Gold Master I would encourage you to disconnect any and all unessential peripherals before the install. The install will go faster and you are less likely to encounter problems during the install. Other than that the install seems pretty bullet proof.


Edited by joemikeb (09/10/15 02:19 PM)
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#35955 - 09/10/15 04:09 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Although I won't upgrade to El Capitán until 10.11.2, I appreciate your sage advice. I'm most concerned that MS Office 2008 and Adobe Photoshop CS5 will run with the new OS. Do you have any experience with those apps?
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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