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#35362 - 08/03/15 04:46 PM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
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#35363 - 08/03/15 05:15 PM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: tacit
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
A trophy on the wall? The hunter just killed a sentient being for no reason other than a demand of his testosterone.

I will admit when I first read about the hunter who killed Cecil the lion, my very first response was "man, he must have a really small penis."

In which case he apparently took the wrong trophy. tongue blush

From what I've read, he wasn't even hunting the right animal.

He needs to be a bullfighter. tongue
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#35381 - 08/04/15 04:11 PM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: artie505]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I just got a rude reminder that this thread is not expressing the only point of view. In Zimbabwe, We Don’t Cry for Lions shows how people who actually live with lions feel.

I suspect that, if lions roamed neighborhoods in the US, the responses in this thread might be different. Food for thought...

Here's a quote:

Don’t tell us what to do with our animals when you allowed your own mountain lions to be hunted to near extinction in the eastern United States. Don’t bemoan the clear-cutting of our forests when you turned yours into concrete jungles.

And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.


Edited by jchuzi (08/04/15 04:14 PM)
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#35382 - 08/04/15 05:18 PM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
I suspect that, if lions roamed neighborhoods in the US, the responses in this thread might be different[/i]

But they don't, and neither do lots of other predators. However, in Africa there are villages where people live in the midst of the animals and, as a result, some suffer the dreadful consequences. It's the same here when people live in close and unprotected proximity to animals….like campers. Once in while someone gets mauled or killed by a grizzly or mountain lion.

Does Mr. Nzou think the answer is to kill all the lions? To follow his logic, that would be the only way to make all the villagers absolutely safe. And, let's not forget that the lions in the sanctuary are not the rogue animals killing villagers.

However, all of that aside, Mr. Nzou misses the point. Our dentist represents the worst in human nature….someone who gets a perverse thrill out of killing another being.

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
"And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger." Goodwell Nzou

Mr. Nzou, although I'm not sure why you think political violence is part of the "Cecil" issue, I offer condolences for the villagers lost to animals.

However, if you wish to claim that Americans care more about African animals than about Africans, you might want to think about the recent sacrifices during the ebola outbreak, or any number of other American (and many other nations) initiatives to help Africans.




Edited by ryck (08/04/15 05:20 PM)
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#35385 - 08/05/15 01:43 AM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: ryck]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
"And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger." Goodwell Nzou

Condolences to no one.
The basic reason for all the world's ills is overpopulation. (Gee, I wonder where I've heard that before?)
The herd needs to be culled by 50% — and I mean that ecumenically (= universally = across the board), no picking favorites.
If that were to happen overnight, tomorrow there would almost certainly be no famines, starvation, political unrest qua wars, close-quarter disease, etc.
But that ain't gonna happen, so Gaia will use those selfsame measures to even the playing field and bring herself back in equilibrium (homeostasis). I would really like to be around to see that happen — but I have no illusions in that regard given her usual time frames.
A minor aside: There is a mantra in reproductive medicine (at least as promulgated in the west) that good nutrition is essential for fecundity. Every day and in every way this is belied by the facts on every continent.

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#35389 - 08/05/15 05:01 AM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: jchuzi]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
I just got a rude reminder that this thread is not expressing the only point of view. In Zimbabwe, We Don’t Cry for Lions shows how people who actually live with lions feel.

I suspect that, if lions roamed neighborhoods in the US, the responses in this thread might be different. Food for thought...

Here's a quote:

Don’t tell us what to do with our animals when you allowed your own mountain lions to be hunted to near extinction in the eastern United States. Don’t bemoan the clear-cutting of our forests when you turned yours into concrete jungles.

And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren, by political violence, or by hunger.


I don't support a defense of "but you used to do it too" or "but there are other bad things you should be paying more attention to than this". Neither justifies ignoring a problem. Dragging "political violence" into the discussion is a pretty clear act of desperation and distraction.
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#35398 - 08/05/15 09:09 AM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: Virtual1]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Goodwell Nzou is entitled to his viewpoint about Cecil's death, especially since he is from Zimbabwe. But the facts about African native deaths would seem to indicate he is being disengenuous.
  • The leading killer of African native peoples is poverty, famine, and disease
  • Next on the list are war and homicide
  • Among animals who kill people the list is headed by the hippopotamus
  • Not far behind is the Cape Buffalo
  • Even giraffes kill more native people in Africa than lions do. (Giraffes also kill lions)
  • Lions and other feline predators are way down at the bottom of the list despite their undeserved reputation (Notice Goodwell's uncle was not killed by the lion)

His allegations about predatory animals in this country has some merit. Admittedly we came perilously close to losing some of our major predator species such as Mountain Lions, Wolves, and Jaguars; not to mention reducing the black bear population in some areas almost to extinction. Fortunately, wisdom has prevailed. Mountain lions have been reported in parts of the country where they have not been seen for a century or more. Some wildlife experts believe there are significantly more lions around than is generally believed and many are living and thriving in and around metropolitan areas.

I live in Tarrant County, Texas on the western side of the Dallas/For Worth metroplex and the county recently published a pamphlet on what to do when you encounter a mountain lion. (The major advice being to walk away slowly, preferably without turning your back, and leave it alone.) When questioned about this Animal Control said, "They were here first and we are the ones invading their territory." Down in south Texas, along the Rio Grande, ranchers have reported sighting a few Jaguars and have posted signs to the effect, "Leave my Jaguar alone or else". Notice the possessive MY jaguar which tells you how they feel about these dangerous predators. Black bears have been reported in the Big Bend area. Mexican Red Wolves are once again patrolling the west Texas badlands. Wild alligators have long inhabited the Houston area, but a few have recently taken up residence almost to Dallas.

The point is not what we did rather what are we doing. Now we are learning to live in cooperation with the original animal inhabitants of this land. We are human so it is inevitable we won't do this perfectly, but at least many of us are trying to do it better.
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#35400 - 08/05/15 11:40 AM Re: he's no stranger to poaching [Re: joemikeb]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Solid points, well stated.
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#35444 - 08/08/15 03:00 PM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: joemikeb]
dboh Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Quote:
HE is going to have a lot more trouble coming up with the $50,000.


I've read he's got a GoFundMe up.

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#35490 - 08/11/15 03:01 PM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: dboh]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
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#35491 - 08/11/15 05:55 PM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Well regulated trophy hunting does, indeed, help the conservation effort, but, unfortunately, the do-gooders make a hell of a lot more noise than the good-doers.

The airlines' decision to jump on the bandwagon should certainly be re-examined when the furor has died down a bit.

Edit: The airlines could actually aid in the conservation effort by turning pro-active and leaving the ban in place as respects countries that don't manage their efforts satisfactorily.


Edited by artie505 (08/12/15 01:52 AM)
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#35492 - 08/12/15 08:38 AM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Well regulated trophy hunting does, indeed, help the conservation effort, but, unfortunately, the do-gooders make a hell of a lot more noise than the good-doers.

How would you classify the white hunter in this case who intentionally lured the lion out of a protected preserve? The root of the entire problem is money or rather the lack of it. Zimbsbwe, like all too many African nations is cash strapped and too many of their people live in poverty. Aa a result, poaching is a major industry and the game wardens live a perilous life. In Cecils case the white hunter's action as well as the actions of the Dentist who paid for a trophy was straight out of the poacher's handbook.

The long term solution to poaching, piracy, and terrorism in Afirca is raising the standard of living and nany believe cheap reliable electric powee is essntial to that. President Obama and a host of other individuals and nations are workinng on that now. But it is a long hard row to hoe. In the meantime it is essential to conserve so there will be something left in the future.
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#35495 - 08/13/15 02:03 AM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Do you really think Cecil's killing had something to do with either a poverty-stricken hunter or landowner, or have you mixed some apples in with your oranges? (I wonder if we'll ever know the real story?)

On the other hand, there's "Texan Pays $350,000 To Kill Endangered Black Rhino", which glosses over the fact that the rhino in question, having already killed several cows and calves, was a danger to the survival of its own species. (CNN documented that hunt, but I can't find the link again)

Raising the standard of living in Africa is a wonderful idea, but at the moment, at least, I think it's more of a pipe-dream than "a long hard row to hoe". The cost of the multitude of projects that would be necessary to supply Africa with cheap electric power would be staggering even if they could be carried out efficiently and free of corruption, so imagine what they'd actually cost, the state of affairs in so many African countries being what it is.

In the meantime, though, well regulated hunting is a viable means to fund conservation efforts.

In a slightly different vein, is burning ivory, of which several countries have stockpiles in the TONS...Kenya having over 100 left after having already burned some, a good idea, or is it, effectively, grandstanding in the face of the facts that selling it could both aid the conservation effort and perhaps even put a dent in the flow of money to terrorist poachers?
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#35496 - 08/13/15 07:31 AM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie505
In a slightly different vein, is burning ivory, of which several countries have stockpiles in the TONS...Kenya having over 100 left after having already burned some, a good idea, or is it, effectively, grandstanding in the face of the facts that selling it could both aid the conservation effort and perhaps even put a dent in the flow of money to terrorist poachers?

I have to disagree with selling stockpiles and very much favor burning, even though it looks wasteful. The reason is that in order to stop wholesale poaching for ivory, the market needs to be destroyed. Most of the ivory market is in China, and it is making moves to ban the trade and increase education to reduce demand. But as long as sizable lots of ivory hit the market, you only perpetuate demand by catering to it, and that goes hand in hand with poaching. That’s why seized ivory needs to be taken off the market entirely, and if destruction is the only way to ensure that, that’s the way to go.

For some additional background, listen to yesterday’s Fresh Air show on NPR (GPS Trackers In Fake Elephant Tusks Reveal Ivory Smuggling Route).
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#35502 - 08/13/15 11:42 AM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: artie505]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: artie505
In a slightly different vein, is burning ivory, of which several countries have stockpiles in the TONS...Kenya having over 100 left after having already burned some, a good idea, or is it, effectively, grandstanding in the face of the facts that selling it could both aid the conservation effort and perhaps even put a dent in the flow of money to terrorist poachers?

I would hope it'd put a huge dent in poacher income by lowering ivory's value. Like any other commodity, when a massive amount is dumped into the market the value drops. A lower sale price for ivory should thereby reduce the incentive to hunt it.

Perhaps (trying not to be Pollyannish here) a large dump might also reduce it's 'rarity' and make it less attractive to the consumers who see it as something special because it is hard to get.


Edited by ryck (08/13/15 11:46 AM)
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#35504 - 08/13/15 01:02 PM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: ryck]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
I agree that trying to impact the market by restricting the supply is the wrong approach. In any open market, lowering supply has the immediate effect of increasing the price. Only this will cause the other effect, a drop in demand. But the demand will still be there.

I suggest that [ demand x price ] remains constant as long as any supply is available. Therefore, [ price = demand / supply ] Lowering supply must therefore cause a combination of an increase in price and a lowering of demand.

Your goal here is to lower supply. [ supply = demand / price ] So you either have to lower the supply, (protect against poaching) or somehow raise the price. (making export illegal, add fines and risk) They're doing both of these things already.

Temporarily inflating supply (by selling off stockpiles of ivory) causes a combination of increased demand and lowered price. Increased demand may cause problems since you can't dilute the supply indefinitely with finite stockpiles. But lowering price will impact poaching by making it less profitable for the fixed risks involved. So in the short term it will definitely help, but in the long term it may backfire when supply returns to normal and demand remains the same, causing prices to go up and poaching to pick back up.

I personally see increasing penalties as the best sustainable approach.
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#35507 - 08/13/15 03:45 PM Re: Dentist defines despicable [Re: Virtual1]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
"Like Cocaine Minus the Risk, Rhino Horn Trade Explodes in Africa. Driven by relentless demand from Asia, rhinoceros horn now fetches some $65,000 per kilogram, or nearly $30,000 per pound, on global black markets, making it worth more than the street price of cocaine." Ibtimes.com, Apr 9, 2014

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/world/2...e-elderly-male/

Maybe educating people that the horns of animals are made of mostly silica. Silica does have medicinal value and that's why you can go into any health food store and buy it. That floods the market and people willing to pay cocaine-like prices for cures might realize bad people are stealing their money by telling them lies.

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