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#35003 - 07/09/15 04:21 PM El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available
joemikeb Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The El Capitan (OS X 10.11) and iOS 9 Public Betas are now available for the adventurous who have joined Apple's Beta program . At this point all I can tell you is the install went flawlessly on my Mac mini. The iOS 9 install hasn't finished yet — the download servers are apparently getting hammered.
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#35004 - 07/10/15 03:57 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
freelance Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: London, UK
Nuts! I've finally made the leap from Snow Leopard to Yosemite! Now, I've got another one to keep an eye on...

At least it's in the same park.
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Mac Pro dual-2.4 GHz, 10.13.6, 24 Gb RAM, 250 Gb Samsung EVO SSD/Velocity Solo PCIe card, 2x3Tb Seagate HD, 1x3Tb Hitachi HD, Dell 2408WFP; Canon PIXMA iX6550; CanoScan 8800F; MacBook Air 1.8 Ghz, 8 Gb RAM, 10.14.5, 256 Gb SSD; Vodafone Home Hub/BT Wi-Fi Extender.

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#35030 - 07/11/15 04:23 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
El Capitan beta observations:
  • So far I have encountered only one application that does not work with El Capitan — Photoshop Elements 12. Launched individually both the Editor and Organizer seem to work well albeit both load slowly. But when i attempt to launch the editor through Photoshop Elements Menu or from PE 12 Organizer, the colorful new pinwheel spins interminably and then — nothing. confused
    • I have had a couple of apps or plugins that would not open after the El Capitan upgrade, but simply reinstalling the same version of the app or plugin "fixed" the problem. confused
    • A couple of beta versions of apps have had updates due to "minor El Capitan issues" but although I use both almost constantly I never noticed any problem before or after their "fix".
    • I don't have anything from Microsoft so I cannot vouch for that compatibility, but I do have Adobe Acrobat X Pro and it has no problem
  • Connections to network drives that seemed to take forever in Mavericks and Yosemite seem to be almost instantaneous in El Capitan. cool
  • I dreaded opening Safari in Yosemite for the first time each morning because the first page load always seemed to take forever. That sluggish first page load is gone in El Capitan. Safari 9.0 is snappy first page and every page after that. cool
  • The Autofill of passwords in Safari 9.0 has some nice new enhancements particularly where there may be multiple logons for the same site.
  • I will probably jinx myself for saying this, but so far El Capitan Public Beta 1 is VERY stable on my Mac mini. It appears to be more stable than 10.10.4 was on the same computer. (I wish there were an emoji available here for crossed fingers)..
  • Speaking of emoji there is a new ABC keyboard offering in the Keyboard input menu — it appears to be identical to U.S. Extended confused — and Show Emoji & Symbols has been added to that menu. Optio
  • There is a new "News" app that is standard with iOS 9. Basically a news reader that is fully integrated into the iOS. I like it, but there are a LOT of news reader apps in the App Store. and I can't tell what this one brings to the party that is new or unique. n+Command+Space (⌃⌘⎵) from Yosemite works too but there are differences between the two lists.

iOS 9 Observations:
  • I probably should have realized this earlier, but if you have an Apple Watch you have to download not only iOS 9 but also an iOS 9 configuration profile for the watch. I can't tell what it does but it is there and should be downloaded and installed.
  • There are changes to the UI, particularly when you have multiple apps open at the same time. When you double click the App switcher button they all appear overlapped on the screen and you can either select one by touching it, swipe others to the side, or up to quit. It does not sound like much, but I really like it.
  • There is a new "enlarged" screen view. You cannot see as much on the screen but it magnifies the screen for those needing visual enhancement.
  • Mail in iOS 9 and El Capitan are more alike than ever. The experience is becoming more seamless between the two platforms.
  • NOTE: Since getting the Apple watch I seldom check mail, messages, etc. or answer calls on the iPhone unless it is a long one or FaceTime. It is easier and more convenient to use the watch. As a result the iOS 9 changes are more apparent to me on the iPad than on the iPhone.
  • So far, I have encountered no incompatibilities between iOS 9 and any applications.
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#35036 - 07/12/15 01:28 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Handy new El Capitan feature. If you "lose" the cursor on a busy screen, move the mouse back and forth quickly or wiggle your finger on the trackpad and for a second or so the cursor will become several times larger.
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#35041 - 07/12/15 02:22 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Handy new El Capitan feature. If you "lose" the cursor on a busy screen, move the mouse back and forth quickly or wiggle your finger on the trackpad and for a second or so the cursor will become several times larger.
That will probably be the reason that I'll want El Capitan.
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Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35193 - 07/24/15 07:12 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
For whatever reason I had not opened Disk Utility in El Capitan until today and discovered…
  • Permission Repair is among the missing. If it is there, it is well hidden and I have not been able to find it so far. Apple has been saying permission repair is no longer necessary and it appears they really mean it.
  • a completely new easier to read and interpret user interface offering a lot more information about the file system including a breakdown of storage by file type.
  • Disk/volume verification and repair are no longer available as stand alone options they are rolled into First Aid which verifies and repairs. (IMO Verification has always been a waste of time anyway)
  • It appears First Aid (including repair) can be run on the active boot drive! NOTE: I cannot confirm this yet.
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#35194 - 07/24/15 11:57 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Quote:
It appears First Aid (including repair) can be run on the active boot drive!

Not that "Repair Disk" has been a critical and necessary feature lately, but that's interesting.

I wonder how they did it, if they have , in fact, done it?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35198 - 07/24/15 04:13 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
For whatever reason I had not opened Disk Utility in El Capitan until today and discovered…
  • Permission Repair is among the missing. If it is there, it is well hidden and I have not been able to find it so far. Apple has been saying permission repair is no longer necessary and it appears they really mean it.
  • a completely new easier to read and interpret user interface offering a lot more information about the file system including a breakdown of storage by file type.
  • Disk/volume verification and repair are no longer available as stand alone options they are rolled into First Aid which verifies and repairs. (IMO Verification has always been a waste of time anyway)
  • It appears First Aid (including repair) can be run on the active boot drive! NOTE: I cannot confirm this yet.
Look at Private I: El Capitan's System Integrity Protection will shift utilities' functions and scroll down. The relevant part says:

If you’re running a beta of El Capitan, you’ll also notice a change to Disk Utility: Repair disk permissions is gone! (And the program’s user interface has been totally overhauled.) OS X 10.11 automatically repairs permissions during software updates, and permissions won’t be allowed to be changed at other times—thus, they won’t need to be repaired. It’s been thought that repair disk permissions was a placebo for the last few releases, even though it was once a vital part of the troubleshooting arsenal.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35200 - 07/24/15 04:25 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Quote:
OS X 10.11 automatically repairs permissions during software updates, and permissions won’t be allowed to be changed at other times....

Not that I'm the least bit conversant with "custom permissions", but that apparently relegates them to the dustbin.

Will that be a significant loss to anybody?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35208 - 07/25/15 09:01 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Not that I'm the least bit conversant with "custom permissions", but that apparently relegates them to the dustbin.

Will that be a significant loss to anybody?

Maybe to a few developers who are discontented with complying with the Apple standards.

By the way I just got an updated release of a third party app that used to have a permissions repair feature and it is no longer there either.
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#35210 - 07/25/15 10:50 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Look at Private I: El Capitan's System Integrity Protection will shift utilities' functions and scroll down. The relevant part says:

If you’re running a beta of El Capitan, you’ll also notice a change to Disk Utility: Repair disk permissions is gone! (And the program’s user interface has been totally overhauled.) OS X 10.11 automatically repairs permissions during software updates, and permissions won’t be allowed to be changed at other times—thus, they won’t need to be repaired. It’s been thought that repair disk permissions was a placebo for the last few releases, even though it was once a vital part of the troubleshooting arsenal.

Very interesting article an confirms the direction Apple has been moving since Yosemite if not Mountain Lion. For those who like to install software outside of the App Store there is even more interesting information further down in the article where it says…

Originally Posted By: Macworld
The specifics of System Integrity Protection are that no user, application, or process will be able to write files or modify files in the root System folder or the /bin, /sbin, and /usr directories, which are hidden by default in OS X’s Finder. The /usr/local folder remains accessible, however; it’s a long-running convention in Unix and variants as a place to stash material and software that individual users rely on.

El Capitan will also remove files from those directories that don’t belong to Apple. Upgrading to El Capitan will therefore disable some software you want, but also pull out old cruft that isn’t needed, and perhaps kill some lurking horrors. Only Apple installer software and software updater can modify the contents of those folders.
<snip>
The upshot for most users, especially those who only use Apple software and software purchased or obtained through the Mac App Store, is that there will be no difference whatsoever. The vast majority of software used by the vast majority of people doesn’t need access to or play around with files or processes.

For users who customize their systems with utilities and like to make full nightly clone updates of their systems, there will be change ahead. Developers are going to have to rethink some of their products [think Superduper, CCC, and a host of other utilities - JMB]
<snip>
This does take OS X further down the road towards an iOS-style full lockdown, but Apple made an effort to carve out only the most troubling aspects of unfettered root access.
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joemikeb • moderator

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#35214 - 07/25/15 06:39 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
That suggests that OS X will ultimately not run any app or utility that isn't first vetted by Apple and then acquired from the App Store, doesn't it?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35216 - 07/26/15 12:39 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
That suggests that OS X will ultimately not run any app or utility that isn't first vetted by Apple and then acquired from the App Store, doesn't it?

And where might that leave folk who use standard applications such as MS Office for the Mac, Adobe apps, various browsers (other than Safari), email clients, ...?

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#35217 - 07/26/15 12:51 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
That suggests that OS X will ultimately not run any app or utility that isn't first vetted by Apple and then acquired from the App Store, doesn't it?

And where might that leave folk who use standard applications such as MS Office for the Mac, Adobe apps, various browsers (other than Safari), email clients, ...?

My post is an extrapolation of "an iOS-style full lockdown", but I'm not sure if it's a correct interpretation.

I certainly hope not.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35220 - 07/26/15 09:19 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
And where might that leave folk who use standard applications such as MS Office for the Mac, Adobe apps, various browsers (other than Safari), email clients, ...?

  • Older non-Apple files in the primary system folders are removed by the El Capitan installer and the application developers will have to rewrite their code so that it does not need them. This results in much cleaner system
  • If they install anything into the systems area including kernel extensions (kexts) [etc) they will have to use the Apple installer and not a home brew installer of their own making.
  • Developers will be forced to adhere more closely to Apple coding practices and standards rather than blithely "patching" the OS to make their software work.
  • In the case of utilities much of their functionality will be rendered superfluous or useless.
  • Super Duper, Carbon Copy Cloner, and the cloning functions of several other utilities are going to have to figure out how to clone portions of the OS that are for all intents and purposes cannot be copied.
  • the same can be said for pretty much all third party backup software utilities
  • It is entirely possible that some, perhaps many, long time standby utilities will disappear or continue with greatly reduced functionality.
  • Just as happened with Yosemite a lot of sovereign trouble shooting techniques will become unnecessary, ineffective, and in many cases impossible.
  • It just occurred to me the unreadable sections of the OS are going to present a unique challenge to anti-malware developers. Will they choose to rely on the OS and ignore the protected portions of El Capitan or will they work on finding work arounds to let them in?
This change in El Capitan obviates a plethora of potential malware exploits and forces application developers to be more security aware instead of placing all the reliance on the OS. To coin and old saw, "El Capitan closes the barn door before the horse gets out."
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#35221 - 07/26/15 11:48 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Quote:
• Super Duper, Carbon Copy Cloner, and the cloning functions of several other utilities are going to have to figure out how to clone portions of the OS that are for all intents and purposes cannot be copied.

I'm certain that newly begun Time Machine backups will be able to deal with those files, so it seems like there ought to be a workaround for developers.

I'm happy to hear that my guess about the App Store is (so far) incorrect.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35222 - 07/26/15 02:56 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm certain that newly begun Time Machine backups will be able to deal with those files, so it seems like there ought to be a workaround for developers.

I see two possibilities for Time Machine;
  1. Time Machine does not backup the protected parts of the OS and instead relies on reinstalling the OS itself from the internet or
  2. Since Time Machine is part of the OS it is operating at a very low level inside the protective shell of the system and therefore can access the protected files.
Option 2 would seem to imply any clone apps would have to be installed into the OS itself, which the installer is specifically designed to prevent.

The catch here is if Super Duper et al can get around the protections so can malware developers. That in turn means Apple will have to develop protections that prevent the work around so clone developers will have to develop work arounds which can in turn be used buy malware developers which means Apple will have to develop a way to stop the work around and so on and so on and so on ad infinitum.

A potentially viable option would be the cloners would only clone user and third party application files leaving restoring the OS to the reinstall mechanism in the Recovery drive sort of a reverse Migration Assistant. To get a bootable clone might require the user to install El Capitan on the clone drive before making the clone.

It is a problem I am more than content to leave to Shirt Pocket Software and others to solve and I am confident they are already working on it.
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#35223 - 07/26/15 03:17 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
dkmarsh Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09

Since SuperDuper, etc. cannot write the com.apple.rootless Extended Attribute that marks the files in question, it will drop that Extended Attribute in the copying process. Therefore the clone it creates will not possess "System Integrity Protection." After restoring from a clone, the workaround is to reinstall the OS, which will overwrite the vulnerable files with the com.apple.rootless Extended Attribute.

It's all there in Shirt Pocket Watch - Uncovering our rootlessness.
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#35224 - 07/26/15 03:29 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: grelber
And where might that leave folk who use standard applications such as MS Office for the Mac, Adobe apps, various browsers (other than Safari), email clients, ...?

  • Older non-Apple files in the primary system folders are removed by the El Capitan installer and the application developers will have to rewrite their code so that it does not need them. This results in much cleaner system
  • If they install anything into the systems area including kernel extensions (kexts) [etc) they will have to use the Apple installer and not a home brew installer of their own making.
  • Developers will be forced to adhere more closely to Apple coding practices and standards rather than blithely "patching" the OS to make their software work.
  • In the case of utilities much of their functionality will be rendered superfluous or useless.
  • Super Duper, Carbon Copy Cloner, and the cloning functions of several other utilities are going to have to figure out how to clone portions of the OS that are for all intents and purposes cannot be copied.
  • the same can be said for pretty much all third party backup software utilities
  • It is entirely possible that some, perhaps many, long time standby utilities will disappear or continue with greatly reduced functionality.
  • Just as happened with Yosemite a lot of sovereign trouble shooting techniques will become unnecessary, ineffective, and in many cases impossible.
  • It just occurred to me the unreadable sections of the OS are going to present a unique challenge to anti-malware developers. Will they choose to rely on the OS and ignore the protected portions of El Capitan or will they work on finding work arounds to let them in?
This change in El Capitan obviates a plethora of potential malware exploits and forces application developers to be more security aware instead of placing all the reliance on the OS. To coin and [sic] old saw, "El Capitan closes the barn door before the horse gets out."

None of that seems to directly address my query ... or, if it does, it means that every last bit of third party applications (such as those I provided as examples) will be useless — and it would be highly unlikely for their creators to fix such just to appease Apple. Or am I missing something critical?

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#35225 - 07/26/15 03:49 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
If a cloned installation is fully functional despite lacking "System Integrity Protection", the risk in running it may be almost negligible, because while it will remain vulnerable to existing exploits, there aren't likely to be many new ones targeting the very likely very small number of users who'll be running thusly.

I wonder how much of a mitigating factor

Originally Posted By: Shirt Pocket
As an added benefit, it will speed up your boot process, since it'll recreate certain caches that non-special-Apple-programs can no longer update.

will be? (Edit: It seems like there ought to be a built-in utility to do that.)

Food for thought for developers: "You can run our app if you're willing to run without 'System Integrity Protection.'""


Edited by artie505 (07/26/15 09:55 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#35227 - 07/26/15 06:35 PM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Will a surface scan be able to do its job on those inaccessible files?


Edited by artie505 (07/26/15 06:36 PM)
Edit Reason: Wrong word

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#35233 - 07/27/15 05:54 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
It appears that many legacy apps will run in El Capitan. Apple just released Java for OS X 2015-001, implying that Photoshop CS5 will be OK in 10.11. (That version of PS requires Java 6.) We'll see...
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#35235 - 07/27/15 07:52 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artie505
Will a surface scan be able to do its job on those inaccessible files?


"surface scan" by MY definition is direct block IO, and ignores file system formats, partition layout, etc.
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#35238 - 07/27/15 09:05 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Food for thought for developers: "You can run our app if you're willing to run without 'System Integrity Protection.'""

The question is not whether the developer is willing to run without System Integrity protection — it is whether the user is willing to do that or not. A developer that released a product running without system integrity protection and did not fully apprising the user of their risk would soon be spending all of their development time and money in lawsuits. And we are talking popup banners not s sentence buried in the depths of an unread license agreement.
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#35239 - 07/27/15 09:13 AM Re: El Capitan (OS X 10.11) Public Beta Available [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
It appears that many legacy apps will run in El Capitan. Apple just released Java for OS X 2015-001, implying that Photoshop CS5 will be OK in 10.11. (That version of PS requires Java 6.) We'll see...

According to Apple,

"Java for OS X 2015-001 installs the legacy Java 6 runtime for OS X 10.11 El Capitan, OS X 10.10 Yosemite, OS X 10.9 Mavericks, OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion, and OS X 10.7 Lion.
"This package is exclusively intended for support of legacy software and installs the same deprecated version of Java 6 included in the 2014-001 and 2013-005 releases."

It would therefore seem to be unnecessary to update to Java for OS X 2015-001 if one has already updated with one or the other of the versions mentioned.

Aside: Unless "deprecated" has assumed a technical sense (ie, jargon), it is wholly wrong/inappropriate in this context.

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