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#33795 - 04/11/15 10:48 AM Plan for your future, the far future
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
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#33797 - 04/11/15 12:03 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: deniro]
joemikeb Online
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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Interesting and though provoking would be my description. But I question some of the estimates in the Future of Humanity, Spacecraft and Space Exploration, and Technological Projects. Even though they are based mathematical models, like most predictions of the future they appear to assume too much dependence on current science and technology. In the real world there are new and sometimes radically different science and technologies emerging at an accelerating rate that may make many of the predictions meaningless.

NASA for example is actually working on a potential technology that would make faster than light space travel not only possible. but a realistically achievable goal. FTL travel alone could throw many, perhaps most, of the predictions in the three areas mentioned out the window or at least into the "who gives a darn" category. On the other hand there are enough crazies and extremists around today who are apparently willing to start throwing thermonuclear weapons around that the planet and the human race may not make it into the next century. To me they are what is really scary.
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#33799 - 04/11/15 03:50 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
FTL?

There once was a man named Bright,
Who traveled faster than light.
He zoomed off one day
in a relative way,
And returned on the previous night.
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#33801 - 04/12/15 10:32 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: joemikeb]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
Quote:
NASA for example is actually working on a potential technology that would make faster than light space travel not only possible. but a realistically achievable goal.


No way.
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#33802 - 04/12/15 11:34 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: deniro]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: deniro
No way.
Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life at NASA. grin
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#33804 - 04/12/15 01:38 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
They even have a preliminary ship design you can see here.

Have I got a land and/or bridge deal for you! wink tongue

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#33805 - 04/12/15 01:42 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: deniro
No way.

Way! You can see the very preliminary ship design here. The designer admits Star Treck's contribution to the design, but that does not mean it is not a serious effort.

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Beam me up Scotty. There's no intelligent life at NASA. grin

Jon, don't tell me you are one of those who believes the moon landings took place in a Hollywood studio. grin I'm old enough to remember reading some not even half baked theories that traveling faster than the speed of sound would be fatal to human life, but I have traveled faster than sound and I am still here. I just wish I thought I would be around long enough to see NASA's FTL comer to fruition! Maybe my grandsons will see it. I hope so.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Have I got a land and/or bridge deal for you! wink tongue

I already own some swamped land in Florida it is called Disney's Old Key West Resort at Walt Disney World and I go there at least twice every year. To quote Walt Disney, "If someone can imagine it, someone can build it" and he proved that over an over again. I can imagine FTL travel and NASA can imaging FTL travel, but they have a lot better chance at building it than I do.


Edited by joemikeb (04/12/15 01:49 PM)
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#33806 - 04/12/15 04:10 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I'm hardly an expert on relativity, but (as I understand it), mass increases as velocity approaches the speed of light. According to Einstein's equations, mass becomes infinite (at least, the equations show mass divided by zero, a mathematical no-no, at the speed of light). Consequently, no material object can attain the speed of light, much less exceed it. Light itself, of course, has no mass (although that may be open to question; I believe that it is possible that photons have a small mass).

If there are any physicists out there, let's here from them!
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#33807 - 04/12/15 04:42 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Jon, Read the referenced article about NASA's FTL before you get egg on your face. The ship itself is standing absolutely still in a bubble of space/time that which is moving faster than light, and yes that is mathematically possible under the theory of relativity. The theory of relativity is neither disproven nor broken.
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#33808 - 04/12/15 04:50 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
... Light itself, of course, has no mass (although that may be open to question; I believe that it is possible that photons have a small mass).

Einstein proved/predicted that light has mass. Proof is that light bends when it passes around massive objects (due to gravitational force). It's one of the reasons that one can see supernovas over and over again, as in [i/Groundhog Day[/i]; check out Astronomers Watch a Supernova and See Reruns.
Banzai!
_ _ _ _ _ _

PS
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If there are any physicists out there, let's here from them!

We should probably hear from them. crazy

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#33809 - 04/12/15 06:46 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: jchuzi]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If there are any physicists out there, let's here from them!

I’m no physicist, but I can offer some background that’s applicable. Stephen Baxter’s sci-fi novel Ark features a space ship with an Alcubierre drive, allowing a form of "apparent" or "effective" FTL travel comparable to the ‘spaceship in a bubble’ propulsion mentioned by joemikeb. This kind of ‘warp’ drive is not excluded by general relativity, although ‘its physical plausibility is uncertain’. cool

Apart from that, you somewhat loosely mention the ‘material object’ that’s subject to the light speed limit. However, ’qualifying’ objects have to have a ‘rest mass’, allowing a theoretical way out of the limit. But yes, theoretical doesn’t necessarily imply practical or even possible. tongue
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#33810 - 04/12/15 08:50 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: alternaut]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Unfortunately, relativity doesn't just prohibit matter from exceeding the speed of light--it also prohibits information from traveling faster than light.

Ideas like the Alcubierre drive rely on exotic forms of matter that have never been observed to exist. Even if those forms of matter do exist--rather a big 'if'--they may require effectively infinite energy to operate. I would love to see someone come up with a loophole that allows FTL travel, but I'm not holding my breath. Sadly, the fundamental structure of the universe appears to be against it.
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#33811 - 04/13/15 01:51 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: tacit]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: tacit
Unfortunately, relativity doesn't just prohibit matter from exceeding the speed of light--it also prohibits information from traveling faster than light.

Nope. See "Quantum Trickery: Testing Einstein's Strangest Theory" by Dennis Overbye in The New York Times from December 27, 2005.
Physicists found that "atoms were each spinning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. Moreover, ... they were all doing whatever it was they were doing together, in perfect synchrony. Should one of them realize ... that it is in a metaphysically untenable situation and decide to spin only one way, the rest would instantly fall in line, whether they were across a test tube or across the galaxy.
"The idea that measuring the properties of one particle could instantaneously change the properties of another one (or a whole bunch) far away is strange to say the least — almost as strange as the notion of particles spinning in 2 directions at once. The team that pulled off the beryllium feat ... hailed it as another step toward computers that would use quantum magic to perform calculations."

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#33812 - 04/13/15 04:44 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: deniro]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: deniro
Quote:
NASA for example is actually working on a potential technology that would make faster than light space travel not only possible. but a realistically achievable goal.


No way.


In my part of the galaxy, we obey the laws of physics!
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#33814 - 04/13/15 06:43 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: Virtual1]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
In my part of the galaxy, we obey the laws of physics!
A quote from a galactic road sign:

186,000 miles per second: It's not only a good idea, it's the LAW.
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#33815 - 04/13/15 07:24 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: Virtual1]
MacManiac Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
...to quote Bugs Bunny, "I never studied law"...
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#33816 - 04/13/15 08:09 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: MacManiac]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: MacManiac
...to quote Bugs Bunny, "I never studied law"...


that explains a great deal of the physics demonstrated in cartoons

http://i.imgur.com/r0AYH.gif

But nobody did it anywhere near as good as Wile:

http://blog.coyoteproductions.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/81657.jpg

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c72e153ef015393513089970b-800wi

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/08/article-1327845-0BF704CC000005DC-414_468x286.jpg
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#33818 - 04/13/15 09:02 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: Virtual1]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
But nobody did it anywhere near as good as Wile ...

Given that observation, I shouldn't have elided part of my quote from "Quantum Trickery" in Post #33811 — herewith corrected:

"Should one of them realize, like the cartoon character who runs off a cliff and doesn't fall until he looks down, that it is in a metaphysically untenable situation and decide to spin only one way, the rest would instantly fall in line, whether they were across a test tube or across the galaxy."

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#33819 - 04/13/15 09:18 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: Virtual1]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
In my part of the galaxy, we obey the laws of physics!

OK, let's muddy that water: what about tachyons? Hypothetical, yes, but does that equate to real, unlikely or impossible? shocked tongue
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#33820 - 04/13/15 09:52 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: alternaut
... what about tachyons? Hypothetical, yes, but does that equate to real, unlikely or impossible?

Yes/No. They're hypothetical, ie, based on an hypothesis, "a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation."
Ergo, no way to know if they're legitimate unless and until observed — like the even more renowned hypothetical construct, the Higgs boson, which is the current Grail sought by particle physicists. CERN probably is the best bet in discovering it.

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#33824 - 04/13/15 04:56 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
The laws of nature aside, judging from the artist's conception of that ship, the laws of economics will put the big kibosh on it.

It would very likely bankrupt the entire planet, now and in any foreseeable future, to set up and maintain just the infrastructure necessary to build it in zero G, forget altogether about the actual construction costs.
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#33827 - 04/13/15 07:47 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
…like the even more renowned hypothetical construct, the Higgs boson, which is the current Grail sought by particle physicists. CERN probably is the best bet in discovering it.

That particular Grail is no longer current, for the Higgs boson was actually discovered at CERN’s LHC on July 4, 2012, and confirmed two years later. I'm not sure what the new 'Grail' is.
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#33828 - 04/14/15 01:14 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
True dat. Talk about a mental lapse/warp/slippage (commonly known as a brain fart) ... Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. blush

But mitigating in my favor vis-à-vis the Higgs boson: There are other types of the Higgs boson still being sought.

I was 'thinking' about dark matter and the age of the universe. A Planck satellite image which provided evidence of a time closer to the Big Bang was subsequently found to have artifacts which led to a false conclusion.

So I humbly proffer that the 'new' Grails would be dark matter and dark energy.

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#33830 - 04/14/15 10:45 AM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artie505
It would very likely bankrupt the entire planet,

If you're talking monetary, that's really impossible. Wealth is distributed, it can't really be destroyed. Speculation (stock market) is the only way that's loosely considered to be able to "create" or "destroy" wealth. It would be a significant contributor to global inflation though, as material and labor were effectively siphoned out of the economy.

On the other hand, if you're referring to resources, that's possible, depending on the resource. Some resources (such as gold or copper for electronics) may not be in adequate supply. Until we get good at nuclear element synthesis or element-level recycling, that's going to continue to be a problem.

Besides high efficiency (75%+) direct solar to electrical, the most fundamental tech we are likely to achieve in the next century is nuclear recycling... everyone oohs and aaaahs when they see a star trek replicator, but really the opposite is what we need. To be able to drop a garbage bag down a chute, and have a machine fill rows of chutes, vials, and cylinders with the elements contained within. That tech will come, but it's a ways down the road from now. That will tie in with things like nitrogen fixing and carbon sequestering also. So far we've gotten pretty good at putting things together, but are still pretty bad at taking them apart. And without that, eventually you can't put things together anymore. That summarizes "industrial waste".
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#33832 - 04/14/15 12:01 PM Re: Plan for your future, the far future [Re: Virtual1]
deniro Offline


Registered: 09/09/09
What kind of company is Acme? They send explosives through the mail to a coyote?


Edited by deniro (04/14/15 12:14 PM)
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