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#28270 - 03/02/14 02:50 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
By the way, you've never told us which Website is causing your grief; it just might result in some useful feedback from others who either visit the same site or are interested in visiting it to see if they can replicate your experience.
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#28271 - 03/02/14 04:22 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

RHV—

I agree that this thread has veered away from your issue and apologize for the extent to which I may have been responsible. Unfortunately, such digressions sometimes—as in this case—occur incrementally rather than in one fell swoop, and it’s much easier to measure the extent of the wandering in retrospect than it is in real time.

For instance, I wonder what you’d characterize as the first off-topic post in this thread? Clearly a question and answer session regarding the meaning of database terminology has no connection with Safari timeouts, but that discussion arose as part of an exploration of the effectiveness of alternative techniques for emptying Safari’s cache—an exploration which you initiated:

Originally Posted By: RHV
But is it right to assume that Develop's "Empty Caches" does the same job that the deletion of the file (sic) named "com.apple.Safari" does. I assume so. But when different but similar words are used, one has to wonder whether that verbal difference means a substantive difference.

My posting of Terminal output was an attempt to shed some light on this question. Unfortunately, my understanding of SQL and its variants was insufficient to derive useful information from the exercise other than to note that deleting the folder resulted in a much smaller cache.

Your gracious reply to my post didn’t seem to contain any indication that you found the discussion to that point to have lost its germaneness to the topic of your Safari timeouts. Now, was artie’s followup commentary regarding the mysterious additional cache files off-topic? Maybe so, and if that’s the specific post at which the database discussion should have been transplanted out of the thread, then I apologize for instead having responded to it. (Fact is, I had already done additional research and educated myself, at least in a cursory way, as to the function of those files, and given the fact that I had, in the post you responded positively to, indicated a complete lack of awareness of their function, I felt some responsibility to update that status.)

When you expressed your feeling that your issue was now being pushed aside, I responded by seeking clarification about what you meant by “refreshing.” In your subsequent reply, you said:

Originally Posted By: RHV
I've just downloaded the recent update for Mavs (9.0.2) which updates Safari to 7.0.2. I'll see if Safari 7.0.2 gives me Request Timeouts.

I can’t speak for other followers of the thread, but I was awaiting your report.

However, the ongoing discussion RE database transactions in which that exchange between you and me was submerged is clearly at an entire magnitude’s remove from relevance to your topic, and I’ve requested that the posts comprising that discussion be moved to constitute a separate thread.

Apropos of your issue, though: in your initial post, you say:

Quote:
With Firefox or Google Chrome, never a time out.

No time outs with Safari on my bank website or other sites.

This certainly seems to indicate that your issue is with a single site. How, then—when the site is unnamed—can you expect us “to know that [your] problem is fairly widespread?” If your research indicates that there’s a general issue with Safari timing out on individual sites, why not include a link or two in your own posts to direct our attention to those other sources of information? Contributors here are already investing at least some time and energy in following threads and researching answers; why denigrate them (“[a]re your guys and gals a bit out to lunch?”) for failing to do research you’ve already done? The guys and gals who contribute here do so voluntarily, out of a general shared interest in Mac troubleshooting topics. Nobody makes a dime, so it might be a stretch to refer to those seeking help as "clients."

I agree that you shouldn't have to mine your thread to extract posts of relevance, and I'm sorry that happened in this case. Can we assume that the Mavericks/Safari update did not fix your issue?

Edit: the referenced branch of posts has been moved.


Edited by dkmarsh (03/02/14 04:43 AM)
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#28279 - 03/02/14 07:06 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
RHV,

Let me personally apologize for your issue's treatment here. I too am using Safari by preference over Firefox and like you I am using Mavericks (now 10.9.2) and Safari's latest iteration. I too have noticed occasional slow downs or stalls when browsing, but rather than ascribe them to Safari specifically, I took them to be caused by the particular network I was using. I didn't take the time to research your issue further for several reasons….among them that most of the stalls I had seen were cleared by simply reloading the page, AND I personally hadn't been inconvenienced to the same level that you experienced with your financial institution's site….and for whatever reason, you hadn't made it clear that this was as widespread as you now have clearly let us know with your latest post.

The discussion on cache clearing and all of the side topics regarding the various releases of Safari are relevant, however, and should remain in this thread so that others can learn from that info. While not everyone else may be on the same version of Safari as you, they might also be experiencing similar symptoms and, for them, clearing caches could help.

I will be traveling like you for the next week or so and will explore the other forum's discussions to see what, if any, other suggestions for resolution have been raised.

Please bear with us a while longer…..
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#28288 - 03/03/14 08:46 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Researching some outside forums using a Google search for "Safari stalls Mavericks" has yielded limited progress….so far, the issues reported seem to be all over the page, but one suggestion I've seen seems reasonable.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/23893235#23893235

Linc Davis on the Apple Support Forums posted a possible solution noted above. I haven't tried it yet as I am away from MY Mavericks 10.9.2 / Safari 7.0.2 installation until later today, however, his thought that there may be an ACL and/or user permissions issue holds some credibility in my view. My particular case may be different from yours as my computer came with Mavericks already installed directly from the box.

I'll post back later today once I've tested his suggestion.
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#28297 - 03/03/14 08:25 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
RHV,

I'm responding to your posts specifically so that we can try to reconcile your issue with Safari stalling when you go to your financial investments broker web site. If you are still tracking this discussion please let us know if the recent update to 10.9.2 (which included Safari 7.0.2) has had any impact.

I haven't seen any stalls since my update, but my setup is not quite the same as yours.....my computer came new with Mavericks installed as opposed to yours having been upgraded from an earlier OS.

The potential resolution I cited in my earlier post may be more appropriate to your installation.

Let us know.
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#28298 - 03/03/14 09:33 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: artie505]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
"Do you realize that you hijacked your own thread...spun it off in a totally unrelated direction to complain about others having veered off tangentially?"

I hijacked and spun off my own thread in an unrelated direction by complaining about the too many irrelevant entries re: my Safari Time Outs problem in the thread I started?

How did I managed to hijack or spin off my own thread given that my complaint came last in the conversation? Most times the present does not cause things to happen in the past.

So, Artie, you must therefore be saying that my complaint hijacked and spun off my thread by foreclosing future advice re: my problem that has YET to come from FTM.

Artie, I dearly hope you are right in that. So … will you please forgive my complaint and advance that advice. I keenly await it. My problem is still unsolved.

In the meantime, what happened in my thread on Safari Time Outs at FTM was a good example of how a forum should NOT work. The helpers took over on topics of interest to them but unrelated to my problem. When the OP returns to his/her thread, all that’s in it MUST be clearly related to the OP’s problem. If the helpers want to help each other to be better educated in their helper tasks, they should do it in a helper education section of the forum — like the lounge but aimed instead at techie stuff. But not, of course, in an OP's thread. Goodness me ... that that, apparently, has to be said.

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#28299 - 03/03/14 09:41 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: artie505]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
Artie, it's a broker website -- as I stated at the outset. You have to log in. Then my problem occurs. Im not telling anybody how to log in.

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#28300 - 03/03/14 11:29 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: RHV
Artie, it's a broker website -- as I stated at the outset. You have to log in. Then my problem occurs. Im not telling anybody how to log in.

You didn't specify that your problem occurs only when you're logged in to...which Website was it, again, and if that's the case, you've omitted what may be a critical piece of your puzzle; don't forget that what others are experiencing are certainly similar to, but not necessarily identical to, your time-outs.

I most assuredly don't expect you to provide your own log-in details, but some others may use the same broker and have their own, other others may choose to create their own accounts in order to experiment, and still others may choose to experiment without logging in (if your broker's Website offers visitors' browsing options as does mine).

But MacManiac's contributions may have made all of that inconsequential, and we anxiously await your response.
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#28302 - 03/03/14 11:45 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: RHV
"Do you realize that you hijacked your own thread...spun it off in a totally unrelated direction to complain about others having veered off tangentially?"

I hijacked and spun off my own thread in an unrelated direction by complaining about the too many irrelevant entries re: my Safari Time Outs problem in the thread I started?

How did I managed to hijack or spin off my own thread given that my complaint came last in the conversation? Most times the present does not cause things to happen in the past.

So, Artie, you must therefore be saying that my complaint hijacked and spun off my thread by foreclosing future advice re: my problem that has YET to come from FTM.

Artie, I dearly hope you are right in that. So … will you please forgive my complaint and advance that advice. I keenly await it. My problem is still unsolved.

In the meantime, what happened in my thread on Safari Time Outs at FTM was a good example of how a forum should NOT work. The helpers took over on topics of interest to them but unrelated to my problem. When the OP returns to his/her thread, all that’s in it MUST be clearly related to the OP’s problem. If the helpers want to help each other to be better educated in their helper tasks, they should do it in a helper education section of the forum — like the lounge but aimed instead at techie stuff. But not, of course, in an OP's thread. Goodness me ... that that, apparently, has to be said.

I'm in an awkward position, hardly being anywhere near as pure as the driven snow, but I'll respond by saying that perpetuating this line of discussion here, rather than in the FTM Feedback Forum, would be as inappropriate as you've found the other digressions in this thread to be.

Mods: It might benefit all FTMers if this line of discussion were to be relocated.


Edited by artie505 (03/04/14 12:55 AM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
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#28305 - 03/04/14 01:45 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
And, by the way, I've alluded to my culpability but never apologized for it; I should have had the presence to realize that even though your thread had digressed, my question crossed a line.

Sorry.
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#28306 - 03/04/14 05:48 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
So now that you and Artie have had your chance to clear the air....let's move on with resolving your issue successfully together.

I'm still waiting on some feedback from you to see where we are.....please.

(EDIT:) FWIW, I used the Console as described in the external post from Linc referenced above to look at the underlying errors on the only Safari stall I've experienced (just now) since updating to 10.9.2 / Safari 7.0.2 and found that it was a networking error under TCP/IP that complained of no path to host for a web page that hung....and when I refreshed/reloaded the page it came in immediately.


Edited by MacManiac (03/04/14 07:36 AM)
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#28308 - 03/04/14 08:47 AM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: MacManiac]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
Thanks MacM -- and DK too for your interventions on my behalf. The problem continues with Safari 7.0.2.

Yes ... when I get a timeout page and reload that page, I get the page I was seeking. But if on that page I try to open a link and then get another timeout, reloading does nothing.

My Safari 7.0.2 works fine except on one website. And it often works fine there for a period of time. I am unable to detect any regularity in my behaviour that produces the time outs -- though I have been carefully watching in the hope of finding such a regularity.

I said earlier that Safari time outs were fairly commonplace. I was not, DK, referring to time outs under 10.9. The timeout problems I found mostly had to do with past versions of Safari. But if there was a past solution, it might also be a present solution. But there was, as I remember, a paucity of past solutions.

Right now, I don't have enough free time to want to pursue my problem. I'm just using Firefox. When I get more free time, I'm going to go back to those who administer my broker website -- and bother them again.

Thanks again for your interventions on my behalf, and goodbye for now.

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#28314 - 03/05/14 03:35 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Well, I don't have a solution to report, but I can say what HASN'T resolved things just yet....

1. Clearing caches
2. Changing DNS
3. Resetting user ACL's and permissions
4. Assigning a different User Agent (Chrome and Firefox work ONCE)
5. Looking for an entry in the Console while stalled...NOTHING shows!!!

So, whatever the issue is remains a mystery to me.....
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#28315 - 03/05/14 04:32 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: MacManiac]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
MacM -- I'm not now going back to my old problem. Giggle, giggle.

But ... what did your stall -- you mentioned previously, I think, one only -- consist in? I would say that a Request Time Out is a stall. But you didn't have that, did you? So what did you have?

Also ... I find this embarrassing. Though I DID have two Time Outs after installing 10.9.2, I have not had one for 48 hours. A delayed fix? Not likely ... but who knows?

Your are still in San D and flying? I remember you well and with appreciation on the forerunner Mac forums to FTM -- from way back. My wife and I are now in the Coachella Valley -- our sixtieth winter there. But at age 80, I don't how many more winters we can escape from the low temps of Winnipeg, Canada.

Best wishes to you and yours. Roy



Edited by RHV (03/05/14 04:34 PM)

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#28316 - 03/05/14 06:01 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
MacManiac Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Yep, currently in San Diego, and like yourself (I'm assuming) I've joined the ranks of RV ownership and in the last sixteen months (since purchasing a 1995 time capsule Trek 2430 turbo diesel) I've accumulated nearly 16,000 miles of experience. I was in Indio in January. Got to say there's a lot I find enticing in the RV world.....

My stalls / failure to complete a page load / interminable delays don't seem to be related to any specific site but MAY be related to the MiFi network that I am currently using....when I shift to the other available WiFi network, it seems as if the stalls MIGHT abate somewhat, but that's purely subjective at this point. It's merely a small annoyance for me as it stands, but when a page load stops progressing intermittently and requires a refresh/reload to get going again enough times it becomes a major annoyance.

I'll be heading back north to Oregon later this week....and not long after that, I should be back to work at that "far, far away" place overseas.

I really wish I could pin this performance issue down to one specific cause, but it just isn't happening so far.
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#28419 - 03/15/14 05:58 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
JM Hanes Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Quote:
Most of the posts do not relate to my problem….. Your guys/gals did not seem to know that my problem is fairly widespread….


I've only been a sporadic visitor for some time, so I don't know if this is part of some other ongoing discussion, but the dialogue in this thread all seemed pretty relevant to the subject to me, despite my personal lack of tech expertise (or maybe because of it!). Back when I was in regular attendance, it seemed to me that we expected everybody, not just the moderators, to bring anything they've learned, or scouted out, or experienced elsewhere, to the table. I know whenever I do stop by to ask for help, I also look around to see if there's a question I might be able to help answer too, before I leave. We thought of ourselves as participants, not (non-paying) clients.

At the risk of not speaking directly to your own request, I'd like to thank you for mentioning the developer menu, which I had completely forgotten. It includes a useful feature which will help with a problem I laid out in a separate query. Sometimes an idea that may seem a little off topic, will actually stimulate someone else's thinking in a way that ends up resolving a question which might otherwise have gone unanswered.

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#28439 - 03/16/14 08:39 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: JM Hanes]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
Good that the Develop menu was of some use to you. And thanks for mentioning that. Always good to know that one was useful.

But my reference to that menu was not at all off topic (not even a little) -- just in case you might be suggesting that it was. Using that menu allowed me in an easy way to empty my Safari caches -- an alleged possible cure for my timeout problems with Safari that was recommended by others.

I do realize that irrelevant material brought into the discussion of an OP's problem can help others who have problems other than the OP's. I do not to challenge that. I challenge the idea that such material -- especially if discussed at length -- should be allowed by the forum moderators in the OP's post, rather than being set up under another topic heading.

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#28446 - 03/17/14 01:23 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
JM Hanes Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
I was mostly reacting to your expectations as an ostensible "client." If I'd refreshed the page, and seen all the subsequent comments, before I submitted my own, I probably wouldn't have posted it.

In any case, I didn't mean to suggest that the develop menu was off topic -- sorry for the confusing syntax. That really was just a thank you. In fact, I've used the drop-down menu to good effect more than once today, already.

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#28450 - 03/17/14 04:12 PM Re: Time Outs With Safari [Re: RHV]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: RHV
But ... what did your stall -- you mentioned previously, I think, one only -- consist in? I would say that a Request Time Out is a stall.


Well....it depends on what you mean by a "stall."

An HTTP Request Timeout is a particular HTTp error that means, put simply, your browser initiated a connection with a Web site but then either the browser didn't send any requests to the Web site or the Web server didn't reply back in a timely manner.

They're maddeningly difficult to track down, they can happen at random, and they usually don't depend on the browser itself. I wonder if it's just plain statistical fluke when one browser gets it and another don't; they can happen just base on the load on the server or the routing of information between you and the server.
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