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#26721 - 09/12/13 06:37 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: joemikeb]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
I may have fiddled with something but not by a third party.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsowner
My time Machine backs up everything on my computer every few minutes.

As designed, Time Machine does its backups every 60 minutes or 3600 seconds. Unless you have been fiddling with the settings with a third party utility or from the command line.
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#26722 - 09/12/13 09:24 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower
All I know is that some radio websites won't run unless I use Java. Click-to-Flash doesn't do it. I can't remember where I got the Java, if I downloaded it or it came with Adobe Flash when I downloaded that. But I needed Java to play the music.

Originally Posted By: tacit
Starting with Java 1.6.0_37, there is no Java Preferences app any more. It's in the release notes for the OS X Java update:

"This update also removes the Java Preferences application, which is no longer required to configure applet settings."

So if you have a version of the Java Preferences app on your computer, it's an older version, intended for an older version of Java. I have seen scattered reports that you can run it on modern OS X systems and change the settings, but it doesn't actually do anything.

You missed tacit's point, Rita... You can't find Java Preferences without your external being plugged in because the OS X 10.8.3 you're running uses a version of Java that no longer uses JP (Java, incidentally, came with OS X...was not a d/l.), and whichever version of JP you're finding on your external has nothing to do with what's on your internal, i.e. changing its settings does not affect your Mt. Lion installation. (That's along the lines of what I was looking for when I asked what's on your external. It sounds like you've got some earlier version of OS X than 10.8.3 on it. )

What apparently got you back up and running was the restore, but it looks like we'll never really know what happened.

(And, by the way, ClickToFlash has nothing to do with Java...Adobe Flash, only.)


Edited by artie505 (09/12/13 09:27 PM)
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#26723 - 09/12/13 10:05 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: tacit]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: tacit
Starting with Java 1.6.0_37, there is no Java Preferences app any more. It's in the release notes for the OS X Java update:

"This update also removes the Java Preferences application, which is no longer required to configure applet settings."

So if you have a version of the Java Preferences app on your computer, it's an older version, intended for an older version of Java. I have seen scattered reports that you can run it on modern OS X systems and change the settings, but it doesn't actually do anything.

By way of clarification, that apparently applies only to Lion (maybe) and Mounty.

Java for Snowy, v 1.6.0_51-b11-456, still uses /Apps/Utils/Java Preferences.
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#26724 - 09/13/13 03:01 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
(Java, incidentally, came with OS X...was not a d/l.)

Actually, as of Lion, Java does not come with OS X, so if Rita's MacBook Pro is more recent than of Snow Leopard vintage, she would've had to have downloaded it.
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#26725 - 09/13/13 05:19 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: dkmarsh]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
By way of clarification, that apparently applies only to Lion (maybe) and Mounty.

For OS X 10.7.3 and above when an app requests Java you are still offered the option to download and install it, but in this case it is from Oracle not Apple. Whether you install "automatically" or manually Java is downloaded from http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp. The current version is Java 7 Update 40. When it is installed a Java Preference Pane is added to System Preferences. Clicking on that preference pane opens a new window with five different settings tabs: General, Update, Java, Security, and Advanced. The Java tab allows users to…

Quote:
View and manage Java Runtime versions and settings for Java applications and applets
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#26727 - 09/13/13 08:09 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
My Macbook Pro came with Lion and then I upgraded. Maybe that explains it. I also downloaded Adobe in the past I think, and it still didn't seem to work so I ditched it. I could never find it. I redownloaded it recently. Anyway, now I know why it was on my external drive. On my external drive I have Time Machine, my hard drive, Lion and Mt. Lion!!

Rita


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: tacit
Starting with Java 1.6.0_37, there is no Java Preferences app any more. It's in the release notes for the OS X Java update:

"This update also removes the Java Preferences application, which is no longer required to configure applet settings."

So if you have a version of the Java Preferences app on your computer, it's an older version, intended for an older version of Java. I have seen scattered reports that you can run it on modern OS X systems and change the settings, but it doesn't actually do anything.

By way of clarification, that apparently applies only to Lion (maybe) and Mounty.

Java for Snowy, v 1.6.0_51-b11-456, still uses /Apps/Utils/Java Preferences.
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#26728 - 09/13/13 08:12 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: joemikeb]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Right. That's the preference pane that I have, but I can only get it from my external drive. I could download it again and put it on my HD but I'm not going to unless I have to. Things seem to be working now.

Thank you.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
By way of clarification, that apparently applies only to Lion (maybe) and Mounty.

For OS X 10.7.3 and above when an app requests Java you are still offered the option to download and install it, but in this case it is from Oracle not Apple. Whether you install "automatically" or manually Java is downloaded from http://www.java.com/en/download/index.jsp. The current version is Java 7 Update 40. When it is installed a Java Preference Pane is added to System Preferences. Clicking on that preference pane opens a new window with five different settings tabs: General, Update, Java, Security, and Advanced. The Java tab allows users to…

Quote:
View and manage Java Runtime versions and settings for Java applications and applets
_________________________
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iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119

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#26732 - 09/14/13 12:44 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for setting me straight, but I'm confused... Did Lion come sans Java from the get-go, i.e. 10.7.0, and, if so, how does

Originally Posted By: joemike
For OS X 10.7.3 and above when an app requests Java you are still offered the option to download and install it, but in this case it is from Oracle not Apple.

fit in? (The 10.7.3 part, I mean.)

And am I understanding correctly that even though Java is now d/l'ed directly from Oracle, Apple updates it?
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#26733 - 09/14/13 01:43 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Thanks for setting me straight, but I'm confused... Did Lion come sans Java from the get-go, i.e. 10.7.0, and, if so, how does

Originally Posted By: joemike
For OS X 10.7.3 and above when an app requests Java you are still offered the option to download and install it, but in this case it is from Oracle not Apple.

fit in? (The 10.7.3 part, I mean.)

And am I understanding correctly that even though Java is now d/l'ed directly from Oracle, Apple updates it?

As I recall it worked this way. Prior to the release of Lion, Apple announced their intention to drop the Apple developed version of Java in favor of the Oracle version. This made all kinds of sense because Java on the Mac had always trailed the official Java release because Apple had to have the Oracle release in order to port it to the Mac (and frankly have other programming priorities). Lion and Mountain Lion did and do not ship with Java in the box, but if you launch an application like NeoOffice, OpenOffice, Moneydance, etc. that require the Java Virtual Machine to run, Lion, Mountain Lion, and I assume Maverick will throw up a screen indicating Java is not installed and offering to download and install it. In 10.7, 10.7.1, and 10.7.2 downloaded Java was still downloaded from Apple and I have no idea if it that was the Apple version or the Oracle version. By the time 10.7.3 was released Oracle was offering Java for Mac on their web site and in OS X 10.7.3 or later the OS X "Do you want to install Java" prompt is directed to Java.com which transparently detects what platform you are on and downloads the appropriate version. There is another page on the site where you make the choice.

This new neatly gets around the delay in new Java releases for Macs and makes Java security updates arrive days quicker. Additionally it frees Apple of the cost of porting Java to the Mac. IMO it is unfortunate Java is not supported through the App Store and has its own update notification system. Personally I wish Apple would allow Java to be distributed through the App Store so it could take advantage of Maverick's automatic update feature. There are some Java apps in the App Store, why not Java itself?
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#26734 - 09/14/13 10:27 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for the explanation; it answers most of what I was up in the air about except for how the Apple Java updates fit into the picture?

(You've made a good point about Java and the App Store; I wonder whether it's an Apple or Oracle decision?)
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#26735 - 09/15/13 10:00 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie505
... how [do] the Apple Java updates fit into the picture?

The following is a simplified and condensed version dealing with that aspect of Java:

Java is a programming language/software platform allowing software development on any one platform (read: OS), and running it on any other platform with minimal adaptation (via a platform specific 'virtual machine'). This makes it ideal for web based applications, but also generates security issues. Originally developed by Sun Microsystems, proprietary Java is currently owned by Oracle. Apple provided the required adaptation for Mac OS X through version 6, including any updates. This adaptation made use of the Java Preferences utility, but was no longer included by default with Mac OS X starting with Lion in the summer of 2011, after Apple had decided to discontinue development of its own virtual machine. That was taken over by Oracle, which made its version 7 for Mac OS X available early 2012, including the relevant updates. Version 7 uses a System Prefs panel for settings etc. Both Apple and Oracle versions will run on current Macs, and may be present concurrently. At this time Apple is still providing security updates for its version 6.

While Apple's main version adaptations (e.g., Java 4, 5 and 6) tended to lag far behind those from Sun/Oracle (often more than a year), it was a tad quicker on the draw with security updates. Those became an issue as soon as malware developers started to target Java, and in the Mac community interest in them peaked with the 2011-2012 Flashback trojan outbreak affecting 600,000+ Macs. Apple chose to respond relatively quickly, within about half a year from the start of the infestation, but within days after it becoming widely known. The current setup with Oracle providing the most functionally advanced Java (v7 and up) for Mac OS X is more responsive and faster, even though Apple may disable Oracle Java updates if it considers them problematic, and the user still must choose to apply updates (it's neither automatic nor mandatory).

Does this make sense?
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#26736 - 09/15/13 05:55 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: plantsower]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Java is not part of, and doesn't come with, Flash. (Java and Flash were invented for different purposes by different companies; Flash is currently owned by Adobe, whereas Oracle owns Java.)

Usually, the computer will prompt you to download Java if you need it. However, Java is a bit of a security issue, with vulnerabilities that can be used to make a smoking ruin of your computer, figuratively speaking. For that reason, Apple no longer ships computers with Java, and they recommend you not use the Java Web browser plugin or use sites that require Java. In fact, if you enable Java in your browser and then don't use it for a certain length of time, I believe it disables itself again to prevent security problems.
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#26746 - 09/16/13 11:53 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: alternaut]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> Does this make sense?

Absolutely! Thanks.

(So Apple's updated Java v 6 is "equivalent" to Oracle's Java v 7?)
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#26749 - 09/17/13 11:15 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie505
(So Apple's updated Java v 6 is "equivalent" to Oracle's Java v 7?)

No, the Java version numbers are the same across platforms/OSes, and indicate different functionalities not unlike different OS versions. So there is both an Apple and an Oracle Java version (1.)4, 5 and 6 to name just a few, but there is only an Oracle Java version 7, because Apple didn't develop one. Apple's version 6 is equivalent to Oracle's version 6, but the latter isn't available for Mac OS X. And as I mentioned above, Apple's version releases trailed Sun's/Oracle's by quite some time.
[The Java platform consists of several program components, including a development kit (JDK) for Java developers and a runtime environment (JRE) for client computers. The JDK and the corresponding JRE have the same version number too, regardless of platform.]

Altogether there have been eight (somewhat oddly numbered) main versions of Java, the most current of which is 7. Each version has multiple minor updates. Since these versions differ in functionality, certain Java apps may only run on a particular version. This is both possible and practical, because different Java versions (read JREs) may be present simultaneously on a particular computer, and apps pick a compatible version from that list.
Because of this, depending on your needs as defined by the Java programs you want to run, you may have to have several Java versions installed at the same time. The 'old' Java Prefs utility will list them under its General tab, and allow you to turn each on on or off at will. Presumably, the new System Prefs panel will do the same (I can't check right now*). Regardless which one you use, this setting will affect which Java programs can run.

Things got a tad more complicated now this choice may have to be made for both security and functionality reasons. The former is critical for web based apps accessed via your browser, something you should be extremely reluctant to do. I wouldn't want to run any Java app on the web with anything less than the most current version of the latest JRE (Oracle's v7) and only when I'm 200% sure the server is clean and safe. Security is much less of an issue when running local Java apps** present on your Mac, as long as they don't require internet access, and your Mac is clean.

*) Likewise, I have not been able to verify if the current Java System Prefs panel allows both Apple (e.g., 5, 6) and Oracle (7) versions to coexist, but I'd expect that to be possible.

**) See this post in the Lounge's Cyber-Security thread for examples.
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#26756 - 09/18/13 01:09 AM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: alternaut]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Whew!!! I think I've got it (including understanding why Apple is maintaining Java 6 for Lion and Mounty, as well as Snowy, users, which contributed greatly to my confusion).

Many thanks for the time and effort you put into making a complicated subject understandable. smile
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#26769 - 09/18/13 06:24 PM Re: Listening to Internet Radio [Re: artie505]
slolerner Offline


Registered: 08/25/09
Loc: New York City
My 2 cents here, for what it's worth: I use my iPod Touch as an internet radio using an app like Tune-in Radio and connecting it to my wireless network. I put it in an iLove boom box. Might run better as an app than through a browser, like it worked ok in iTunes. Any iPod that can connect to a wireless network can be an internet radio, and you are not confined to your computer or its speakers.
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