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#22765 - 07/27/12 04:26 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I use SD and TM, although on different drives. You could use them on separate partitions of the same drive. TM machine gives you the ability to revert to any system, or restore files, from many different days. SD allows you to revert from only the last clone, but you can boot from a SD hard drive, which you can't do with TM (at least previous to Mountain Lion).
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#22766 - 07/27/12 04:29 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: jchuzi]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Thanks, Jon. I'll probably do it on a separate partition. I'm not ready to spend more money on more drives!! laugh

Rita
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#22770 - 07/27/12 06:30 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I would not recommend keeping a Time Machine backup and a SuperDuper (or CCC) clone on the same hard drive volume.

A Time Machine backup and a clone are two different things and serve different, even very different purposes. Consider this scenario with a Super Duper or CCC clone
  1. You make a CCC or SuperDuper backup of your system on Monday night
  2. Tuesday you accidentally (or intentionally) delete a file
  3. Tuesday night you make your regular CCC or SuperDuper backup
  4. Wednesday you realize that file you deleted had information in it that you desperately needed so you go looking for it in the cloned version of your HD. But it is not there because you overwrote the clone the last time you cloned your drive.

With Time Capsule the scenario would be more like:
  1. You accidentally or intentionally delete a file
  2. an hour, day, week, or even months later you realize that file had information in it that you critically need.
  3. You open Time Machine and scroll back in time to a point where you know you had the file
  4. You find the file, using the Time Machine version of Finder, select it, and click the button labeled "Restore"

The clone is great for recovering your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure. Time Machine can recover your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure but it will take longer. On the other hand the clone is useless for recovering that file you deleted with your great aunt Matilda's that you deleted six months ago unless you only clone your system every seven months or longer which pretty much makes the clone a historical artifact.
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#22771 - 07/27/12 06:33 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: joemikeb]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Aren't the Time Machine and the Time Capsule two different things? Just checking.

Rita


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I would not recommend keeping a Time Machine backup and a SuperDuper (or CCC) clone on the same hard drive volume.

A Time Machine backup and a clone are two different things and serve different, even very different purposes. Consider this scenario with a Super Duper or CCC clone
  1. You make a CCC or SuperDuper backup of your system on Monday night
  2. Tuesday you accidentally (or intentionally) delete a file
  3. Tuesday night you make your regular CCC or SuperDuper backup
  4. Wednesday you realize that file you deleted had information in it that you desperately needed so you go looking for it in the cloned version of your HD. But it is not there because you overwrote the clone the last time you cloned your drive.

With Time Capsule the scenario would be more like:
  1. You accidentally or intentionally delete a file
  2. an hour, day, week, or even months later you realize that file had information in it that you critically need.
  3. You open Time Machine and scroll back in time to a point where you know you had the file
  4. You find the file, using the Time Machine version of Finder, select it, and click the button labeled "Restore"

The clone is great for recovering your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure. Time Machine can recover your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure but it will take longer. On the other hand the clone is useless for recovering that file you deleted with your great aunt Matilda's that you deleted six months ago unless you only clone your system every seven months or longer which pretty much makes the clone a historical artifact.
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#22772 - 07/27/12 10:33 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Time Machine is the app; a Time Capsule is Apple's expensive solution to backing up your Mac with Time Machine.
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#22775 - 07/28/12 02:56 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I would not recommend keeping a Time Machine backup and a SuperDuper (or CCC) clone on the same hard drive volume.
I recommended using separate partitions. That means that the TM backup and the clone would, effectively, be on different volumes. As far as I can tell, the only downside to this scheme would be a catastrophic failure of the entire hard drive, which would take down both partitions. Otherwise, it should work as well as having a different hard drive for each backup.
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Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#22776 - 07/28/12 05:32 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: jchuzi]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The downside to partitioning a Time Machine drive is the smaller space available for Time Machine will force data to drop off the back end of the backup stream sooner because of the reduced space.
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#22778 - 07/28/12 07:51 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Yeah, I looked at Time Capsule and thought "What?" $300.00? Anyway, I'm glad I just got a regular old external hard drive. I did, BTW, get 1 TB as suggested.

Rita
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#22779 - 07/28/12 07:54 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: jchuzi]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Hi Jon:

Yeah, that's what I was going to do. That seemed reasonable to me. Not quite understanding what Joe Mike said. Does that give you pause for thought, or are you staying with the partition thing on one drive?

I don't know how to partition, but I think I will see how to do it better once I get the drive into my hands.
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#22781 - 07/28/12 08:01 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: plantsower
OK, I downloaded Super Duper. When I back stuff up, is it a good idea to use Super Duper and Time Machine just to make sure, or is that overkill?

Rita


Originally Posted By: alternaut
I can second Jon's recommendation of SuperDuper!, even though CCC would work as well. SD, however is free, albeit without some features like scheduling, for which the shareware fee is necessary. But you don't need those paid features in normal use.


It is definitely a very good idea to use both Time Machine and something like SuperDuper.

Time Machine backs up on an hourly basis, where a clone copy is a back up of one particularly moment. After that moment passes and things change, where is the back up for that?

On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues.
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#22782 - 07/28/12 08:17 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: Ira L]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Hi Ira:

You said: "On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues."

I would have thought Time Machine would have that capability. confused

Jon said something similar.

Maybe with Mountain Lion.

Rita
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#22783 - 07/28/12 08:22 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
There are advantages with both TM and clones, but they don't live easily on the same (partitioned) drive, unless it's big enough*. This is because the clone partition may need to be the size of the HD to be cloned (even if only partly used), and the TM partition should ideally be several times that.
(In your case, in which you have a relatively small amount of data to which you don't expect to add much more in the way of new or changed material, the TM size 'multiplication factor' may be smaller, as the past covered by TM on it may be large enough with the backup HD you have.)

Joemikeb's comment that data on the TM will eventually 'drop off the back end of the backup stream', means that when the partition is full TM will start deleting the oldest data to make room for the new. The net effect of this is that the smaller the drive or partition, the less far back in time TM will be able to go.

Take home message: if you only have one drive of a size less than let's say 2-3 times your Mac's HD, go for the TM solution which serves both purposes, albeit requiring more time for full recovery compared to a clone.

*) this doesn't cover the option to restart from a separate (clone) drive if the TM or the Mac HD should have problems doing so.
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#22784 - 07/28/12 08:34 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: alternaut]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Ok. Thanks for the explanation. Look what I found:

How to make a bootable drive in Mt. Lion


Another way to make a bootable backup of Mountain Lion

Rita

][/url]
Originally Posted By: alternaut
There are advantages with both TM and clones, but they don't live easily on the same (partitioned) drive, unless it's big enough*. This is because the clone partition may need to be the size of the HD to be cloned (even if only partly used), and the TM partition should ideally be several times that.
(In your case, in which you have a relatively small amount of data to which you don't expect to add much more in the way of new or changed material, the TM size 'multiplication factor' may be smaller, as the past covered by TM on it may be large enough with the backup HD you have.)

Joemikeb's comment that data on the TM will eventually 'drop off the back end of the backup stream', means that when the partition is full TM will start deleting the oldest data to make room for the new. The net effect of this is that the smaller the drive or partition, the less far back in time TM will be able to go.

Take home message: if you only have one drive of a size less than let's say 2-3 times your Mac's HD, go for the TM solution which serves both purposes, albeit requiring more time for full recovery compared to a clone.

*) this doesn't cover the option to restart from a separate (clone) drive if the TM or the Mac HD should have problems doing so.


Edited by plantsower (07/28/12 01:22 PM)
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#22787 - 07/28/12 11:04 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
SuperDuper and Time Machine work in very different ways.

SuperDuper copies your hard drive over to your new hard drive. Time Machine makes a file on your new hard drive and copies all your data into that. If you use both, you have two separate backups, taking up twice as much space on your hard disk. Your hard disk would have to be, at an absolute minimum, twice as big as the amount of space you are using on your internal disk if you want to use both.
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#22788 - 07/28/12 11:18 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: tacit]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Well, then it's a good thing I got a 1 TB hardrive!! Two would have been better but...

Thanks for the explanation on the differences.

Rita


Originally Posted By: tacit
SuperDuper and Time Machine work in very different ways.

SuperDuper copies your hard drive over to your new hard drive. Time Machine makes a file on your new hard drive and copies all your data into that. If you use both, you have two separate backups, taking up twice as much space on your hard disk. Your hard disk would have to be, at an absolute minimum, twice as big as the amount of space you are using on your internal disk if you want to use both.
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#22793 - 07/28/12 01:10 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Your first link doesn't work, Rita...
I see http://www.coolestguyplanettech.com/make-a-bootable-usb-drive-of-os-x-10-8-mountain-lion-using-the-recovery-partition/%3Cbr%20/%3E in Safari's address bar, but I can't get to your linked doc unless I lop off everything that follows "partition." (http://www.coolestguyplanettech.com/make...overy-partition)
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#22794 - 07/28/12 01:23 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Thanks, Artie. Fixed it!!

Rita
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MacBook Pro - Sierra 10.12.6, Safari 11.1




iPhone 5s Version 9.3.2 iTunes 12.4.0.119

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#22805 - 07/29/12 01:51 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: MG2009]
Artzy68 Offline


Registered: 07/29/12
Apparently Apple claims 200 new features but I think that includes many as improvements. I don't use iCloud at all and during install they give you a 'Set Up iCloud' panel and all you do is uncheck that box if you don't want iCloud.

With Gatekeeper, ML gives the Mac better security than ever (which is not saying much; you should add third-part security). But I use Snow Leopard all the time and just fool around with these later editions of OS X on another partition.

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#22806 - 07/29/12 02:01 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: MG2009]
Artzy68 Offline


Registered: 07/29/12
During the install, you'll be presented with a window that says something like 'SetUp for iCloud'. It asks 'do you want to install iCloud' Just click on that and you'll be presented with a 'Yes' beside a box that by default is checked. Just uncheck the box if you don't want iCloud.

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#22810 - 07/30/12 09:34 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Hi Ira:

You said: "On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues."

I would have thought Time Machine would have that capability. confused

Jon said something similar.

Maybe with Mountain Lion.

Rita


I was assuming your cloned copy would be on its own hard drive. Therefore, if your computer's physical drive died, you would still be able to start things up and hit the ground running, albeit with a snapshot of how things were the last time you made your clone. You could fix your computer's hard drive at some later time.

If you use Time Machine, your computer's hard drive has to be functional. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. If not, now you have to install a working drive and then restore from Time Machine. What you end up with here is how things were the last time Time Machine backed things up, which is likely to be more recent than a cloned copy.

As others have pointed out, each approach has its strengths and weaknesses. And has been said, if you can only do one of these options, I too would go with Time Machine.
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#22813 - 07/30/12 10:23 AM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: Ira L]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
OK, this may sound weird, but if I have backed up my hard drive on an external drive via Time Machine and/or Super Duper, wouldn't Time Machine work from either partition since it's been backed up, also?

In other words, you said my hard drive would have to be functional to use Time Machine. But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies? Maybe I'm just not getting this completely. I have made progress, though. This used to be foreign territory. smile

Thanks.

Rita


Originally Posted By: Ira L
Originally Posted By: Mplantsower
Hi Ira:

You said: "On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues."

I would have thought Time Machine would have that capability. confused

Jon said something similar.

Maybe with Mountain Lion.

Rita


I was assuming your cloned copy would be on its own hard drive. Therefore, if your computer's physical drive died, you would still be able to start things up and hit the ground running, albeit with a snapshot of how things were the last time you made your clone. You could fix your computer's hard drive at some later time.

If you use Time Machine, your computer's hard drive has to be functional. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. If not, now you have to install a working drive and then restore from Time Machine. What you end up with here is how things were the last time Time Machine backed things up, which is likely to be more recent than a cloned copy.

As others have pointed out, each approach has its strengths and weaknesses. And has been said, if you can only do one of these options, I too would go with Time Machine.
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#22815 - 07/30/12 12:30 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: plantsower
In other words, you said my hard drive would have to be functional to use Time Machine. But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies?

You don't boot one drive off of another. You just boot a drive. What he meant was that TM can't restore your data without a functional drive to restore it to.

If you are backing up by cloning an internal drive onto an external, and the internal dies, you can then boot off the external and get back up and running immediately. The disadvantage is that you no longer have a backup; the external that used to be your backup is now your running copy, and if anything happens to it you're SOL.

So, in the event that your internal dies, your first order of business is to buy a replacement drive, and clone your backup onto the replacement. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing it up as before.

If you back up using Time Machine, and your internal drive dies, your first order of business is to get a replacement drive and restore your data onto it from Time Machine. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing up as before.

The only difference is that a clone backup gives the option, if you're really in a hurry to get back up and running, to boot off the clone, knowing that doing so leaves you with no backup.

If you can afford the time to wait for the replacement drive to arrive, and the time it takes to restore, both methods are equally effective. Restoring your data to the new replacement is just as fast whether you're restoring it from a clone or from Time Machine.

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#22817 - 07/30/12 12:50 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: ganbustein]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Okay. Thanks. And I will definitely get a new hard drive ASAP should this happen!!

Rita




Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Originally Posted By: plantsower
In other words, you said my hard drive would have to be functional to use Time Machine. But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies?

You don't boot one drive off of another. You just boot a drive. What he meant was that TM can't restore your data without a functional drive to restore it to.

If you are backing up by cloning an internal drive onto an external, and the internal dies, you can then boot off the external and get back up and running immediately. The disadvantage is that you no longer have a backup; the external that used to be your backup is now your running copy, and if anything happens to it you're SOL.

So, in the event that your internal dies, your first order of business is to buy a replacement drive, and clone your backup onto the replacement. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing it up as before.

If you back up using Time Machine, and your internal drive dies, your first order of business is to get a replacement drive and restore your data onto it from Time Machine. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing up as before.

The only difference is that a clone backup gives the option, if you're really in a hurry to get back up and running, to boot off the clone, knowing that doing so leaves you with no backup.

If you can afford the time to wait for the replacement drive to arrive, and the time it takes to restore, both methods are equally effective. Restoring your data to the new replacement is just as fast whether you're restoring it from a clone or from Time Machine.
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#22822 - 07/30/12 04:28 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: plantsower]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies?

If I understand that question, the answer is that although Time Machine can be used to create a bootable volume, a Time Machine backup is not bootable in and of itself (as opposed to a cloned backup which is).
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#22824 - 07/30/12 06:24 PM Re: MOUNTAIN LION [Re: artie505]
plantsower Offline


Registered: 09/13/09
Loc: Burson, CA
Right. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks, Artie.

Rita


Originally Posted By: artie505
> But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies?

If I understand that question, the answer is that although Time Machine can be used to create a bootable volume, a Time Machine backup is not bootable in and of itself (as opposed to a cloned backup which is).
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