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#20681 - 02/17/12 02:43 AM File/folder sorting
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I think this is the correct forum for this.

My daughter is running OS X 10.5.8 and is looking for a means to sort the contents of a folder with all folders grouped and all files grouped, i.e. not interspersed. (It's Windows functionality.)

The closest I can come to it is a "Find" sort in list view, but she wants something that works in all views.

Anybody got a clue?

Thanks. smile
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#20687 - 02/17/12 05:45 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
If it's anything like Lion, then open the folder, click on the "gear" (⚙) symbol and select arrangement desired.
(My apologies if this isn't exactly what you're/she's looking for or the functionality doesn't exist 'below' Lion.)

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#20688 - 02/17/12 07:51 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
list mode must be sorted. icon view can be "kept arranged by" to "none" for arbitrary arrangement. If the items are too large, open view options for that folder and switch to small icon size. almost as good as list view. but no extra columns.
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#20689 - 02/17/12 10:08 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
An old hack here: "Change the position of folders in sort by Kind views " -- but i think there are also 3rd-party PrefPanes that will do this (can't recall any names).

Hmm, that 2004 hack contains a final comment which indicates it may not work in leopard. I'm almost certain there was another article after 2007 which provided the same functionality... but searching is tedious. [a 3rd-party prefpane is probably a better way to go.]


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/17/12 10:15 AM)

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#20692 - 02/17/12 11:07 PM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Replying to Hal, and in reverse order, for convenience...

Hal's hack does nothing more than relocate the folders in a list view "Kind" sort from the middle of the list to its top...useful, but inapplicable as respects what I'm looking for.

V1's suggestion covers only icon view...not all views.

grelber, on the other hand, gets a brass ring on this go-round (in one of those fortuitous instances in which an "under the hood" change in OS X that nobody's stumbled on gets discovered by somebody who doesn't know enough to know it's not there and goes looking for it). (Edit: I note that had grelber not researched Lion's functionality the changes to Leopard and Snow Leopard may never have come to light.)

If my memory serves me, "Kind" sorts were possible only in list view in Panther; fast-forward to Leopard, though, and they turn up as command-J options for icon and column views, and fast-forward again to Snow Leopard, and they are Finder work-wheel options as well.

The sort algorithm changed a bit from Leopard to Snow Leopard (exact same folder), and neither of the two is precisely what I'm looking for, but I think either will suffice.

I checked VersionTracker every day for years, and I've checked MacUpdate daily since VT's demise, and I've never run across anything offering "Kind" sort functionality, although you'd think that somebody would have noticed the change in OS X and taken advantage of it (or maybe it's not possible [*]).

Thanks to all for kicking in.

[*] See next post.


Edited by artie505 (02/18/12 02:23 AM)
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#20693 - 02/18/12 12:12 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I just checked out your hack, and the file that needs to be changed does not exist in either Leopard or Snow Leopard, (Edit: because it moved from the Application Services umbrella framework to the the Core Services umbrella framework [See this]. [Changing it after locating it was not productive.])

It turns out, though, that its functionality is included in Lion (See "Arrange by…" at 12 Tips for Finder in Mac OS X Lion), but, as far as I'm concerned, it displays waaay too much eye candy.


Edited by artie505 (02/18/12 01:14 AM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

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#20695 - 02/18/12 03:03 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
grelber, on the other hand, gets a brass ring on this go-round (in one of those fortuitous instances in which an "under the hood" change in OS X that nobody's stumbled on gets discovered by somebody who doesn't know enough to know it's not there and goes looking for it). (Edit: I note that had grelber not researched Lion's functionality the changes to Leopard and Snow Leopard may never have come to light.)

Huuhhh?

Plenty of folks have stumbled on the Arrange by pop-up menu under Show View Options for Finder windows in Icon view and Column view. It's been there since Tiger. Or are you saying something else?

I thought you were looking for a way to sort window contents into file and folder subgroups, not a folder subgroup floating in the middle of an alphabetized list of files.
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#20696 - 02/18/12 03:27 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Quote:
grelber, on the other hand, gets a brass ring on this go-round (in one of those fortuitous instances in which an "under the hood" change in OS X that nobody's stumbled on gets discovered by somebody who doesn't know enough to know it's not there and goes looking for it). (Edit: I note that had grelber not researched Lion's functionality the changes to Leopard and Snow Leopard may never have come to light.)

Huuhhh?

Plenty of folks have stumbled on the Arrange by pop-up menu under Show View Options for Finder windows in Icon view and Column view. It's been there since Tiger. Or are you saying something else?

I thought you were looking for a way to sort window contents into file and folder subgroups, not a folder subgroup floating in the middle of an alphabetized list of files.

1. grelber stumbled on, and, more importantly, was the first to point out, the fact that "Kind" sorts, which were limited to list view prior to Panther (at least), were extended to icon and column views in Leopard (at least). (I never ran Tiger.) He also stumbled on the fact that the command-J "Arrange by" options became available under the Finder work-wheel in Snow Leopard.

2. What I'm looking for is a way to get column view to display folders at the top of each column and files (alphabetically) beneath them. A "Kind" sort currently uses an algorithm that has the folders stuck between two groups of files [*]. Hal's hack may have moved the folders to the top at some point, but it no longer does (as far as I can tell).

[*] Edit: I'll correct myself. That applies to ~/Library/Preferences, which contains an odd assortment of file types; in a test with a folder containing only folders and .dmgs, the folders were at the bottom, and in another test with a folder containing only folders and .logs, the folders were at the top. The sort algorithm seems to be more or less alphabet based.


Edited by artie505 (02/18/12 04:43 AM)
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#20697 - 02/18/12 05:59 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505

1. grelber stumbled on, .... He also stumbled on the fact that the command-J "Arrange by" options became available under the Finder work-wheel in Snow Leopard.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't me, since I never ran Snow Leopard (although I've used it on others' Macs) and never had occasion to explore it for such options. tongue
But thanks for the confidence. cool

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#20698 - 02/18/12 07:30 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
1. grelber stumbled on, and, more importantly, was the first to point out, the fact that "Kind" sorts, which were limited to list view prior to Panther (at least), were extended to icon and column views in Leopard (at least). (I never ran Tiger.)

hahaha... surely you jest. Sort by kind has always worked in views other than list. ALWAYS. [well, i started with System 6.0.4, and it worked in icon view there.]


Originally Posted By: artie505
He also stumbled on the fact that the command-J "Arrange by" options became available under the Finder work-wheel in Snow Leopard.

Again, you must be kidding.
a) he didn't stumble upon it,
b) it's there in Leopard, and
c) i would have assumed EVERYBODY knew that already. [shouldn't require a help thread for a seasoned Mac user.]


Originally Posted By: artie505
2. What I'm looking for is a way to get column view to display folders at the top of each column and files (alphabetically) beneath them.

Wait... what? Where did "column" view come from? There is nothing in post #1 about column view.

EDIT/ column 'view' is a completely different animal. As has been discussed in earlier threads, i regard it as column mode... since it has a more profound effect on browsing/navigating the filesystem than all other views. [e.g., it overrides the 'Always open in ___ view' option for example.]


Originally Posted By: artie505
A "Kind" sort currently uses an algorithm that has the folders stuck between two groups of files [*]. Hal's hack may have moved the folders to the top at some point, but it no longer does (as far as I can tell).

And i already said that too. You'll have to search for the updated hack... or search for a prefpane as also suggested.


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/18/12 07:46 AM)

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#20699 - 02/18/12 07:39 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: grelber]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

I think what artie means is that he stumbled upon these facts after reading your post. Other contributors to the thread may already have been aware of them.
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#20700 - 02/18/12 07:41 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
b) it's there in Leopard,

though oddly enough, it's only there in icon view.

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#20701 - 02/18/12 07:52 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
Wait... what? Where did "column" view come from? There is nothing in post #1 about column view.

It's included implicitly in "she wants something that works in all views."

I think the inclusion of sorting by kind in column view wasn't added until Tiger. Check out this Google Books snippet from Mac OS X Panther in a nutshell.
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#20702 - 02/18/12 07:58 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
...it's only there in icon view.

Not so. It's there (for me, anyhow) in column view as well. (It's not there in Cover Flow view, but that's no doubt because Cover Flow view is just a list with a street view.)
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#20703 - 02/18/12 07:59 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Okay, TotalFinder is one example... and it also allows for tabbed Finder windows, which is cool.

Warning: the last time i tested TotalFinder, it had an undesirable effect of altering the drag-n-drop behavior in Finder. E.g., while we are working in another app (i.e., Finder not frontmost), a click-and-hold on a file or folder in a window would always instantly activate Finder. I couldn't tolerate that limitation... but perhaps the developer has fixed it by now.

http://totalfinder.binaryage.com/folders-on-top

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#20704 - 02/18/12 08:01 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: dkmarsh]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Not so. It's there (for me, anyhow) in column view as well.

There on the toolbar's action menu? [the work-wheel as artie calls it]
Not seeing it on our 10.5.8 machine here.

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#20705 - 02/18/12 08:14 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

No, my mistake. (I don't have the Action button in my toolbar as a general rule; I thought you meant that Show View Options was only available in the Action menu for icon view.)
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#20708 - 02/18/12 09:12 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: dkmarsh]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
One problem with all this is: "why"?
Is it just to have Mac OS look like Windows?

I think when users desire such features, it's almost always an indication that they aren't aware of other (often simpler) ways of doing things on a Mac.

So the question is 'why folders on top?'
Is that supposed to be better for purposes of navigation?
Or is it only to feel comfortable in familiar-looking surroundings?

Sometimes it's as simple as something like users not realizing they can press the letter k to jump to the first item whose name starts with k... and then hit tab to proceed alphabetically from there.

Or --instead of drilling down a hierarchy step-by-step --Spotlight can be used to jump directly into a folder (from any program), by typing part of its name and arrowing to (or clicking on) the right result.

To rely on something like folders-on-top (and haxies such as TotalFinder) is to:
a) become dependent on it, and then feel deprived when using another Mac,
and
b) not learn about alternate routes, which might be every bit as effective.


EDIT/
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Quote:
Wait... what? Where did "column" view come from? There is nothing in post #1 about column view.

It's included implicitly in "she wants something that works in all views."

okay... but i still regard column view as being more of a (browser/navigation) mode, rather than any particular window's view. It warrants specific mention and requires special attention.


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/18/12 02:08 PM)

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#20752 - 02/21/12 01:49 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> One problem with all this is: "why"?
Is it just to have Mac OS look like Windows?


Beyond the fact that Windows actually does include some, albeit not much, functionality that is considered both desirable and sorely lacking in OS X (by both switchers and native Mac users), the specific answer is that my daughter carries work home from her office PC to her Mac, and seeing the same file hierarchy on both machines optimizes her workflow.

> "Okay, TotalFinder is one example..."

First, here's the updated hack: "Force Your Mac to Sort Folders on Top of Files (Windows Style)"

While it's useful, it screws up the rest of the file hierarchy, because, since it only works with a kind sort, it leaves files sorted alphabetically by suffix, then by name, rather than strictly by name (Edit: as does Windows), and I suspect that OS X's default behavior of interspersing folders and files in strict alpha order may be preferable.

Thanks for directing me to TotalFinder; it does, indeed, turn the trick. (Path Finder does, too.)

Now, here's the rub: My daughter's not from the spenders, and TF will cost her $18 + $30 to upgrade to Snow Leopard, while PF's Leopard version costs $40 + $20 to upgrade should she ever upgrade past Leopard, which will test the importance of her workflow.

I wonder why nobody has addressed the issue other than by including the fix in a "functionality package" (or has the simple solution for which I'm looking slipped through the cracks in every search I've done)?

In closing: A whole lot of the confusion in this thread cold have been avoided had one of FTM's "seasoned Mac users" immediately responded to my initial request

Quote:
"for a means to sort the contents of a folder with all folders grouped and all files grouped, i.e. not interspersed [....] [...] that works in all views."

by pointing out that sort by kind has been available in all views since Tiger, but that although it doesn't necessarily group folders at the top there's maybe a hack that does.

At any rate, thanks to all who helped this thread reach this point.


Edited by artie505 (02/21/12 01:58 AM)
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#20766 - 02/21/12 06:54 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
In closing: A whole lot of the confusion in this thread cold have been avoided had one of FTM's "seasoned Mac users" immediately responded to my initial request

Quote:
"for a means to sort the contents of a folder with all folders grouped and all files grouped, i.e. not interspersed [....] [...] that works in all views."

by pointing out that sort by kind has been available in all views since Tiger, but that although it doesn't necessarily group folders at the top there's maybe a hack that does.

huh???

What was this then? confused >>> Sort by kind has always worked in views other than list. ALWAYS. <<<

[strange thread]


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/21/12 06:56 AM)

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#20776 - 02/22/12 12:00 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Originally Posted By: artie505
In closing: A whole lot of the confusion in this thread cold have been avoided had one of FTM's "seasoned Mac users" immediately responded to my initial request

Quote:
"for a means to sort the contents of a folder with all folders grouped and all files grouped, i.e. not interspersed [....] [...] that works in all views."

by pointing out that sort by kind has been available in all views since Tiger, but that although it doesn't necessarily group folders at the top there's maybe a hack that does.

huh???

What was this then? confused >>> Sort by kind has always worked in views other than list. ALWAYS. <<<

[strange thread]

A day late, and on top of that, not only did V1's post not mention that a "Kind" sort was an Icon (or Column) View option, but your initial response pointed me to a List View hack without even suggesting that "Kind" sorts were available in other views (both of which inadvertently supported my belief that "Kind" sorts were available only in List View).

Much confusion!
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#20782 - 02/22/12 03:06 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

You're assuming that any seasoned Mac users following this thread understood what you were looking for from the outset. You may have greater faith in the clarity of your posts than is warranted by empirical evidence, though.

In your initial post, you concluded, "The closest I can come to it is a "Find" sort in list view, but she wants something that works in all views." It appears that from your perspective, this statement clearly implies that if only a "Find" sort worked in other views as it does in list view, the case would be closed.

However, earlier in the post you said this: "My daughter is running OS X 10.5.8 and is looking for a means to sort the contents of a folder with all folders grouped and all files grouped, i.e. not interspersed. (It's Windows functionality.)"

Even a cursory web search for such functionality on a Mac reveals that the results of a sort by kind—in any view—fall woefully short of that Windows functionality, as far as Windows users looking for such functionality on a Mac are concerned. In any directory with a decent number of files and folders in it, the folders will appear grouped together somewhere in the middle of the files, and even if, via hacks like "Hal's," one succeeds in moving the grouped folders to the top of the list, the files themselves will be alphabetized only within file type.

So in a well-populated folder—my Downloads folder is a good example—one might well have hundreds of files displayed in their own groups: applications, Excel files, disk images, DWGs, GIFs, "tarballs," HTML documents, install packages, JPEGs, OpenType fonts, plain text documents, PDFs, PNGs, RTFs, Safari Extensions, Stuffit archives, XML documents, TIFF images, Word files and ZIP archives.

This is so manifestly different from a folder organized alphabetically with folders at the top—"Windows functionality"—that it seems to me clearly not to fit the bill of your initial request. In fact, I didn't reply to your initial post for this exact reason.

Later, you said, "Hal's hack does nothing more than relocate the folders in a list view "Kind" sort from the middle of the list to its top...useful, but inapplicable as respects what I'm looking for." Exactly how this is inapplicable might have been clear to you, but not to everyone: I took that statement to mean that although moving folders to the top was a step, the remaining files still suffered from the undesired state of being grouped by file type rather than alphabetized.

Imagine my surprise, therefore, when grelber was awarded one of your much-coveted brass rings for his role in uncovering a phenomenon—availability of arranging by kind in other than list views—which I was not only aware of, but had already rejected posting about since it didn't seem to meet the criteria of the initial request!

Perhaps there was some unwarranted reading between the lines by some of us, but I think you bear equal responsibility for any confusion in this thread.
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#20788 - 02/22/12 08:49 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: dkmarsh]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
I'm not confused. I'm simply a carrier.
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#20895 - 02/28/12 06:18 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
no idea how well this one works, but it appears to be new and free (for now anyway): XtraFinder

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#20900 - 02/28/12 08:22 AM Re: File/folder sorting [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
no idea how well this one works, but it appears to be new and free (for now anyway): XtraFinder

Many thanks. smile

The very first thing I see is something I've never seen before, namely that Xtrafinder (Edit: 0.1) is a flat package...opened, and presumably meant to be installed, by Pacifist.

Edit: More after I see the dentist.


Edited by artie505 (02/28/12 08:26 AM)
Edit Reason: Correct wording
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