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#20839 - 02/25/12 02:31 PM Re-Journal? Re-Index?
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
I'm assuming I need to do something like fixing whatever journaling data I had, or re-indexing Spotlight. Yes, I'm making guesses...so be patient.

Spotlight doesn't seem to be consistent in getting results. For example, when it didn't locate a folder using one of the words in the folder name, I asked it to find the folder by typing in the entire folder name. Nada.

The file was in Apple Mail. I did a bit of testing and used other part and full file names with various results. Sometimes a single word would find some files with that word in the name, but not others.

I opened Disk Utility and found that the Enable/Disable button is not functional. Cocktail was able to confirm that journaling is enabled.

So, all this leads me to think a database or index must be incomplete.

Am I on the right track? Where do I go from here?


Edited by ryck (02/25/12 02:32 PM)
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#20840 - 02/25/12 04:36 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
If you want to have reset Spotlight so that it re-indexes your drive, go to System Preferences > Spotlight and select Privacy. Drag the hard drive icon into the Privacy pane and drop it there. Then, select the hard drive and click - to remove it. Spotlight will then commence re-indexing. (You can do the same thing with OnyX if you select Maintenance and then click the Rebuild tab.)

If you really want to disable journaling, Disk Utility can do it but it's not obvious. Select the volume and then Option-click the File menu. Disable Journaling will appear as one of the choices.


Edited by jchuzi (02/25/12 04:47 PM)
Edit Reason: add instructions for disabling journaling
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#20841 - 02/25/12 06:25 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
Kevin M. Dean Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Florida
It's worth noting that Journaling has nothing to do with Spotlight.

Spotlight should show email attachments, but note that Spotlight doesn't search system files such as files contained in the Library by default. To do that, do a Command-F in the Finder and then select the Kind pop-up and select "Other..."

There you can find System files and check to add it to the menu so it can be used as one of your search options to find files such as files containd
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#20843 - 02/25/12 07:24 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Kevin M. Dean]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
Spotlight should show email attachments, but note that Spotlight doesn't search system files such as files contained in the Library by default. To do that, do a Command-F in the Finder and then select the Kind pop-up and select "Other..."

There you can find System files and check to add it to the menu so it can be used as one of your search options to find files such as files containd

^ This.

And saving searches is a good way to speed things up for frequently used patterns.

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#20844 - 02/26/12 03:23 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If you want to have reset Spotlight so that it re-indexes your drive, go to System Preferences > Spotlight and select Privacy. Drag the hard drive icon into the Privacy pane and drop it there. Then, select the hard drive and click - to remove it.

Thanks. I've just done that and it's just completed the re-index but still doesn't find the folder. I also own OnyX, so I'll give it a try in the morning.

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If you really want to disable journaling, Disk Utility can do it but it's not obvious. Select the volume and then Option-click the File menu. Disable Journaling will appear as one of the choices.

No, that's not something I'd do. I had thought that the answer might be found in Disk Utility and therefore looked there. i.e. had journaling somehow got turned off?

When I saw that the enable/disable button wasn't even functional, I wondered if Disk Utility might itself be faulty and thereby be contributing to the issue.


Edited by ryck (02/26/12 03:37 AM)
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#20848 - 02/26/12 07:59 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Just a thought (trying to be simple about this): Is that folder included in any items that appear in Spotlight's Privacy pane? Also, is the folder checked in Spotlight's Search Results pane?
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Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#20849 - 02/26/12 08:20 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Kevin M. Dean]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
It's worth noting that Journaling has nothing to do with Spotlight.

Thanks for the info...journaling was just a guess on my part although I still wonder why the enable/disable button isn't functional in Disk Utility.

Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
Spotlight should show email attachments, but note that Spotlight doesn't search system files such as files contained in the Library by default. To do that, do a Command-F in the Finder and then select the Kind pop-up and select "Other..."

Thanks for that, too. It's good to know.
_________________________
ryck

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#20850 - 02/26/12 08:26 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Is that folder included in any items that appear in Spotlight's Privacy pane? Also, is the folder checked in Spotlight's Search Results pane?

No, not in the Privacy pane. And, yes, Folders is checked off in Search Results

I am now "post-OnyX" and I've done a bit more testing. It seems that the folder in question isn't the only one that Spotlight doesn't want to find. It's not finding any folder in Mail.

I've also tried Kevin's command-F at the Finder level and the result is the same - nothing from Mail. EDIT: I changed the search parameter and asked command-F to find PDFs with the word and it found PDFs attached to Mail messages.

I am now going to try removing the spotlight.plist from my User preferences. EDIT: Done, no change.


Edited by ryck (02/26/12 08:37 AM)
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ryck

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#20851 - 02/26/12 09:42 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
For lack of a better idea, try the old voodoo of using Disk Utility to Repair Disk and Repair Permissions. If you don't feel like waiting to boot from the 10.6 DVD, you can run Verify Disk to see if anything comes up before you take the plunge. This may not help but it won't hurt.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#20858 - 02/27/12 01:22 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
....try the old voodoo of using Disk Utility to Repair Disk and Repair Permissions.

I've done that, using my clone drive, but it doesn't change anything.

I've also, in addition to re-indexing with Onyx, used TechTool Pro 6 to rebuild the directory and optimize files and the volume. After optimization I re-indexed again. So far I've done pretty much everything, except stand on my head and spit nickels, and nothing changes.

I could live with Spotlight not finding folders in Mail as I pretty much know where they all are. However, if Spotlight isn't working properly, the concern becomes "What is it not finding on other searches?" I did a couple of quick searches with words that should have returned a pile of results but got minimal results.

EDIT: I'm now wondering if there is a more 'global' issue that's affecting searches. I just downloaded EasyFind to see what it would do.

I gave EasyFind a three word phrase that I know is in more that 100 Word documents and I asked it to look in Files. It didn't find even one.

I then asked it to find, using any of the words, and It found a pile of stuff but still not one of the Word documents.


Edited by ryck (02/27/12 01:42 AM)
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ryck

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#20859 - 02/27/12 02:32 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
How about (re)applying the Combo 10.6.8 Update? This is a shotgun approach but has been known to cure weird issues.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#20860 - 02/27/12 05:58 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> I gave EasyFind a three word phrase that I know is in more that 100 Word documents and I asked it to look in Files. It didn't find even one.

I then asked it to find, using any of the words, and It found a pile of stuff but still not one of the Word documents.


Funny you should mention that, because the same thing happened to me just yesterday, when I found that for some odd reason I had to have "Include: Package Contents" checked in addition to "Search for: File Contents" before EasyFind would find words in (Edit: some) text docs. (I keep "Comparison: Ignore Case" checked by default.)

Edit: Hmmm... Maybe not, because I just found that EF is not finding words in Excel spreadsheets.


Edited by artie505 (02/27/12 06:28 AM)
Edit Reason: Fix up
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#20861 - 02/27/12 06:56 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
How about (re)applying the Combo 10.6.8 Update?

It made a marginal change. I used the same three word phrase, that's in more than 100 Word documents, and Spotlight found three of them....two from last month and one from 2009.


Edited by ryck (02/27/12 07:35 AM)
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
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#20862 - 02/27/12 07:12 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
At this point, the only suggestion that I can make is to reinstall 10.6. I have run Archive and Install with 10.5 but it appears to be a bit different in 10.6 (and I have never done it). Still, according to that link, you should be able to do the equivalent and keep your files, folders and settings. The instructions for A&I apply to 10.5 as well as previous OS versions.
_________________________
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#20863 - 02/27/12 08:55 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: jchuzi]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
At this point, the only suggestion that I can make is to reinstall 10.6. I have run Archive and Install with 10.5 but it appears to be a bit different in 10.6

Ouch! That's not something I'm in a great hurry to do, given the potential pain in the _______ if it doesn't go right. I've done a bit of checking and it seems Snow Leopard doesn't have Archive and Install - that it does the install and keeps all your settings et cetera in the process. However, Murphy's Law and all that.....

I've looked at my Snow Leopard disk (10.6) and the PDFs on it don't say anything about this. I'll check a bit more....perhaps SL reinstall is worth a new thread.

Thanks for all your help.
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS Mojave 10.14.6
Canon MX710 Printer
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Time Machine on 1TB LaCie USB-C
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#20866 - 02/27/12 09:56 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
Kevin M. Dean Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Florida
What's the name of the folder you're searching for and where is it located on the drive? Which search field are you using.... Mail, Spotlight, Finder, etc.?
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#20868 - 02/27/12 10:21 AM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Kevin M. Dean]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
What's the name of the folder you're searching for and where is it located on the drive? Which search field are you using.... Mail, Spotlight, Finder, etc.?

I'm using Spotlight and the folder is in Mail. Assume the folder name is "A Big Mystery" and I conduct a search just using "Big".

Spotlight only finds a Font folder containing "Big" even after all the re-indexing, et cetera.

EasyFind locates a couple of folders, neither of which is the one I want.

I tried Find Any File and it can locate six folders with "Big" in the name, including the one I want.

Adding to the mystery is that Spotlight no longer seems to be able to look for text inside a document. The Spotlight test I ran, with a three word phrase that's inside at least 100 Word documents, only generated three results.

After a re-indexing it still only found three...except that they were a different three.


Edited by ryck (02/27/12 10:22 AM)
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#20871 - 02/27/12 01:51 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
Kevin M. Dean Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: ryck

I'm using Spotlight and the folder is in Mail. Assume the folder name is "A Big Mystery" and I conduct a search just using "Big".


I'm just trying to understand your thinking here. The folder is a mail folder as seen in the left column of your mail app?

First, I'm not sure why one would be searching for that in the first place, but anyway... if it is that type of folder, it's not actually a folder in the finder. It's a .mbox which is recognized as a "Mail Mailbox" kind rather than a "Folder". Also since mail is stored in your Library, the Spotlight search will not find items there in raw file terms, but only in message metadata form.

If I Find in the Finder and include my system files, I get the .mbox files in my results when searching for my Mail "Folders".

If that's not the type of folder you're searching for, I think it needs to be clarified further, because I'm having trouble determining what a Folder in Mail would be otherwise.
_________________________
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#20873 - 02/27/12 01:58 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Seems you have many problems there, and me here with no solutions.

Originally Posted By: ryck
I used the same three word phrase, that's in more than 100 Word documents, and Spotlight found three of them....two from last month and one from 2009.

With respect to Spotlight and Word specifically —it all relies on a special file (or files) for those two to have a workable association. Typical location for those items would be /Library/Spotlight/

ls -ld /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft*
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 Jan 21 2009 /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter


If something is wrong with that item (or it's missing maybe... or there are more than one butting heads with each other), then Spotlight won't be able to search Word docs with any accuracy.

Or perhaps there is another .mdimporter file located somewhere else getting into the mix...

mdimport -L

^ will list all that Spotlight is currently employing. [they can even reside inside apps themselves]

And...

mdimport -L 2>&1 |grep -i microsoft

will filter out all except those which have the string Microsoft in their name.

Other than that, ::shrug::


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/27/12 02:09 PM)

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#20875 - 02/27/12 04:29 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Kevin M. Dean]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
I'm just trying to understand your thinking here. The folder is a mail folder as seen in the left column of your mail app?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
First, I'm not sure why one would be searching for that in the first place, but anyway...

I have Mail "Folders" nested several layers deep (up to 8 or 10) and, in this case, I was in a hurry and thought a quick way to find the "Folder" would be to use Spotlight.

Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean....
if it is that type of folder, it's not actually a folder in the finder. It's a .mbox which is recognized as a "Mail Mailbox" kind rather than a "Folder". Also since mail is stored in your Library, the Spotlight search will not find items there in raw file terms, but only in message metadata form

I did not understand that a "Folder" in Mail is not actually a Folder. I see the Icon and assume that's what it is. I do not know what "message metadata form" means.

Originally Posted By: Kevin M. Dean
If I Find in the Finder and include my system files, I get the .mbox files in my results when searching for my Mail "Folders".

I have to take your word on that. I thought I would check (using Command F) just for the educational aspect but could not see, given the apparent options, how I would add system files to the search.

However, it's not a search I would normally use anyway. I've always found Spotlight more than adequate....until now.

I am happy to accept that Spotlight won't find what I mistakenly thought was a "Folder" in Mail. However, the disconcerting issue now is the fact that Spotlight is not locating files it should be finding....such as Word documents. That is very worrisome.
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
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#20876 - 02/27/12 04:44 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Hal Itosis]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Seems you have many problems there, and me here with no solutions.

But thanks for taking a shot at it anyway (although I have no idea what the results mean). This is what I got using your Terminal instructions:

I entered:

ls -ld /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft*
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 Jan 21 2009 /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter


and got:

firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$ ls -ld /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft*
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 18 Dec 2009 /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Entourage.mdimporter
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 21 Jan 2009 /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter
firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$ drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 Jan 21 2009 /Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter



I entered:

mdimport -L

and got:

firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$ mdimport -L
2012-02-27 17:34:23.011 mdimport[705:903] Paths: id(501) (
"/Library/Spotlight/iWork.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Font.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Archives.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Audio.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Entourage.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Image.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Application.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/StuffIt.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/AppleWorks.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/RichText.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/iWeb.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/CoreMedia.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Chat.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/iPhoto.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/PS.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Mail.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/vCard.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/PDF.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/GBSpotlightImporter.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/iPhoto8.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Bookmarks.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/SystemPrefs.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/iCal.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/MIDI.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/QuartzComposer.mdimporter",
"/System/Library/Spotlight/Automator.mdimporter"
)
firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$



I entered:

mdimport -L 2>&1 |grep -i microsoft

and got:

firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$ mdimport -L 2>&1 |grep -i microsoft
"/Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Office.mdimporter",
"/Library/Spotlight/Microsoft Entourage.mdimporter",
firstname-lastnames-imac:~ myname$


Edited by ryck (02/27/12 04:44 PM)
_________________________
ryck

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#20877 - 02/27/12 06:01 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
I thought I would check (using Command F) just for the educational aspect but could not see, given the apparent options, how I would add system files to the search.

1. In Finder, type Command-F. A Finder search window opens. Enter your search term(s).

2. Click the plus sign at the right side of the window to add another search condition.

3. Click on Kind, and choose Other… from the pop-up menu. A sheet descends with a long alphabetical list of attributes.

4. Scroll down to System files and select it. It's not a bad idea to check the In Menu checkbox while you're at it; this will save having to invoke the Other… sheet in any future case that you want to include System files in your search.

5. Click OK, then click on don't include and choose include from the pop-up menu (that's assuming Snow Leopard engages in the same counterintuitive practice as Leopard of assuming that though you've just included the System files attribute you don't want to make use of it).
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#20878 - 02/27/12 06:16 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: Kevin M. Dean]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

You can also find mailboxes without including System files by selecting File Extension as the attribute and typing mbox in the text box, or by navigating to ~/Library and searching for the mailbox by name.
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#20879 - 02/27/12 06:47 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
Kevin M. Dean Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: ryck

I have Mail "Folders" nested several layers deep (up to 8 or 10) and, in this case, I was in a hurry and thought a quick way to find the "Folder" would be to use Spotlight.


I think you would need to upgrade to Lion where you can search within mail for Mailbox names (including Folders). Double-check by using the search field in your version of Mail to see if it shows a result when you search for a Mail folder.

Otherwise, the problem you're having then is it's just not tracking mail "folders" to be found within mail. Even under Lion, the Mail folders don't show under spotlight... only in Mail itself.

Originally Posted By: ryck

I did not understand that a "Folder" in Mail is not actually a Folder. I see the Icon and assume that's what it is. I do not know what "message metadata form" means.


Think of it like folders in other apps like your Safari bookmarks. While it may look like a folder, doesn't necessarily mean it's a folder in the finder or something that can be searched on outside the app itself. By "message metadata form", I was referring to search for an email or an attachment to the email in spotlight and the result sends you to that message in Mail itself rather than sending you to the actual file in the Finder.

Originally Posted By: ryck

I have to take your word on that. I thought I would check (using Command F) just for the educational aspect but could not see, given the apparent options, how I would add system files to the search.


I previously mentioned how to do that and dkmarsh has now followed up with detailed steps that should help, but in the end it'll just show you in the Finder and not it Mail itself where the folder / mbox is.

Originally Posted By: ryck
However, the disconcerting issue now is the fact that Spotlight is not locating files it should be finding....such as Word documents. That is very worrisome.


As was mentioned if the word importer is not installed properly that would affect the ability to search by content of word files. Also make sure spotlight is not blocked form the folders where the documents are stored via the system preferences.
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#20880 - 02/27/12 09:37 PM Re: Re-Journal? Re-Index? [Re: ryck]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: ryck
When I saw that the enable/disable button wasn't even functional, I wondered if Disk Utility might itself be faulty

You cannot disable journaling on the boot volume or on your Time Machine volume. That's why the button would be disabled for such volumes.

But as mentioned by others, journaling has nothing to do with Spotlight. Journaling is insurance for the files that make up your directory. What may seem to the user to be a single simple change (for example, renaming a file) may actually be a whole series of updates to the directory (delete the old file while remembering its location on disk and other metadata, then create a file with the new name but referring to the old location and metadata. If adding the new name requires splitting a block in the B*tree in the file catalog, a new block has to be taken from the free blocks list, information needs to be copied to it to turn one over-full block into two half-full blocks, the new block has to be linked in, and the free blocks list needs to be updated. etc.)

The danger is that your computer may fail right in the middle of that (loss of power, system fault, etc.), leaving the catalog in very bad shape. To counter that, all the changes are written to the journal first, then applied to the catalog. If the computer crashes, it can check the journal when it comes back up to see what, if anything, it was in the middle of when it crashed, and can finish the job.

The useful lifetime of information in the journal is measured in seconds at most. Indeed, the journal is only actually read from when recovering from a crash. It never needs to be "rebuilt".

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