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#20547 - 02/06/12 10:48 PM La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting
Jacks Offline


Registered: 02/06/12
I have a new 2TB La Cie b/u drive which, when plugged into my 27" iMac, prevents it from booting. Turning the drive on & off during the boot process fixes the problem. It is as if it is sleeping and won't automatically awaken.

I exchanged it for a new drive and it does the same thing.
OS10.6.7, brand new d2 Quadra 2TB La Cie External drive.

Thanks - Jack

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#20548 - 02/06/12 11:14 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Jacks]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
This is a shot in the dark, but it's possible the new drive is formatted for Windows computers (NTFS) and has a partition map that's causing the Mac to have problems. I would suggest using Disk Utility to reformat the drive for Mac and see if that solves the problem.
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#20550 - 02/07/12 12:33 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Jacks]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I agree with tacit. If you're using Time Machine as your backup mode, then it should have reformatted your new drive according to its needs, namely Mac OS Extended (Case-sensitive, Journaled).

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#20558 - 02/07/12 04:27 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
it should have reformatted your new drive according to its needs, namely Mac OS Extended (Case-sensitive, Journaled).

I would urge caution using Case-Sensitive, it is unnecessary for Time Machine use and has been known to cause problems with some application because not all developers are careful with their use of case sensitive filenames etc. Apple's recommendation is Mac OS Extended (Journaled).
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#20560 - 02/07/12 10:47 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I would urge caution using Case-Sensitive, it is unnecessary for Time Machine use and has been known to cause problems with some application because not all developers are careful with their use of case sensitive filenames etc. Apple's recommendation is Mac OS Extended (Journaled).

If so, why is it the default for Time Machine (at least in Lion)? When I plugged in my WD 1TB USB drive, Lion didn't give me a choice, automatically reformatting it to said standard immediately upon my choosing to use it as my backup disk.

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#20561 - 02/07/12 11:42 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: joemikeb]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
the thread grebler is remembering is >this<

the topic is little known and seldom discussed.
the first place i recall seeing it mentioned was at readynas: http://goo.gl/rurpo
[think i still have a post there on page 11.]

edit/ yep, and the hdiutil man page still doesn't document that filesystem abbreviation (in 10.6.8 anyway), perhaps on purpose?]


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/07/12 11:52 PM)

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#20562 - 02/07/12 11:53 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
the thread grebler is remembering is >this<

Indeed it is/was. Thanks for referencing it (External hard drives for backups) ... although its discussion may be "overkill" for the current thread.

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#20563 - 02/07/12 11:58 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: grelber]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: grelber
Indeed it is/was. Thanks for referencing it (External hard drives for backups) ... although its discussion may be "overkill" for the current thread.

wink perhaps, --- i was just following the previous two posts (i.e., you started it). wink
[maybe this sidetrack will get detached and become its own thread.]

So it goes.

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#20564 - 02/08/12 12:36 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
And I'm still waiting for a response to my query about TM's default formatting of a backup drive.

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#20565 - 02/08/12 08:08 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: grelber
And I'm still waiting for a response to my query about TM's default formatting of a backup drive.

The best answer to your question can probably be found in this Apple Knowledge Base article. Basically it says either Mac OS Extended (Journaled) or Mac OS Extended (Case-Sensitive, Journaled) may be used but the most common format is Mac OS Extended (Journaled).

The experience of users has indicated there are often problems with third party applications when Case-Sensitive is activated because the developers are often not careful with the case in file names resulting in otherwise inexplicable failures.
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#20566 - 02/08/12 09:04 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: joemikeb]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The best answer to your question can probably be found in this Apple Knowledge Base article. Basically it says either Mac OS Extended (Journaled) or Mac OS Extended (Case-Sensitive, Journaled) may be used but the most common format is Mac OS Extended (Journaled).

Words are one thing, but reality is different. 100% of TM target disks which were "auto-formatted" by TM itself are case-sensitive.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
The experience of users has indicated there are often problems with third party applications when Case-Sensitive is activated because the developers are often not careful with the case in file names resulting in otherwise inexplicable failures.

That's true for boot volumes and certain apps (e.g., Adobe), but the fault there probably lies with the 3rd-parties themselves.

TM has to be prepared for anything. By using case-sensitive for its backup filesystem, it won't screw up the works in the event that the user backs up a case-sensitive source volume.


Originally Posted By: grelber
And I'm still waiting for a response to my query about TM's default formatting of a backup drive.

See previous paragraph.

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#20567 - 02/08/12 10:00 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
TM has to be prepared for anything. By using case-sensitive for its backup filesystem, it won't screw up the works in the event that the user backs up a case-sensitive source volume.

That's what I was looking for. It's all good. cool



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#20568 - 02/08/12 10:41 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Hal Itosis]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
TM has to be prepared for anything. By using case-sensitive for its backup filesystem, it won't screw up the works in the event that the user backs up a case-sensitive source volume.



Yep, that's the key, right there.

If you have a main hard drive that is formatted without case-sensitivity, you can format a Time Machine backup disk without case sensitivity and you'll be fine. However, if the drive you're backing up is case sensitive, the TM backup must also be case sensitive.

FWIW, Macs have not been case sensitive since System 1.0. (in fact, even before that; the Lisa's operating system was not case sensitive either). By default, any computer you buy from Apple is not case sensitive.

The only reason the case sensitive option exists is for Unix developers who are using some Unix or Linux software that expects it.

In a case sensitive file system, the file names "letter-to-mom.doc", "Letter-to-Mom.doc", and "letter-to-Mom.doc" are all different filenames, and you can have all three in the same folder. In a case-insensitive file system, those three names are all considered the same.

Generally speaking, case sensitive filesystems can be a big hassle for both administrators and users. In the past, Unix filesystems have mostly been case sensitive, so there are Unix applications that rely on this (for example, by renaming an old preference file to Prefs instead of prefs and then creating a new prefs file in its place).

They originally existed because on early systems--UNIX was developed on a PDP computer with a 1.5MB hard drive--long filenames took up a lot of space. (In fact, many early filesystems had limitations of six character filenames.) Case sensitivity was a way to create more files with short filenames--you could use "Data", "DATA", and "data" as three different names. If you have a limited number of characters, you don't want to rename a preferences file from "preferences" to "preferences-old"; the names are too long. So instead you rename it from "prefs" to "Prefs" and then create a new "prefs" file.

On modern filesystems, case sensitivity tends to be a Very Bad Thing. Nowadays you'd only want to make a Mac file system case-sensitive if you had a clear and compelling reason to do so.
_________________________
Photo gallery, all about me, and more: www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

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#20592 - 02/10/12 01:54 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: tacit]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: tacit
By default, any computer you buy from Apple is not case sensitive.

My Apple //c was case sensitive, in both DOS and ProDOS file systems. wink

Actually come to think of it, it wasn't exactly case sensitive OR insensitive... it was case preferred.

SAVE X
SAVE x
(now you have two files, X and x)
DELETE X or DELETE x will delete the appropriate file
however,
DELETE X
DELETE X
will remove both. the second one does not find X so it falls back to x.

that's an interesting compromise don't you think?
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#20595 - 02/10/12 08:26 PM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: Virtual1]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Dear God. That actually sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen...the worst of all possible worlds.
_________________________
Photo gallery, all about me, and more: www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

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#20600 - 02/11/12 03:41 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: tacit]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: tacit
On modern filesystems, case sensitivity tends to be a Very Bad Thing. Nowadays you'd only want to make a Mac file system case-sensitive if you had a clear and compelling reason to do so.

Interesting thread. It has made clearer for me why there is an "Ensure Mac OS Extended Format Case Sensitivity" option on DiskWarrior with a default option of Case Insensitive. I've seen it many times without any idea what it was.


Edited by ryck (02/11/12 03:42 AM)
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iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
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#20646 - 02/15/12 10:53 AM Re: La Cie 2 TB External Drive Stops iMac from Booting [Re: tacit]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: tacit
Dear God. That actually sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen...the worst of all possible worlds.


That's why some apps won't work on a case-sensitive drive though. The program will save a file with one case, and then try to read it (or load a file bundled) using the wrong case. VERY few apps are tested to see if they work on case-sensitive filesystems.
_________________________
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