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#19519 - 12/07/11 11:25 AM hmm, weird goings on...
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)

READ: >>> The National Defense Authorization Act <<<

then watch...




I'm highly skeptical that Obama (constitutional law professor, etc,) would go for something like this... but, perhaps i'm i missing something [???]

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#19520 - 12/07/11 03:03 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Equally curious is the quasi-"media blackout" on this issue, and even the lack of interest here in this thread.

Am i being punked... or perhaps the victim of an ill-timed April Fools joke ? crazy

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#19523 - 12/07/11 03:18 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Equally curious is the quasi-"media blackout" on this issue, and even the lack of interest here in this thread.

Am i being punked... or perhaps the victim of an ill-timed April Fools joke ? crazy

Hmmm... I dunno what's up, but as horrifying as this piece of legislation sounds, my friend who reads the NY Times from cover to cover was unaware of it until I mentioned your post.

Personally, I didn't respond at first because I was shocked speechless by the possibilities.
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#19524 - 12/07/11 06:32 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
Am i being punked...?

Don't know about that, but a perusal of Salem-News.com reveals an unusual emphasis on Rwanda, preoccupation with Israel's shortcomings, distrust of vaccines and circumcision, and a generally conspiracy-heavy journalistic outlook.

See for example The 1% Wants Your Vitamins, which includes this snippet: "...the Rockefellers are funding population reduction and child vaccine plans within the UN, the WHO is primarily funded by pharma, Gates, and the Rockefellers, and the World Bank is, well, the Bankers, which is the Rockefellers which is Phama [sic]."

Hmm. Whatever did happen to Lyndon LaRouche?

Well, in this day of sound bites and short attention spans, it's nice to have the entire political/economic structure of the world outlined in a sentence or two, but can't we reduce the specters that loom over us to a single headline?

Yes: Obama Reportedly Issues Ron Paul Media 'Kill Order' as Russia Prepares For War.
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#19525 - 12/07/11 09:34 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
As you suggest, Salem-News.com's content doesn't inspire much confidence in it as a news source.
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19534 - 12/08/11 07:05 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
In line with dk's comment all I can say is consider the source.
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#19546 - 12/08/11 09:37 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: joemikeb]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Well, i don't speak for that particular site... but what are you guys trying to say? --- That this isn't happening?

What about that C-SPAN clip then?
What about the Daily Show then?
  • http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-december-7-2011/arrested-development

    Wednesday December 7, 2011
    Arrested Development
    The Senate passes a bill that allows the government to detain an American citizen indefinitely without a trial.


    [my Mac/ClickToFlash/Ghostery combination won't play video on their stupid site, and i can't find his entire routine about this NDAA Bill from yesterday's show on youtube... just a clip containing a few sound bytes.]

Did you try google?
(and i got those links at Wikipedia)

dk, don't tell me those underground news sites you once recommended are blacking you out. tongue

[you guys are too much]

I guess the point is: if i google for info on this topic, sites like cnn.com and cbsnews.com aren't conspicuous in the results... and even visiting the cnn.com or cbsnews.com websites, this story is buried somewhere (good luck), as opposed to being deemed "newsworthy". And i doubt they're mentioning it every hour on cable networks or anything like that. [i can't monitor every station]


But your reactions alone are proof enough for me.




Edited by Hal Itosis (12/08/11 10:04 PM)

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#19549 - 12/08/11 10:33 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
On the other hand, Senate Kills Effort To Ban Indefinite Military Detentions Of U.S. Citizens, which I had to do some digging to find.

Quote:
The overall Defense bill passed Thursday night 93-7, but it will now have to be meshed with a differing version in the House. As part of the detention compromise, Feinstein extracted a promise from Senate leaders that they would insist on the Senate's new language remaining in the final product. It could change, however.

The American Civil Liberties Union found the compromise troubling, and said the president should still veto the bill because even with the no-change language, the measure sets in stone the military's ability to operate inside the U.S. borders.

"The bill is an historic threat to American citizens and others because it expands and makes permanent the authority of the president to order the military to imprison without charge or trial American citizens," said ACLU senior legislative counsel Christopher Anders in a statement.

"The final amendment to preserve current detention restrictions could turn out to be meaningless and Sens. [Carl] Levin [Michigan Democrat] and Graham made clear that they believe this power to use the military against American citizens will not be affected by the new language," Anders said. "This bill puts military detention authority on steroids and makes it permanent. If it becomes law, American citizens and others are at real risk of being locked away by the military without charge or trial."

The lack of publicity and apathy (my own included) are troublesome, though.
_________________________
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#19551 - 12/08/11 11:30 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Gotta admit, i've never read an issue of Forbes in my life...

...and while i do NOT subscribe to many of Ron Paul's ideas, it's hard to ignore everything he says:

2010: Coming Economic Collapse And Possible Martial Law



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#19557 - 12/09/11 07:53 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Although what he says starts out reasonable, there's a lot of "if this, then this. if that, then that. if that, then that..." and what starts as a "ya I suppose that could happen" spirals down less and less likely as the scenario moves forward.
80% x 80% x 80% x 80% x 80% x 80% is 26% chance that we get all the way to the end.

Lots of people see all the 80%'s and think "omg there's an 80% chance of that happening!" No, that's not how statistics work.
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#19559 - 12/09/11 08:09 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
What about the Daily Show then?
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-december-7-2011/arrested-development

[my Mac/ClickToFlash/Ghostery combination won't play video on their stupid site, and i can't find his entire routine about this NDAA Bill from yesterday's show on youtube... just a clip containing a few sound bytes.]

Hmm, my Mac/ClickToFlash/Ghostery combination has no problem playing that video. Looks like a particular setting there, or something else entirely is gumming up your replay works...

That said, I share some of your incredulity at Dave's, Artie's and Joe's seeming attempt to throw out the baby with the bath water based on your source of choice. Perhaps one of the other (admittedly rather scarce) sources wouldn't have elicited that response?

Btw, I noted the discrepancy between the Levin clip you linked to in your original post above and Stewart's outtakes of the same Senate debate. Is Levin in favor of the contested issue because the White House asked for it, or is he really against and initially tried to take the relevant 'languag'e out until the WH intervened? And what about the veto the White House threatened if that language would stay in? How does that wash with Levin's claim? It seems to me that the Huffington Post reporting is at least as confusing as the Senate's manoevering (V1's percentage deal).

And while the two of you are digging up 'older' articles (Nov. 29-30 and Dec. 1-3, respectively), here's one about 100 minutes fresher (Dec. 3): Obama Should Veto Empire Over Republic, and another from Dec. 6: Marc Johnson's Letter to Congress.
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#19560 - 12/09/11 09:17 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: alternaut]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Hmm, my Mac/ClickToFlash/Ghostery combination has no problem playing that video. Looks like a particular setting there, or something else entirely is gumming up your replay works...
I can confirm this. For the record, I have Adobe Flash preferences set to block all cookies. With some sites (BBC News, for example), that prevents playing videos but this does not seem to be the case with Hal's link. I also have ClickToFlash and Ghostery.
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#19561 - 12/09/11 09:39 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Is Levin in favor of the contested issue because the White House asked for it, or is he really against and initially tried to take the relevant 'languag'e out until the WH intervened?

According to my scant knowledge, Levin is 100% behind that provision (to include American citizens), and has been from the start.

Originally Posted By: alternaut
And what about the veto the White House threatened if that language would stay in? How does that wash with Levin's claim?

Which threatened veto? (reported by who?) Anyway, Levin's claim would presumably trump any report... unless Levin (or someone) misread something.

The wording gets confused by lawyer-speak (e.g., using terms like 'not-illegal' instead of 'legal'). As far as that C-SPAN clip goes, I'm hoping it's a case of incompetence... and that someone missed the word 'not' in some sentence. It's that very confusion which makes me wish the networks were reporting about this more frequently and conspicuously.

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#19574 - 12/10/11 09:19 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Virtual1]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
80% x 80% x 80% x 80% x 80% x 80% is 26% chance that we get all the way to the end.

If i had a 1 in 4 chance of winning the lottery, i'd be ecstatic (and very rich).


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#19576 - 12/10/11 11:09 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Is Levin in favor of the contested issue because the White House asked for it, or is he really against and initially tried to take the relevant 'languag'e out until the WH intervened?

According to my scant knowledge, Levin is 100% behind that provision (to include American citizens), and has been from the start.

Originally Posted By: alternaut
And what about the veto the White House threatened if that language would stay in? How does that wash with Levin's claim?

Which threatened veto? (reported by who?) Anyway, Levin's claim would presumably trump any report... unless Levin (or someone) misread something.

Although I think it's a bit of a distraction, going into some detail about my comments/questions above is relevant to the general level of confusion about the topic, so here goes:

My comments were based on the the C-SPAN2 video link in your original post, and on the two articles in the Huffington Post linked to by you and Artie.

First that video clip. Levin repeatedly mentions the fact that it was the White House that insisted on removing the original stipulation agreed upon by the Senate Defense Committee (including Levin) that the proposed measure would NOT be applicable to US citizens. Levin doesn't explicitly state his own position in this clip, but the emphasis on who wants what out at least suggests that that wasn't his first choice, but that he's going along with it, perhaps persuaded by WH arguments and a reference to existing law applicability.

Next we get the HP article Senate Votes To Let Militar...ns Veto. On the face of it, this title suggests a Senate position in line with what the WH seems to want as gleaned from the C-SPAN2 clip. This first impression appears to be supported by the opening paragraph of the article. What isn't made explicit are the details involved: did the Senate vote on the controversial provision to let the military detain terrorism suspects on U.S. soil and hold them indefinitely without trial, or on the stipulation to exclude US citizens, as explained by Levin? The omission of the latter suggests the vote was on the former. Introducing further confusion is a remark about 1/4 down: Backers of military detention of Americans -- a measure crafted by Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich., which appears to contradict what I concluded above.

Finally we get to HP article Senate Kills Effort To Ban Indefinite Military Detentions Of U.S. Citizens, which addresses the US citizen exclusion stipulation (which Levin said the WH wanted out): the exclusion was removed (allowing US citizens to be subject to military action), but the compromise included language saying that 'current laws on the matter stand' (which would prohibit US citizens to be subject to military action).
A bit further down the WH veto reappears: 'The passage may head off a showdown with the White House, which had threatened to veto the entire bill on the grounds that the section on detentions tied the hands of counterterrorism officials in law enforcement and the military.' Presumably this refers to the compromise without the explicit US citizen exclusion, but that's not all too clear.

In summary, it seems fair to say that the reporting is anything but unequivocal. Unless one was privy to all pertinent discussions (and perhaps not even then) the proper take-home message was (and is) incredibly hard to find.
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#19577 - 12/10/11 01:19 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
yep, it's maddening... and way too important for such incertitude to reign.

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#19893 - 01/01/12 11:56 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Yesterday Obama signed the version of the NDAA bill agreed upon by the Senate last Dec. 16. Here's Al Jazeera's Feed The Stream commentary from Dec. 15, the day before the Senate compromise was reached that the WH apparently could live with:



Meanwhile, albeit pretty much as 'mustard after the meal', this development garnered some more media attention than appeared to be the case when you started this thread. I sure hope this development won't negatively affect the happiness of your New Year.
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#19894 - 01/01/12 01:07 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
thanks,

i also recently (yesterday) encountered this article (from december 18th) which spoke to the Carl Levin video i put in post #1: http://www.politicususa.com/en/ndaa-breitbarted


edit: as to 'media' :: sure, one can always google. I just thought something like this deserved more attention from the broadcast (TV) media... if not the daily evening news at 6:30 pm, then certainly the msnbc/cnn crowd. [tho i must confess i've been falling short on viewing pbs reportage of late.]


Edited by Hal Itosis (01/01/12 01:17 PM)

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#19916 - 01/03/12 03:54 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09
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#19920 - 01/03/12 08:18 AM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: dkmarsh]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
tongue laugh tongue
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#19928 - 01/03/12 12:24 PM Re: hmm, weird goings on... [Re: dkmarsh]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

Quote:
dk, don't tell me those underground news sites you once recommended are blacking you out.

Hmm...somehow I missed this little barb.

Well it wasn't only the barb you missed then, but also very those articles themselves. Because instead of discrediting the veracity of my original Salem-News.com source, you could have been saying: ''oh yes, that same info is being reported by x.com, y.com and z.com"

Thanks though. smile


The latest wrinkle seems to be —since Senator Feinstein's language was removed —that the "exemption" being touted only applies to the required detention clause. But apparently the option to indefinitely detain Americans without charges still exists... it's just no longer a mandatory military requirement.

Glory be.


Edited by Hal Itosis (01/03/12 12:35 PM)

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Moderator:  alternaut, cyn