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#19269 - 11/18/11 06:09 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Joe,
thanks, it was on join wireless, so I went back, clicked manual and chose extend.

I don't understand what you mean by devices and where to look for devices. With air radar I've been looking at the network, not devices.

Anyway, Now it wont scan, or find any network. I rebooted both computers, and did the reset again. Not easy resetting btw, with the paper clip, but I did it.

But it still cannot find any network. So I'm two steps back again. Real grueling, but I appreciate this, good thread.

NEvermind, now it's back in action.

Nope, it restarted and does not find anything.


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#19270 - 11/18/11 06:32 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Ok, did get it working again after 2 reboots and 2 resets.
It's on extend network.

Don't understand devices issue.

I'm only look at the AE utility on the imac.

says there is no dns servers or valid Ip address if that matters.
and it's on defualt passwords and settings.
says channel 5, wireless clients 1. I wonder that that means, maybe it does not see of help the laptop then?

Should I have the software - ae utility -- going on both devices?

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#19303 - 11/21/11 02:01 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Ok, Joe, I called Apple. They said the AE only work with Apple routers. I need to get a netgear extender or buy an Apple router.

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#19362 - 11/26/11 09:40 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Ok, I'm up and rolling with the Netgear extender. Thanks Joe for great tips. Netgear support though is just brutal to deal with... if their equipment fails one day, I'll buy the Apple router just for the easier support.

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#19365 - 11/26/11 11:31 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: kevs
They said the AE only work with Apple routers. I need to get a netgear extender or buy an Apple router.

It's good to hear that you got things to work with a Netgear extender, but the claim that AE only works with Apple routers is new to me. Fwiw, I got one extending a Linksys router based WiFi network and it works just dandy. Likewise several others in these forums mentioned AEs extending non-Apple hardware based WiFi networks.
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#19366 - 11/26/11 11:39 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: alternaut]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
That's what the Apple tech guy said. He shut me down right away and said that. I tried on my own, posted here, then finally got Apple support on the phone.

I jumped gun with netgear. It's not working too well.

Air Radar has signal at 80% , but the "average" at only 30%.
I don't understand average column, but suffice it to say, the connection is no better than without the netgear extender.

That said, the Netgear has created a 2nd network, with a different name, which is not really extending from my original network. I'm confused what to do to be honest.

I'm going back and forth with Negear by email, which is something you do not want to do in this lifetime if you can avoid it.


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#19374 - 11/26/11 03:27 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Make sure that the computer is connecting to the extender, not to the router. If you connect to the router, the extender won't do you any good!
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#19376 - 11/26/11 07:06 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: tacit]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks tacit, yes it seems to be connecting to the extender.

But I'm stumped here:

I'm using air radar, great software.

You have signal, signal average, and signal max.

Signal and signal average are almost always the same number.

Now as I write this:

In main workstation with imac and original router, the reading says 74% for signal and 76% for the average.

In the other room with the extender and laptop (with the extender right next to the laptop, is says: 96% for signal and 52% for the average.

What does that mean???

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#19377 - 11/27/11 01:56 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The Apple techs statement that you cannot use an Airport Express to extend a non-Airport network is news to me. I have been unable to verify that independently but that does not mean it isn't true. However I will take a shot at explaining what you are seeing in AirRadar

  1. Signal is the instaneous signal strength seen on the last scan
  2. Signal Avg is the average signal strength over all the last n seconds. The scan interval and retention in seconds is configurable in AirRadar > Preferences > General
  3. Signal Max is the peak signal strength seen in all the scans in the last n seconds
  4. In both rooms you should be seeing readings for your base station and your repeater but I would expect them to have the same SSID and to be operating on the same channel. (Bear in mind I am using a Time Capsule and Airport Express so your results may be different

If you are seeing a significant variance between Signal and Signal Avg and have a low noise number I would suspect something on someone moving around in the space and interrupting the signal line of site between your computer and the network device you are connected to. An intervening human or animal body will attenuate a signal just as a wall will or heavy furniture will. Perhaps not as effectively as a sheet of lead or grounded melt wire screen but it will cause attenuation.
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#19378 - 11/27/11 07:36 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks Joe, no is one moving around here. That average on the extender is always much less that the normal signal number.

But what is the accurate number, the average then?

I'm still battling Netgear, just for fun, this is the last email in an email exchange of 30 or so emails.


It's pretty hairy:




Dear Kevs,

My name is Niño and I am following up your support case.

I have review your case responses with the previous engineers and I sincerely apologize for an incomplete steps you have requested them to provide. As of now the connection through the extender timed out with your laptop and the your iMAC in your office seems to be disconnected too. Honestly, I will say our possible option because I feel the inconvenience this had caused you, so here are the possibilities, first, I can verify with the things and steps given by the previous engineers who handle this case that evidently the extender is problematic unit partly a software failure or hardware itself is bad. The only way we can fix the software problem on the extender is by flashing a new firmware, however, it will be a problem because MAC OS have different file system that cannot recognize the firmware file to be downloaded so as a heads up we will have trouble again doing the firmware flash. As a work around, using Mozilla Firefox browser is applicable than using the Safari browser. If you want to try this I have included the step-by-step instructions below. Last option is to have the unit be replace from the store because as I suspect it is a hardware problem since the extender should have not behave like this and really hard to be setup. I regret to say but it contradicts what we marketed that this unit is universal and easy to setup as you are very well aware of. Perhaps having it replace will resolve the problem. Again, I sincerely apologize for all the trouble this had caused you. If you have additional questions please feel free to let me know.

To update the extender firmware:

Let us use your laptop.

1. I presume it is currently connected to KEVS network of your main WGR614v9 router.
2. Please open your browser I prefer you have Mozilla Firefox. If you can consider downloading it and I would greatly appreciate, otherwise, let us return the product to the store and have it replaced.
3. If you have Mozilla Firefox please open it and then go to the link below:

http://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/WN3000RP-V1.0.0.12_1.0.12.chk

4. Please save the file to the most convenient location on your laptop, I prefer just on the desktop location to easily find it later.
5. Once you are done downloading the file close the browser and let us turn off your Airport temporarily.

a. Click on the AirPort icon on at the top right side of your screen. It is the signal icon for your Wi-Fi. Then select Turn AirPort off.

6. Please reset the Extender once more.

a. Press the reset button on the back of your extender for 30 seconds.
b. Power off the extender for 10 seconds and turn it back on and wait till it is ready.

7. Using your laptop please connect an Ethernet cable to the back of the NETGEAR Extender.
8. Once connected please open Mozilla Firefox.
9. On the address bar please type http://www.mywifiextnet/cgi-bin/index.html and press return or enter key.
10. Please continue with the Extender Wizard and choose Firmware Upgrade under the Maintenance tab.
11. Please click on browse and locate the file you have save from step 3-4.
12. Please wait until the process finish updating the extender and please do not interrupt this process by any means.
13. Once the update is done. Press the reset button on the back of your extender for 30 seconds.
14. Power off the extender for 10 seconds and turn it back on.
15. Let us turn on the AirPort baco on.

a. please click the AirPort icon on the top right side of the screen, the W-Fi signal icon and then please select Turn AirPort on.

16. Once the AirPort is on. You should see again the default extender name SSID; NETGEAR_EXT. Please click on it and then connect or join the network. Since it is unsecured it should not ask for any password yet. There should a check mark beside the name SSID to indicate that the laptop is connected to the extender network.
17. Open again Mozilla Firefox and go to www.mywifiext.com or www.mywifiext.net
18. Please continue with the Extender Wizard and choose your router network name SSID; “KEVS” and click on continue.
19. On Step 3of the wizard process, please make sure your passphrase is type in correctly and continue and box is check for “Use the same security and passphrase as those for existing network.

Note if your KEVS network have WEP security please use the WEP key and type it on to the key1 box of the extender wizard page and nothing on the passphrase field. If it uses WPA type it to the passphrase field and continue.

20. Once the extender network is created, which will have the name SSID of KEVS_EXT please close all the windows.
21. Go to the AirPort icon again from the top right side and select KEVS_EXT and press connect it may not ask for a password anymore if it retains the previous connection to be save if it does use the same password you have with your KEN network.

If you have clarifications, it would be great if you can specify the step that you have trouble in case it did not work to determine our next action.

Once again I appreciate the opportunity to assist you. Please accept my apologies for all the inconvenience.

Sincerely,

Niño
Technical Support
NETGEAR, Inc.
http://support.netgear.com

***Please be aware that your case will auto-close after 7 days of inactivity***


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#19379 - 11/28/11 06:33 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Both numbers are "accurate", but one is instantaneous and the other is an average over time. When you launch AirRadar the initial set of readings you see should show Signal, Signal Avg, and Signal Max should be the same because there is only one reading to average. After that it could go either way. On my network all three readings are often the same or are within a point or two either way of one another. For example, at the moment from my iMac in the same room as the Time Capsule that is generating the network I am seeing
Code:
SSID                 Signal         Signal Avg         Signal Max       Noise         Channel

Bailey                54%               60%                   76%              0                   6
Bailey (5GHz)    63%               64%                   65%              0                   149
Bailey (5GHz)    15%               16%                   18%              0                   149
Guest Network  59%               59%                   74%              0                   6


The second "Bailey (5GHz)" is the signal from the Airport Express repeater at the other end of the house.

Niño is obviously encouraging you to return your repeater to the store and although the firmware update seems reasonably doable — I would take his suggestion and get a new repeater.
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#19383 - 11/28/11 10:10 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks Joe,
well, isn't it weird though that the average on the netgear extender is always about 50% or the signal number -- always.

I don't mind returning, but it seems netgear -- they don't know what they are doing, and that's an easy out for him, but who knows.

Also, curious, if I got the Apple router, maybe it's so superior, it does not need an extender?

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#19385 - 11/28/11 11:47 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
The 802.11 a/b/g/n protocols used for WiFi are IEEE standards and ratified by international agreements. So theoretically there should be little difference between various brands. However, there are differences in how the standards are implemented by the different manufacturers. For example Netgear and Linksys devices typically have two obvious external antennae while Apple Airport devices have smooth exteriors with no visible antennae. From what you have learned from the Apple tech there is apparently some difference in the protocols used for extending a network and this may be outside the purview of the standard. Depending on the age of your Netgear router (when it was designed and built not necessarily when you bought it) there may be differences in the protocols used. A preliminary standard for 802.11n was issued in 2007 and many manufacturers built devices to their interpretation of what the final standard would be. The final 802.11n standard was not adopted until 2009 and supposedly devices designed and built since then conform to this final standard. While devices built under the the proposed standard are generally compatible, the devil is in the details and more than a few compatibility issues arose during the interim period.

This is a long winded way of saying no one, least of all me, could guarantee your network would perform better using all Apple components. I have always used Apple in my networks because:
  1. I was and I am an Apple stockholder and Apple stock has been very good to me financially so I support their products
  2. I got started using Airport and have come to know it well
  3. I have always had good results with Airport networks
  4. On the theory that if it aint broke, don't fix it I have never had reason to try another vendor's product


Edited by joemikeb (11/28/11 11:52 AM)
Edit Reason: format typo
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#19386 - 11/28/11 12:02 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks Joe,
well the apple router is about $190, lot more than Netgear, but if I change, I'll be happy to go to Apple for the customer service alone.

btw, curious, the netgear, they issue a new wifi name, instead of using the Kevs network, I use Kevs-netgear.

What's going on? Is this extending from kevs, or does the little extender with the two antennas have it's own independent network?

kind of confusing really.

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#19387 - 11/28/11 12:03 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
pss,

and again the average, you have no idea why netgear extenders always, without exception, have average reading of 50% of signal. thanks JOe!

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#19390 - 11/28/11 12:44 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: kevs
pss,

and again the average, you have no idea why netgear extenders always, without exception, have average reading of 50% of signal. thanks JOe!

What does your graph tell you? If your average signal strength is 50% it should be bouncing up and down accordingly, reflecting some sort of local activity/interference/something.

(And you can't be specific about NETGEAR hardware without knowing what info other hardware generates under the same circumstances.)


Edited by artie505 (11/29/11 01:17 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification
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#19393 - 11/29/11 08:55 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: artie505]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
update Joe, if still there:

Its now working again-- so I'll hold my breath.

Question:
the original router has 74% connection rate.

The laptop in other room without extender is 30%.

With extender it goes to 50%. (that the average speed. I'll go with that -- lowest speed listed)

Is that normal?

(still 50 from 30 is worth $70...)

but,I was thinking the extender would bump the laptop to the speed of the original. I guess not?


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#19399 - 11/29/11 03:05 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
If you haven't done so already, you might want to check out NetSpot with your WiFi setup to see if it sheds more light on your observations.
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#19400 - 11/29/11 03:51 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I think you may be misinterpreting the Signal readings.
Originally Posted By: AirRadar Support Wiki
Signal Strength (sometimes known as RSSI), displayed in AirRadar as a percentage, is how strong the connection to the wireless network is. The farther away from the base station, router, or relay point, the lower the strength will be. Other physical factors (such as walls, people, furniture, etc.) between this computer and the network also affect signal strength.

So there is no direct relationship between the Signal strength percentage as reported by AirRadar and other Wifi apps and network data rate or speed. The most direct effect on network speed is the version of the 802.11 protocol being used. If your connection is using..
  • 802.11b the network data transfer rate is limited to 11 Mbps (note that is bits not Bytes).
  • 802.11g networks can get up to 55 Mbps
  • theoretically 802.11n can get up to 150 Mbps (but I would not hold my breath expecting that high a data rate).
There is an indirect effect of signal strength on network data rate however. A weak signal is more prone to transmission errors resulting in more frequent retransmission of network data packets to achieve data reliability.

If your Netgear router and repeater support it, try configuring them to create a 802.11n network. Any Mac made in the last four years is capable of 802.11n and theoretically 802.11n is capable of up to three times the data rate of 802.11g and twice the range. 802.11b/g operate only on the 2.4 GHz band but 802.11n can operate on either the 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz bands. Again if your Netgear equipment will support the 5 GHz band give that a try. In some cases the 5 GHz signal will punch through where the 2.4 GHz will not go or vice-versa.
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#19402 - 11/29/11 06:38 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
thanks Joe/ A.
Wow, that just flew over my head. I am not conversant in any of it.

I took 30 emails to get it to work. I'm not touching it for a bit!

But if my main imac is at 75%, and the laptop in other room (with extender right next to it) is at 50%, that is not so bad?

(is would be 30% without an extender at all)

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#19432 - 12/01/11 02:09 PM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
PS, today, on laptop in living room, computer with the new Netgear extender. I click on Google and it took minutes to load up -- so long.

But then a bit later, everything was surfing fine and fast.

is there something about that first surf? getting warmed up or something?

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#19450 - 12/02/11 07:52 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
Ira L Offline


Registered: 08/13/09
Loc: California
I, along with others, have commented in other posts that Internet speed varies for no apparent reason. In my case one computer is hard-wired--directly connected by Ethernet cable--to the router, and the page loading times will vary. I attribute this to "things" going on with my ISP or to hiccups in the entire World Wide Web. grin
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#19451 - 12/02/11 08:43 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
What you are describing is most likely the result of external network load not anything you or the equipment in your house would or could have any effect on. In fact I encountered some slow response times on Google and another site yesterday.
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#19454 - 12/02/11 11:20 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: joemikeb]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Thanks guys, appreciate it. I seem to think this huge delay happens more on the laptop in the living room, but I'll keep an eye on it.. who knows!

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#19462 - 12/03/11 05:30 AM Re: Internet is slow in the next room [Re: kevs]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
If you are using Time Machine to backup your laptop check on the Time Machine icon on the menu bar when the slowdowns occur. It may be the slowdown is caused by the Time Machine backup process.
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