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#19031 - 11/09/11 04:44 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
That "even reinstalling Lion" part is kinda misleading, though, without mentioning that high-speed Internet is required for that particular function.

According to Pogue, it isn't ... unless your hard drive is totally kaput and requires replacement. (And that's where TM comes in.)

That doesn't sound correct.

There's no way a 650Mb Recovery partition could include a 4Gb Lion install package, so if you've got to reinstall Lion, even to a functional HD, I don't see how you can do it sans d/l.

Please post an on-the-mark quote.

Apple - OS X Lion Recovery - Introducing Lion Recovery also mentions reinstall without mentioning Internet, but...

And, on the other hand, maybe Pogue knows something that all of us have missed and, as I suggested to Alex, this entire thread has, indeed, been an exercise in futility.

Edit: Never mind! smile


Edited by artie505 (11/09/11 04:48 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19032 - 11/09/11 04:52 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Why is a second download needed again?
Isn't there an "InstallESD.dmg" file tucked away somewhere?

If you purchase Lion from the App Store, you get a 3.76GB application called "Install Mac OS X Lion.app". If you show package contents of that app, you discover that the bulk of it (at ./Contents/SharedSupport/InstallESD.dmg) is a 3.74GB disk image of a full Lion installer. The remaining 20MB is just a GUI wrapper around that install image.

If you install Lion from that application, one of its post-install scripts deletes the application if it's still at its default download location (in /Applications). If it gets deleted, no problem. You bought it from the App Store, and can therefore re-download it for free to any computer associated with the Apple ID you used to purchase it.

You can also install Lion by mounting InstallESD.dmg (or, as I mentioned, a clone of it). When mounted, InstallESD.dmg looks and behaves just like one of the install discs we've become accustomed to over the years.

When you install Lion, by whatever means, it tries to create a Recovery HD partition. However, the Recovery HD partition is only 650MB, and is not large enough to contain a full copy of Lion. It's only a very compressed copy of the installer, minus the actual Lion payload. (It does, apparently, contain Safari and Disk Utility. It may contain enough to re-install from Time Machine.)

If your machine shipped with Lion, you have a Recovery HD partition pre-installed. (You also, of course, have Lion itself pre-installed.) In addition, there is in firmware enough smarts to configure an internet connect, and download a copy of Recovery HD. This "internet recovery" lets you proceed as if you had a Recovery HD partition, even it has been lost for whatever reason. Recovery HD, once downloaded by firmware (or found on disk), turns around and downloads Lion. Notice that the firmware is not large enough to contain even a full copy of Recovery HD. (If it were, you wouldn't need Recovery HD.)

If your machine shipped with Lion, then you did not need to buy Lion from the App Store. If you didn't, you cannot download "Install Mac OS X Lion.app" for free, and don't have access to a copy of "InstallESD.dmg". (Since I did purchase Lion in the App Store, I cannot tell if it could also be purchased from a machine that shipped with Lion. If it can, $29 for Lion is a lot cheaper than the USB installer.)

No matter how you install Lion, it always goes out to the internet to (a) update Lion to the latest version, and (b) verify that you're entitled to install it. (That is, you're either installing onto a machine that shipped with Lion, or your Apple ID purchased a copy.)

Most Apple docs say simply that installing Lion requires a Wi-Fi connection, which has got to be inaccurate. (A Wi-Fi connection to a router that is not connected to the internet isn't going to work; an Ethernet connection to a DSL modem should work just fine.) I did see one doc that explicitly says that installing Lion requires a broadband connection to the internet. That requirement I believe, but I can't seem to find that document now. I think the "Wi-Fi required" language is a carelessly worded attempt to say "a cellphone data plan won't work".

When Apple says you need a network connection, I don't know if they mean it's not practical to install without one (as in, you won't get the latest version), or that they will simply refuse to install if you don't have one.



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#19033 - 11/09/11 05:13 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I'm not sure who among this thread's contributors has or doesn't have Lion, so just let me point out (grâce à Pogue, p 848) to artie and others who don't have Lion:

'When you install Lion, it automatically creates an invisible hidden "hard drive" (a partition of your main drive that has its own icon) called Recover HD. It's a 650-megabyte "drive" that's generally invisible to you. It's even invisible to Disk Utility, so even if you erase your hard drive, the Recovery HD is still there to help you.

That's not correct. I've verified by testing that if you erase your disk, the Recovery HD partition goes away with it.

To be precise, whenever Lion is installed on a volume, the installer automatically carves a 650MB partition out of the end of the partition you're installing onto, and puts the Recovery HD partition there. If you install Lion onto multiple partitions on the same drive, you get multiple copies of Recovery HD, one at the end of each partition on which Lion is installed.

If you then remove Lion from such a partition using a Lion-savvy utility to do so, the 650MB partition gets re-absorbed into the normal partition it follows. The obvious example is using Lion's version of Disk Utility to erase the volume, but using the Lion Installer to restore Snow Leopard from backup also re-absorbs the partition. (If you subsequently use the Lion installer to restore Lion from a TM backup, the partition is re-created.)

The only way Pogue could have erased a volume and still had Recovery HD left behind is if he used a non-Lion-savvy utility to do it. (For example, if he used Snow Leopard's version of Disk Utility to erase the volume.)

And of course you can always get back all your disk space by re-partitioning.

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#19037 - 11/09/11 09:54 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: ganbustein]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> No matter how you install Lion, it always goes out to the internet to (a) update Lion to the latest version, [....]

Do you know if that includes thumb drive installations, and does it mean that you can't revert to an earlier version if you so desire?

> I did see one doc that explicitly says that installing Lion requires a broadband connection to the internet. That requirement I believe, but I can't seem to find that document now.

Originally Posted By: OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery
Requirements for reinstalling OS X Lion

Reinstalling OS X Lion via Lion Recovery requires broadband access to the Internet via Wi-Fi or an Ethernet connection. OS X Lion is downloaded over the Internet from Apple when Lion Recovery is used for reinstallation.

> When Apple says you need a network connection, [....]

What, precisely, does "network connection" mean in this context?


Edited by artie505 (11/10/11 12:25 AM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19084 - 11/11/11 12:40 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: grelber
I haven't added anything to the discussion because most of it has been well beyond my ken. The takeaway lesson I got is that a bootable backup disk for OS X Lion isn't possible


Tell that to the ~8 service drives around this building that I keep synced with the mother drive in my laptop bag. Two of the partitions are 10.7.2 installed service partition and a 10.7.0 bootable retail installer.

Anyone that tells you it's not possible is inadequately educated wink
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#19091 - 11/11/11 01:40 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Tell that to the ~8 service drives around this building that I keep synced with the mother drive in my laptop bag. Two of the partitions are 10.7.2 installed service partition and a 10.7.0 bootable retail installer.
Anyone that tells you it's not possible is inadequately educated wink

Indeed, that I am ... which is why I phrased it the way I did. But given the parameters under which I function, for me it's not possible.

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#19097 - 11/11/11 05:49 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: grelber
I haven't added anything to the discussion because most of it has been well beyond my ken. The takeaway lesson I got is that a bootable backup disk for OS X Lion isn't possible

Tell that to the ~8 service drives around this building that I keep synced with the mother drive in my laptop bag. Two of the partitions are 10.7.2 installed service partition and a 10.7.0 bootable retail installer.

Anyone that tells you it's not possible is inadequately educated wink

Your speaking out of context, V1... It is impossible in grelber's instance, because he did not purchase Lion from the App Store, rather he got it installed on his new iMac, and, further, he's stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up Internet connection.

If you can suggest how to get around those limitations and create a bootable backup, i.e. installer, disc you'll have a double-fistful of admirers.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19152 - 11/13/11 11:52 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
ben1975 Offline


Registered: 11/13/11
I used this tutorial but i can't seem to download it again? I already installed Lion, and the option is no longer available in the Mac App Store to download Lion again?

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#19161 - 11/14/11 06:09 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
[You're] speaking out of context, V1 ... It is impossible in grelber's instance, because he did not purchase Lion from the App Store, rather he got it installed on his new iMac, and, further, he's stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up Internet connection.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but here's the download math at 5KB/sec:
1MB = 200 sec = 3.33 min; 1GB = 200,000 sec = 55 hr 33 min.

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#19186 - 11/15/11 12:14 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artie505
If you can suggest how to get around those limitations and create a bootable backup, i.e. installer, disc you'll have a double-fistful of admirers.


Ask and Ye Shall Receive!

You have to get the recovery partition to mount. 10.7 hides it. Red commands in terminal:

diskutil list

/dev/disk0
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *250.1 GB disk0
1: EFI 209.7 MB disk0s1
2: Apple_HFS Spare Mac HD 249.7 GB disk0s2
/dev/disk1
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *750.2 GB disk1
1: EFI 209.7 MB disk1s1
2: Apple_HFS Main Mac HD 749.3 GB disk1s2
3: Apple_Boot Recovery HD 650.0 MB disk1s3


This computer has two hard drives, making it a good example. The recovery partition is on disk1, partition 3.

sudo mkdir /Volumes/Recovery

sudo mount_hfs /dev/disk1s3 /Volumes/Recovery

and the recovery partition will magically appear on your desktop. (disk utility will still refuse to acknowledge it but that's ok)

Open the Recovery HD on the desktop and see BaseSystem.dmg. Drop that to the lower left in disk utility. Burn it to a DVD or restore it to a hard drive partition at your leisure.

Restores nicely to a flash drive, but it's a smidge too big to fit on an 8gb, there's one or two irrelevent files I deleted here to squeeze it on. 16's work fine.
_________________________
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department

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#19193 - 11/15/11 04:20 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
MicroMatTech3 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
On my iMac running Mac OS X 10.7.2, if I launch Disk Utility, it allows me to mount the Recovery HD on the internal drive using the Mount button.
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Makers of TechTool

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#19194 - 11/15/11 04:31 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MicroMatTech3]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: MicroMatTech3
On my iMac running Mac OS X 10.7.2, if I launch Disk Utility, it allows me to mount the Recovery HD on the internal drive using the Mount button.

I just tried that, but the Mount button is greyed out (ie, non-selectable). What's the trick?
Or are you booting first via command-R? If so, then we're back to square one, in that unless it's already been installed, Lion isn't there.

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#19195 - 11/15/11 04:58 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Where is the RESET button for this thread?

I'd like to help, but i don't have Lion.

[can't anyone solve this?]

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#19197 - 11/16/11 12:16 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
On my MBP your commands worked, except that the recovery partition is named disk0s3. Did not attempt burning yet. Will it boot the computer when burned on DVD?
Question: BaseSystem.dmg is only 455MB. Why do we need a 16GB drive for it?


Edited by macnerd10 (11/16/11 12:22 AM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#19198 - 11/16/11 03:26 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
MicroMatTech3 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
It is possible that my Mount button works because I have the debug menu enabled in Disk Utility. There are a few different commands for enabling it, depending on the version. Try the one in this article:

http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourmac/qt/Enable-Disk-Utilitys-Debug-Menu.htm
_________________________
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool

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#19200 - 11/16/11 06:54 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MicroMatTech3]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Thanks. However ...

I just read Pogue's lucid discussion of creating disk images from the hard drive via Disk Utility.
I'm going to need a lot more intelligence (to comprehend it) and confidence (to put it into practice) before even thinking about doing anything like has been suggested. So, guess what isn't likely to happen .... confused tongue

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#19212 - 11/16/11 03:22 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
Ask and Ye Shall Receive. Yes, but not the relevant thing. Just the Recovery Partition on one's desktop.

The relevant thing in this thread applies to Grieber, who bought a Mac with Lion preinstalled, but has only a dialup internet connection, which we are to assume in this context is tantamount to no internet connection.

We are then to assume as a first premise that Grieber has no internet connection. The second premise is that Grieber does not wish to pay any money for a Lion installer (he in effect paid for an invisible one in buying his Lion preinstalled computer) and cannot get one free from Apple or some other helpful source (say, a good willed friend who downloads it for him and burns it to a disk).

The relevant question then is: Can Grieber get a Lion installer given those two premises? This is to ask: Can he somehow create a Lion installer from his own preinstalled Lion Mac?

The answer "seems" to be "No"

Its not hard to get the Recovery Partition on one's desktop. But that partition at 650 MBs does not contain a Lion installer. And with no internet connection, it cannot be made to produce one.

Now if somebody knows how to create a Lion installer from a Mac with Lion preinstalled (and that only) -- that will be a nice discovery. But that's what has to be discovered to be relevant here.


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#19219 - 11/16/11 08:45 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: RHV]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: RHV
Ask and Ye Shall Receive. Yes, but not the relevant thing. Just the Recovery Partition on one's desktop.

The relevant thing in this thread applies to Grieber, who bought a Mac with Lion preinstalled, but has only a dialup internet connection, which we are to assume in this context is tantamount to no internet connection.

We are then to assume as a first premise that Grieber has no internet connection. The second premise is that Grieber does not wish to pay any money for a Lion installer (he in effect paid for an invisible one in buying his Lion preinstalled computer) and cannot get one free from Apple or some other helpful source (say, a good willed friend who downloads it for him and burns it to a disk).

The relevant question then is: Can Grieber get a Lion installer given those two premises? This is to ask: Can he somehow create a Lion installer from his own preinstalled Lion Mac?

The answer "seems" to be "No"

And the "why" is because he doesn't want to learn how to clone???


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#19220 - 11/16/11 10:38 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Virtual1]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
OK, I made a test: mounted the recovery HD, put the basesystem.dmg into the Disk Utility and burned it. After mounting the burned disk, I unplugged the Ethernet cable and double-clicked on the Lion installer. Only to get the message: installation cannot continue because you are not connected to the Internet.
Case closed. With dial-up, no way to reinstall Lion with this trick even if the disk would boot the computer (did not check). The installer indeed is not full.
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#19226 - 11/17/11 08:11 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
OK, I made a test: mounted the recovery HD, put the basesystem.dmg into the Disk Utility and burned it. After mounting the burned disk, I unplugged the Ethernet cable and double-clicked on the Lion installer. Only to get the message: installation cannot continue because you are not connected to the Internet.
Case closed. With dial-up, no way to reinstall Lion with this trick even if the disk would boot the computer (did not check). The installer indeed is not full.

Might not the Internet connection be required mainly for Apple to verify that this Mac is authorized to have Lion installed?

And isn't the premise of this thread that the "install" would be deriving the bulk of its files from a backup volume? (e.g., Time Machine).

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#19230 - 11/17/11 10:39 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
"And isn't the premise of this thread that the "install" would be deriving the bulk of its files from a backup volume? (e.g., Time Machine)."

I guess, not. Lots of people do not use Time Machine. The premises were: 1. problems with dial-up customers (file too big to download); 2 (related). The real installer missing on Macs with pre-installed Lion, making it impossible to create a bootable Lion disk without going back to downloads.
For the first one, I will see but I doubt it (the installer size is much less than the original one)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#19233 - 11/17/11 01:03 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
I see plenty of discussion here about using SuperDuper and Time Machine. It only makes sense that one would want to use a backup to restore the most-recent, most-updated OS... not "install" version 7.0 (or whatever came with the Mac at purchase) and need to run a bunch of updates.


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#19236 - 11/17/11 01:19 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
That is true, but a lot of deviations from the OP...
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#19238 - 11/17/11 02:09 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
That is true, but a lot of deviations from the OP...

Well, the "i don't want to learn how to clone" stipulation didn't appear until post #4. wink

[which is almost comical, considering how easy it is.]


Edited by Hal Itosis (11/17/11 02:11 PM)

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#19240 - 11/17/11 02:36 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
From the descriptions of cloning given early on in this thread, the necessity of acquiring additional software (if not skills) and the fact that Pogue mentions it nowhere in his manual (as far as I can tell so far, because it's not indexed), I suspect that it isn't either easy or comical.
In any case, as mentioned repeatedly, I'm more than happy at the moment with the restore capability I've got via Time Machine.

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