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#18951 - 11/06/11 12:54 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Apropos the (apparent non-)necessity of a bootable backup disk, see External hard drives for backups in the Peripherals forum, especially the latter posts.

EDIT: See post #18966 in Peripherals » External hard drives for backups for my last word here.


Edited by grelber (11/07/11 09:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Last word

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#18952 - 11/06/11 01:05 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
We uncomplainingly paid those prices for new "technology," not to acquire a hard copy of the OS we'd already paid for when we bought our Macs.

Doing the math: 29 + 69 = 100 roughly.
Therefore, we now pay 30 dollars (or 23%) less, even if we opt for the [reusable] thumb drive.

Seems like we probably ought to press on, uncomplainingly. wink


[i do see your point about 'new tech' wrt OS upgrades of an old machine, versus the need to emergency boot a new machine. iduno, when i get Lion i'll look into it a little deeper i suppose.]


Edited by Hal Itosis (11/06/11 01:14 PM)

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#18954 - 11/06/11 01:37 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Quote:
I hope it does not automatically launch and then disappear.

Without some user intervention, that is exactly what it does.
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#18956 - 11/06/11 07:07 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: joemikeb]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
And that intervention being – abort install?
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18970 - 11/07/11 12:00 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
ryck Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Okanagan Valley
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
[Not to mention: a thumb drive can be reused years later, when Lion becomes irrelevant. What can i use my $500 worth of Puma, Jaguar, Panther & Tiger dvds for now? ]

It could be a worse quandary. I've been digging around some of those "I wonder what's in there?" boxes from one move or another and discovered several of the instructional cassettes that originally came with Macs and Mac software.

For those who may not recall the early machines, you got a 400K floppy with the video of the instructions and a cassette with the audio. You had to press "start" on the cassette at the same time as clicking "start" on the Mac, and hope the two stayed in sync. (Actually, all things considered, they worked quite well.)

At least with obsolete DVDs, you could have a few coasters, whereas it'd be a bit difficult to balance glasses on old cassettes.
_________________________
ryck

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2017), 3.4 GHz Intel Core i5, 8GB RAM, 2400 MHz DDR4
OS High Sierra 10.13.6
Canon MX710 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner
Time Machine on 320GB OWC Mercury OTG Pro
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#18979 - 11/07/11 10:44 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
Corporations are unfair, we all know that, and Apple is no exception. In this situation, we have to cope with Apple's aggressive marketing strategy because there seems to be no other way. Hopefully, Apple will realize that it made a mistake and clean up their act for people who bought Lion-running Macs. Or offer a big discount for the USB drive to those who are on dial–up. Frankly, I personally would bitch only if the dial-up download is interrupted; if not, let it go overnight and then save the installer that downloads from the recovery partition. I hope it does not automatically launch and then disappear. In the latter instance, I would fully side with you!

1. I understand Apple's "forward-thinking" (and with no need for discourses on same), but in this particular instance, backwards compatibility would neither require extensive code nor bring into play the potential problems that joemikeb has discussed on several occasions; it would require no more than either including a disc with each new Mac (...my preferred solution) or accommodating those who ask for them, so I don't understand their recalcitrance, and, further, I consider it embarrassing, indeed ludicrous, for them to have to have included

Originally Posted By: OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery
The OS X Lion download is about 4 GB large; the time required to download will vary, depending on the speed of your Internet connection. If your usual or current Internet connection has requirements or settings not supported by Lion Restore, either change the settings to a supported configuration for the duration of your OS X Lion reinstall, or seek out acceptable networks from which you are permitted to access the Internet (such as friends, family, Internet "cafe" establishments, or possibly your place of employment with appropriate permission. [Emphasis added)

in a kBase doc. All else aside, it overlooks the reality that there are still places in the world where broadband is just plain 100% unavailable.(Wasn't anybody paying attention when that got posted?)

Edit: Even if you go to the trouble of unplugging your iMac or Mac Pro and carrying it and its appurtenances to an Internet cafe can you actually cable it up?

2. Looks like you missed grelber's relevant post.

At a sustained d/l rate of 5kbps, it would take him 9 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds to complete a 4Gb d/l. (I think I saw 4.07Gb for Lion somewhere.)


Edited by artie505 (11/08/11 01:24 AM)
Edit Reason: Add hours
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18980 - 11/07/11 11:02 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Doing the math: 29 + 69 = 100 roughly.
Therefore, we now pay 30 dollars (or 23%) less, even if we opt for the [reusable] thumb drive.

Or, in "new" math, 30 + 39 = 69, so we now pay $39...130% more to get Lion on a thumb drive than we paid to get Snow Leopard on a disc.


Edited by artie505 (11/07/11 11:03 PM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18989 - 11/08/11 08:01 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I did not realize indeed that his dial-up is THAT slow. I have read somewhere that Americans are more willing now to cope with bad service and suffer through than complain and try to win or find a better place to get what they want. A pragmatic attitude of sorts. So, if I personally were in Grelber's situation, I would just bite the bullet and shell out 69 bucks (more in my case with sales tax) rather than complain on a forum that has no power to do anything about it. Or continue talks with Apple (he nearly succeeded but then gave up), or ask around to find somebody who upgraded. The question is not about impossibility, it is about unfairness. But in that domain there is nothing new, IMHO.


Edited by macnerd10 (11/08/11 08:01 AM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18993 - 11/08/11 10:59 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
See post #18951 above.

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#19009 - 11/09/11 02:30 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> [...] rather than complain on a forum that has no power to do anything about it.

Just to set the record straight, grelber didn't complain; he merely asked how to create a bootable Lion backup disc, and the thread forked off from there.

> The question is not about impossibility, it is about unfairness.

I think it's more about stupidity than it is about unfairness, Alex.

How can Apple say

For users who do not have Broadband Internet access at home, school or work, the OS X Lion USB Thumb Drive is an alternate way to update to OS X Lion.

without also acknowledging that the same set of circumstances affects some purchasers of Macs with pre-installed Lion and results in, under the circumstances, useless "Recovery" functionality?

At any rate, I think that, $ for $, grelber's Time Machine route is a better one than blowing $69 on a thumb drive. (My personal reservation to that is that I like to do a clean install every once in a while when things feel like they're getting sluggish, and Time Machine doesn't allow that [unless maybe the first thing you do when you get your Mac is run TM and use that pristine backup as your "restore disc"].)


Edited by artie505 (11/09/11 04:12 AM)
Edit Reason: English
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19010 - 11/09/11 02:54 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
If money were an issue…

One can buy an 8GB thumb drive for about $10.00 and then using Lion Disk Maker, make their own Lion backup key.
_________________________
Harv
27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19011 - 11/09/11 03:41 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Pendragon]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Pendragon
If money were an issue…

One can buy an 8GB thumb drive for about $10.00 and then using Lion Disk Maker, make their own Lion backup key.

We've been there, Harv, but the issue isn't money; it's the fact that grelber is stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up modem and is unable to d/l the installer (unless, that is, he's willing to tie up his phone line for 9 1/4 days).
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19012 - 11/09/11 08:17 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
We've been there, Harv, but the issue isn't money; it's the fact that grelber is stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up modem and is unable to d/l the installer (unless, that is, he's willing to tie up his phone line for 9 1/4 days).

Why is a second download needed again?
Isn't there an "InstallESD.dmg" file tucked away somewhere?

As per...
Originally Posted By: ganbustein's post on page 2
What I did was use SuperDuper to clone the InstallESD.dmg image onto my TM backup. (When SuperDuper makes a clone, it will carefully step around any TM backup on the destination volume, leaving it unscathed. The result is a single volume that is both a TM backup and a Lion Install disk.)



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#19015 - 11/09/11 11:38 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
This file apparently does not exist on Lion-preloaded Macs. Tomorrow, I will see a new MBP with Lion preloaded and try to find it. Will report back.

Could not find the file as suspected; checked receipts as well.


Edited by macnerd10 (11/10/11 08:55 AM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#19016 - 11/09/11 12:02 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
This file apparently does not exist on Lion-preloaded Macs. Tomorrow, I will see a new MBP with Lion preloaded and try to find it. Will report back.

I, for one, will be shocked if you find it; there's no reason for it to exist on a Mac with Recovery functionality. (And if you do find it, this entire thread will have been an exercise in futility.)

The only way of which I'm aware to get your hands on that file is to d/l Lion from the App Store and have the knowledge and presence of mind to save it.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19017 - 11/09/11 12:16 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Quote:
I hope it does not automatically launch and then disappear.

Without some user intervention, that is exactly what it does.

But aren't you speaking from your experience d/l'ing Lion from the App Store rather than about Internet Recovery?

I'd love to experiment myself, but I haven't got Lion, so I can only suggest that somebody who has d/l'ed it do an Internet Recovery and tell us precisely how it works...

For instance, does it d/l an installer package, and, if so, how does the installer run in "Safari only" mode, or, on the other hand, does it install as it d/l's?

And if it does d/l an installer package is there any way to save it in "Safari only" mode?

And have I even asked the right questions?
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19018 - 11/09/11 01:36 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
As noted elsewhere, Recovery HD is an integral part of Lion. But even Pogue (p 850) recommends restoring from TM backup: "If your Mac is really hosed, this is the option you want. It restores your entire software world — programs, data, settings, Mac OS X itself ...."

That's the primary reason I chose the route I did. Who wants/needs an outdated OS X system which has none of the carefully 'engineered' personality that you put into it? With TM backup restoration, you get exactly what you want.

And do the math: $70 OS X thumb drive with 10.7.x vs $100 backup drive. The latter provides peace of mind; the former gets dated really fast.

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#19019 - 11/09/11 02:54 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
As noted elsewhere, Recovery HD is an integral part of Lion. But even Pogue (p 850) recommends restoring from TM backup: "If your Mac is really hosed, this is the option you want. It restores your entire software world — programs, data, settings, Mac OS X itself ...."

That's the primary reason I chose the route I did. Who wants/needs an outdated OS X system which has none of the carefully 'engineered' personality that you put into it? With TM backup restoration, you get exactly what you want.

And do the math: $70 OS X thumb drive with 10.7.x vs $100 backup drive. The latter provides peace of mind; the former gets dated really fast.

Sure... Except for the fact that you can't use Time Machine to reinstall a pristine Lion (other than as described by ganbustein, but that's useless in your instance) as I like to do on occasion when things begin to feel sluggish. And don't forget that along with your "carefully 'engineered' personality," TM also reinstalls the accumulated detritus of your usage.

And further, depending on how and why your installation got hosed, TM may do no better than reinstall a disaster that's about to happen or, if you go back a bit farther, the underpinnings of that disaster, so you may, in fact, have to go so far back to get a good TM restoration that much of your "carefully 'engineered' personality" is lost.

Actually, a clean install combined with judicious use of Migration Assistant and/or FireWire target disk mode (to access cloned data) may be an equally complete and better solution than a TM restoration.

Sure... I agree that TM is a great gift, but I don't accept it as the panacea you seem to think it is.

And as I've already said (Post #19009), "$ for $, grelber's Time Machine route is a better one than blowing $69 on a thumb drive."


Edited by artie505 (11/09/11 03:00 PM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19022 - 11/09/11 03:39 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I agree with your provisos as legitimate concerns.

However, I suspect I can get close to "pristine" (ie, not likely corrupted, nascently or otherwise, re 10.7.2 + updated third-party applications) by selecting my first backup as the restore version. [See also below under EDIT.]
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating (restoring), if such is ever necessary.

EDIT:
I'm not sure who among this thread's contributors has or doesn't have Lion, so just let me point out (grâce à Pogue, p 848) to artie and others who don't have Lion:

'When you install Lion, it automatically creates an invisible hidden "hard drive" (a partition of your main drive that has its own icon) called Recover HD. It's a 650-megabyte "drive" that's generally invisible to you. It's even invisible to Disk Utility, so even if you erase your hard drive, the Recovery HD is still there to help you. ... On it, Apple has provided some emergency tools for fixing drive or software glitches, restoring files, browsing the Web, and even reinstalling Lion.'


Edited by grelber (11/09/11 04:20 PM)
Edit Reason: Lion Recovery HD

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#19024 - 11/09/11 04:19 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I agree with your provisos as legitimate concerns.

However, I suspect I can get close to "pristine" (ie, not likely corrupted, nascently or otherwise, re 10.7.2 + updated third-party applications) by selecting my first backup as the restore version.
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating (restoring), if such is ever necessary.

True, but
  1. Your first backup will be lacking both some personality and perhaps much content which you'll have to drag piecemeal from later backups and
  2. I believe your first backup will eventually be overwritten.
Fingers crossed that the issue will never be other than a hypothetical one.

I've been meaning to point out, and the present line of discussion is as good an opening as any, that a computer used to be self-sufficient in a sense...kinda like the Phoenix.

Even if you crashed and burned and lost everything, you always had that magic restore disc that you could pop into the slot and, in about an hour, have a brand new computer all ready to begin regrouping and collecting new data.

But now you need that damned high-speed Internet connection.

Boo!!! mad

Apple can keep its Restore partition; I'll be happy with a restore disc any time.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19025 - 11/09/11 04:22 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Rats! You beat my edit by seconds. Please check out same (and see if it changes your mind, re your last post).

EDIT: Given that so far my backups are using 24GB of 1000GB, with incremental backups on the order of +1-5MB, I suspect I won't have to worry about my first one ever being deleted/overwritten. My total files are at best 3GB.


Edited by grelber (11/09/11 04:28 PM)
Edit Reason: Overwriting comment

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#19026 - 11/09/11 04:27 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I'm not sure who among this thread's contributors has or doesn't have Lion, so just let me point out (grâce à Pogue, p 848) to artie and others who don't have Lion:

'When you install Lion, it automatically creates an invisible hidden "hard drive" (a partition of your main drive that has its own icon) called Recover HD. It's a 650-megabyte "drive" that's generally invisible to you. It's even invisible to Disk Utility, so even if you erase your hard drive, the Recovery HD is still there to help you. ... On it, Apple has provided some emergency tools for fixing drive or software glitches, restoring files, browsing the Web, and even reinstalling Lion.'

That-all may have been covered in this thread or (an)other(s), but thanks for (re-)presenting it in this context.

That "even reinstalling Lion" part is kinda misleading, though, without mentioning that high-speed Internet is required for that particular function.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19027 - 11/09/11 04:30 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
That "even reinstalling Lion" part is kinda misleading, though, without mentioning that high-speed Internet is required for that particular function.

According to Pogue, it isn't ... unless your hard drive is totally kaput and requires replacement. (And that's where TM comes in.)

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#19028 - 11/09/11 04:30 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
And you beat my post!

I don't see why you think you edit would have changed my mind...clarification please.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#19030 - 11/09/11 04:41 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
That "even reinstalling Lion" part is kinda misleading, though, without mentioning that high-speed Internet is required for that particular function.

According to Pogue, it isn't ... unless your hard drive is totally kaput and requires replacement. (And that's where TM comes in.)

Given what I said, I thought you might change your mind, since I thought Lion installed a copy of itself onto Recover HD.
I went back and re-read Pogue who appended a note that 'it requires an Internet connection and a lot of patience.' In other words you're right.

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