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#18613 - 10/20/11 12:05 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Quote:
In grelber's shoes, would you find the option of buying a $70 thumb drive an acceptable alternative to the free discs you used to get with a new Mac?

Hmm...if I could afford the purchase of a new iMac with four times as many processors as my first Mac, running at 100 times the clock speed, with a hard drive with 3125 times the capacity, 1000 times as much RAM, and a camera, wireless and Bluetooth built in, for 70% of the price of that first Mac, I think my insistence on feeling screwed over by Apple because of the need to shell out $70 I didn't need to spend back then would be misplaced.

Huh?

Let's suppose that you've just upgraded from your Chevy to a new Lexus, and the owner's manual tells you that
  • Tires rarely go flat.
  • Most people wouldn't even know how to change a flat tire if they encountered one.
  • Most people have cell phones and can call for roadside assistance.
  • Therefore, Lexus is no longer including spare tires with its cars, so you can either buy one for (70/1200 = x/36000 -->) $2100(!) or, if you haven't got a cell phone, sit in the middle of the Mojave Desert and wait until somebody stops and offers assistance.
I expect that you'd not be so blase about that!
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18615 - 10/20/11 03:38 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

But, in fact, the typical contemporary car doesn't come with a full-size spare tire! (Thanks for making my point for me.) Most models ship with a temporary little "donut" spare not rated for sustained driving but sufficient to get one to a repair facility; others use so-called "run-flat" tires and are provided without a spare at all, or include tire sealant and an onboard compressor.

The analogy is flawed in any case, because upgrading an iMac to an iMac—which is what grelber did—would be like upgrading a Chevy to a new Chevy. Further, your reasoning for how to assign a theoretical upcharge for a spare tire is absurd; there's no reason at all to equate the proportionate value of a spare tire to that of a USB installer drive. It's much more likely that Chevy ("Repair kits are standard in most General Motors Co. cars and crossovers, but customers can add a spare to most vehicles for an extra $100 to $150") adds a margin (say, $60) to the cost of providing a donut—just as Apple does with the the USB installer.

No, the true outrage with the USB installer is the size of the margin relative to the cost of providing it. And while this margin percentagewise clearly exceeds that of the typical overpriced Apple upgrade (RAM being the classic example), in absolute terms it's pretty negligible. That was really my point—all this hue and cry is being raised over what amounts to a sixty-buck penalty for refusing to get with the broadband program. And, if you haven't looked lately, Apple has been steering the entire company towards high-speed, always-connected devices and services for quite awhile now, and applying a tariff to dial-up users is fully consistent with that trajectory.

Yes, $69 for a USB stick is a bit pricey. But, sorry, it just doesn't rate High Dudgeon.
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#18687 - 10/25/11 12:07 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
What on Earth...?

I was simply comparing how two companies that pride themselves on being "Class Acts," Apple and Lexus, have reacted to roughly analogous situations.

And in doing so, I farcically pointed out the ridiculous price tag a Lexus spare tire, donut, whatever would carry if it were priced proportionally to Apple's "spare tire" (which, by the way, will not come with bundled apps [if there still are such things] and, so, may not be a complete solution).

And while I can't question Apple's having directed itself towards "high-speed, always-connected devices and services," I can find serious reason to question its apparently thumbing its nose at upwards of 10% of American and Canadian computer users, plus a perhaps (likely?) greater percentage of the rest of the world, in the process.

Why should anybody be penalized for not having broadband service? Dial-up may not be "The Thing," but it's far from deprecated technology.

Apple can copy Dell and Gateway marketing tactics, but labeling them "green" doesn't make them any less cheap or cheesy.

But is my "outrage" out of line?

What say you, grelber, whose wine cellar will be a couple of bottles less full by virtue of dk's having so magnanimously ceded sixty nine of your dollars to Apple, for a possibly incomplete solution, no less, as a "penalty for (your) refusing to get with the broadband program?"
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18688 - 10/25/11 12:19 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think we maybe ought to drop this discussion at this point and wait for some real-world reports; I suspect that Apple will come up with something when the skata starts hitting the fan.

We can only hope and pray and prey.

I think it's about time the ball got bounced back to your court, grelber...

You started this thread to find out "how would I create a bootable install disk," and we've now established that Apple has stranded you north of the 49th with neither roadside assistance nor a spare tire (or, for dk's benefit, any manner of substitute therefor), so I think it's time for you to get on the horn to Apple and spearhead the campaign to see what can be gotten out of them.

I know for sure that I neither have to script you nor explain the benefits of escalating to higher authorities. grin
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18907 - 11/03/11 07:34 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think we maybe ought to drop this discussion at this point and wait for some real-world reports; I suspect that Apple will come up with something when the skata starts hitting the fan.

We can only hope and pray and prey.

Please indulge my curiosity, grelber...

You started this thread to find out "how would I create a bootable install disk" and have watched it meander to a so-far conclusionless conclusion, so may I ask why you've apparently disassociated yourself from it without helping it reach its logical conclusion by determining what Apple may be willing to do to accommodate you and the many others stuck in your situation?

I'd make the call myself, but I haven't got the pre-requisites.

Thanks.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18909 - 11/04/11 02:34 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I haven't added anything to the discussion because most of it has been well beyond my ken. The takeaway lesson I got is that a bootable backup disk for OS X Lion isn't possible, even though some of the contributors say it is. From the discussion it would certain be beyond my power to do it — although I'm hopeful that by going page by page through Pogue's book I might at some point take a stab at it.

At one point a senior advisor at Apple suggested that he might be able to provide that thumb drive with Lion install info on it gratis, but he'd have to obtain a special dispensation to do so (and he wasn't sanguine about the outcome). I gave up on Apple's tech support at that point.

As noted, I plan to go through all 900+ pages of Pogue's book (which arrived 11 hours ago) slowly and deliberately. Already I've learned that command-comma opens Preferences in all applications, as well as the iPad form (Magic Mouse) and function (MM behavior), which I had already come to terms with and am grateful to my sister for having allowed me to play (~ mess around) with her iPad back a couple months ago so that I came to the task quasi-primed. So I'll march on from there.

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#18911 - 11/04/11 03:06 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> "all 900+ pages of Pogue's book"

So there's at least 900 pages of stuff that I don't know (and haven't missed...yet). :shrug:

Thanks for responding, and with the key info, no less.

As I suggested, even a thumb drive might not be the real deal, because it wouldn't include the bundled apps that I assume came with your iMac. (And that assumes that an Internet Restore will read your configuration and include them.)

I just dunno... It looks like Apple actually is telling a percentage of the world that their only option in the event of catastrophe is to unplug their Macs and carry them next door to a neighbor's house, or across town to a cousin's, or to work, to, so to speak, "borrow a cup of Internet."

And they're telling an additional percentage of the world to whom broadband just plain isn't available that they don't really want a Mac any more. confused

That is, of course, unless paying US$69 for a (Edit: possibly incomplete) thumb drive is considered to be a reasonable fix. (You'd think they'd at least give people in your position a major break on the price.)

On a lighter note... I'm happy to hear that you've apparently overcome your initial reluctance to embrace your new iMac and have gotten into the swing of things; I hope you're enjoying it.


Edited by artie505 (11/04/11 03:08 AM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18917 - 11/04/11 08:29 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I don't understand your conclusion. It is possible to get Lion bootable backup disk very easily. The bottleneck is only your internet speed (and maybe your reluctance to persevere). If you really wanted it, it would not be impossible to find a place with fast Internet connection (even at an Apple store) or even pay for an Apple dongle. I think this discussion reached its logical end. Anyway, hope you won't need that backup disk for a long while!


Edited by macnerd10 (11/04/11 08:29 PM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18918 - 11/04/11 09:46 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
even a thumb drive might not be the real deal, because it wouldn't include the bundled apps

Or it might include them... but then again, those would be backed up elsewhere anyway (e.g. a Time Capsule).

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#18919 - 11/04/11 10:34 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> "[...] it would not be impossible to find a place with fast Internet connection [...] or even pay for an Apple dongle."

You're missing the point... Much of the thrust of this thread has been that nobody should have to do either!

But yeah... You're correct about this thread having reached its logical conclusion.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18920 - 11/04/11 10:44 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Originally Posted By: artie505
even a thumb drive might not be the real deal, because it wouldn't include the bundled apps

Or it might include them... but then again, those would be backed up elsewhere anyway (e.g. a Time Capsule).

Maybe (if Apple sees fit to create machine specific thumb drives); only maybe.

And while either a Time Machine or other such backup is certainly a most excellent idea, it is not necessarily the way all users run, much though Apple would prefer that we all buy Time Capsules. frown
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18921 - 11/04/11 11:40 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Actually, I did not miss the point, I replied to a concrete post. And I agree that for upgraders, the current procedure is OK, but for those with new computers it is a little cold shower. But if we must adapt to this situation, "where there is a will, there is a way".
Maybe I am lucky, but I don't recall to have used system disk since at least Tiger.
For those who disagree, what Apple should have done on new computers, IMHO, is at least have included full OS version on the recovery HD partition without the need to download. These days, any new computer has an HD large enough to sacrifice 4GB.


Edited by macnerd10 (11/04/11 11:46 PM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18923 - 11/05/11 12:00 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> [...] what Apple should have done on new computers, IMHO, is at least have included full OS version on the recovery HD partition without the need to download.

Edit: And, for users in grelber's situation, a way to burn it to a disc.

That would have been a fine solution... green, cost-efficient, even, shudder, logical!


Edited by artie505 (11/05/11 12:32 AM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup +
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18924 - 11/05/11 12:17 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> But if we must adapt to this situation, "where there is a will, there is a way".

Wow!!! That just exploded into a mushroom cloud...

Whatever on Earth has become of "It just works?" shocked grin
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18925 - 11/05/11 01:08 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> [...] or even pay for an Apple dongle.

It just occurred to me that although both (and maybe not only) V1 and dkmarsh have made the point that $69 is pretty pricey for a thumb drive with an OS that only costs $30 to d/l and would probably only cost $35 on a disc, we've all overlooked the fact that users such as grelber would be paying that same stiff price for no more than a hard copy of the OS they already bought and paid for when they bought their Macs!

And, by the way, it looks like Apple is enforcing the $69 price by refusing to wholesale OS X Lion USB Thumb Drives to resellers who could then discount them. (Does anybody remember that I suggested a while back that it looked like Apple was maybe squeezing resellers out of the OS X distribution process?)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18926 - 11/05/11 01:25 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
I don't understand your conclusion. It is possible to get Lion bootable backup disk very easily. The bottleneck is only your internet speed (and maybe your reluctance to persevere). If you really wanted it, it would not be impossible to find a place with fast Internet connection (even at an Apple store) or even pay for an Apple dongle.

No offense, but ...

If it were easy, how come this thread is so long? And I can get fast access to the Internet but only for downloading updates onto a thumb drive. But nowhere in this discussion do I recall that such is possible for acquiring install media; it certainly isn't an option on Apple's download site.

And I haven't forgotten your generous offer (in post #18303), for which I'm grateful.

If I were reluctant to persevere, why would I have gotten Pogue's book and commented in that same post that "I plan to go through all 900+ pages of Pogue's book ... slowly and deliberately"? (At present I'm up to page 37.)

I wouldn't know a dongle if I met one in the street, and if I had to pay for it ... well, you know what that's tantamount to. tongue wink
According to TechTerms.com (a nice little site for non-cogniscienti like me) a dongle is a security key, but I don't understand how such would apply here.


Edited by grelber (11/05/11 01:40 AM)
Edit Reason: dongle definition

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#18927 - 11/05/11 01:34 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> But nowhere in this discussion do I recall that such is possible for acquiring install media; it certainly isn't an option on Apple's download site.

I'm certain that it's already been mentioned, but I'll repeat, rather than research, that the only known way to acquire a bootable backup disc (of which I'm aware, anyhow) is to purchase Lion from the App Store, extract the appropriate file from the d/l, and burn it to a disc.
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18928 - 11/05/11 01:42 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: artie505
... the only known way to acquire a bootable backup disc (of which I'm aware, anyhow) is to purchase Lion from the App Store, extract the appropriate file from the d/l, and burn it to a disc.

Exactly (other than the offer mentioned previously).

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#18932 - 11/05/11 05:09 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
...we've all overlooked the fact that users such as grelber would be paying that same stiff price for no more than a hard copy of the OS they already bought and paid for when they bought their Macs!

Disinclude me from your list of the oblivious, please; that's been clear to me all along. The "stiff price" you're bemoaning, as I've said earlier, is simply a tax on those who resist entering the broadband era, since it can easily be avoided as described by ganbustein above...if one has a fast internet connection.

The existence of the Mac App Store (and before it, the iTunes store) might be the most obvious testimony to Apple's commitment to a future in which our Macs are populated with content downloaded from remote servers, but Lion Recovery, Lion Internet Recovery, and iCloud all point in the same direction.

The MacBook Air and the Mac mini point up a further reason for Apple's disinclination to provide an easy Lion install-disc remedy: they have no optical drives. (Imagine that a Lion install disc were available under some "Apple Fulfillment" policy for a nominal S&H fee of ten bucks, and that grelber had purchased a MacBook Air. Would you wax apoplectic on his behalf over Apple's "forcing" him to purchase an external optical drive to make use of such a disc?) Apple is clearly focused fully on a future in which content is acquired remotely.

To me, the difficulty someone in grelber's position encounters with respect to this issue is exactly the same as the difficulty I encounter trying to stay productive with a PPC Mac: Apple is moving in directions which require an upgraded setup to be fully taken advantage of. In grelber's case, it's the connection speed that's the weak link; in mine it's the hardware.

I doubt even you could get too worked up on behalf of someone whose Mac is 6+ years old being "left behind." Instead of focusing on grelber's brand new iMac failing to be fully supported by Apple, try looking at it as his twenty year old internet access technology that's being abandoned.

[Stylistic aside: I don't know about other folks here, but to me, your employment of bold red italicized text to emphasize your key points is very akin to the "shouting" in all-upper-case letters that we all avoid as a matter of polite form. Any one of those three formatting enhancements would be sufficient to distinguish the emphasized text from its surroundings.

Though I suspect your combination of all three is simply an expression of how passionately you feel about the point being made, the effect (on this reader, at least) is to imply that your point doesn't stand on its own...]
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dkmarsh • member, FineTunedMac Co-op Board of Directors

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#18933 - 11/05/11 05:59 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: dkmarsh]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

[Stylistic aside: I don't know about other folks here, but to me, your employment of bold red italicized text to emphasize your key points is very akin to the "shouting" in all-upper-case letters that we all avoid as a matter of polite form. Any one of those three formatting enhancements would be sufficient to distinguish the emphasized text from its surroundings.

Though I suspect your combination of all three is simply an expression of how passionately you feel about the point being made, the effect (on this reader, at least) is to imply that your point doesn't stand on its own...]



while I agree with everything you have said, I did laugh when I noticed your signature!!

wink
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stuff I'm interested in
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#18935 - 11/05/11 10:14 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
It just occurred to me that although both (and maybe not only) V1 and dkmarsh have made the point that $69 is pretty pricey for a thumb drive with an OS that only costs $30 to d/l and would probably only cost $35 on a disc, we've all overlooked the fact that users such as grelber would be paying that same stiff price for no more than a hard copy of the OS they already bought and paid for when they bought their Macs!

And, by the way, it looks like Apple is enforcing the $69 price by refusing to wholesale OS X Lion USB Thumb Drives to resellers who could then discount them. (Does anybody remember that I suggested a while back that it looked like Apple was maybe squeezing resellers out of the OS X distribution process?)

A blank dvd disc costs what?... two bucks tops? I musta missed your passionate posts when Apple sold Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger and Leopard on dvd for almost $130.

smirk

[Not to mention: a thumb drive can be reused years later, when Lion becomes irrelevant. What can i use my $500 worth of Puma, Jaguar, Panther & Tiger dvds for now? ]


Edited by Hal Itosis (11/05/11 10:23 AM)

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#18936 - 11/05/11 11:46 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Could not agree more!
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18944 - 11/05/11 11:51 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
You're as hopelessly stuck in your position as I am in mine, and I don't care to go 'round in the same circle again, so I'm not getting into the point-by-point response I could post.

But how about directing your copious research skills towards finding out (as I've been unable to do) what percentage of the world has "resist(ed) entering the broadband era" simply because it just plain does not have access to broadband, and, further, what percentage of the world has broadband but is hobbled by capped bandwidth?

(Your stylistic aside has made its point, but "my combination of all three" is, from my point of view, an expression of frustration...exasperation.)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18945 - 11/06/11 12:00 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Originally Posted By: artie505
It just occurred to me that although both (and maybe not only) V1 and dkmarsh have made the point that $69 is pretty pricey for a thumb drive with an OS that only costs $30 to d/l and would probably only cost $35 on a disc, we've all overlooked the fact that users such as grelber would be paying that same stiff price for no more than a hard copy of the OS they already bought and paid for when they bought their Macs!

And, by the way, it looks like Apple is enforcing the $69 price by refusing to wholesale OS X Lion USB Thumb Drives to resellers who could then discount them. (Does anybody remember that I suggested a while back that it looked like Apple was maybe squeezing resellers out of the OS X distribution process?)

A blank dvd disc costs what?... two bucks tops? I musta missed your passionate posts when Apple sold Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger and Leopard on dvd for almost $130.

smirk

[Not to mention: a thumb drive can be reused years later, when Lion becomes irrelevant. What can i use my $500 worth of Puma, Jaguar, Panther & Tiger dvds for now? ]

We uncomplainingly paid those prices for new "technology," not to acquire a hard copy of the OS we'd already paid for when we bought our Macs.


Edited by artie505 (11/06/11 12:29 AM)
Edit Reason: Cleanup
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#18950 - 11/06/11 09:39 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Corporations are unfair, we all know that, and Apple is no exception. In this situation, we have to cope with Apple's aggressive marketing strategy because there seems to be no other way. Hopefully, Apple will realize that it made a mistake and clean up their act for people who bought Lion-running Macs. Or offer a big discount for the USB drive to those who are on dial–up. Frankly, I personally would bitch only if the dial-up download is interrupted; if not, let it go overnight and then save the installer that downloads from the recovery partition. I hope it does not automatically launch and then disappear. In the latter instance, I would fully side with you!


Edited by macnerd10 (11/06/11 09:40 AM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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