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#18702 - 10/25/11 03:48 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: ganbustein
That must be for the Time Capsule, which is overkill for an iMac. You don't need that. Any external drive will do. Firewire is better than USB, but USB will do. Get one with about twice the capacity as the data you expect to have on your drive. (If you've got a 1TB internal drive, with 200MB on it which might grow to 250MB, you should look for at least 500MB. By the time you outgrow that, 20TB drives will sell for pennies.)

Time Capsule: I must have misread the box.
I can't understand your comments about external drive size (measured in MB).
I've got a 500GB internal drive and info tells me that I'm using 23GB of that. Given that my personal files constitute less than 3GB (including 1GB of music, which I don't really care about), that's 20GB of god-knows-what.

Originally Posted By: grelber
My backups have been solely content-oriented, by which I mean I save my documents on a CD from time to time (but my Toast Titanium won't work here), so I imagine — if I can ever figure out how the CD/DVD burner on this machine works — that I might be able to use that.

Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Sounds good enough in theory, but believe me, in practice it's woefully inadequate. If you're doing it manually, you aren't backing up.

Then I totally misunderstand what it means to back up my stuff. I've only ever wanted to save my personal files — which is what I've done.
What is the point of saving any of the rest of it? I can't make a bootable disk out of it (from all that I've read in the Forums), so that'd be a waste of time and space. And what would be the point of copying all that stuff over and over?
(In the event of a total crash, there would be nothing I could manage anyway, other than to take the machine to the recycling depot.)

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#18703 - 10/25/11 04:32 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
I can certainly relate to your reluctance to use third-party applications and make modifications. I felt that way when I started in OS 9 and I wouldn't even update Apple software! Still, if you want to solve your problem, you'll have to take action of some sort.

OnyX has been around for a long time and is a very reliable maintenance app. Deleting .DS_Store files is harmless but you should be prepared for the resumption of default settings on file and folder positions. They will regenerate as fresh, virgin files when you re-arrange your desktop. It is akin to deleting preference files in that you will have to reset preferences but then you'll have brand new preference files that store your preferences.

Bottom line: If you are afraid to try anything, even those things that are benign, you'll never get anywhere.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.5, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#18704 - 10/25/11 06:58 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Another interesting feature/failure of my iMac and/or 10.7.2: The last Apple advisor I spoke with wanted me to do a Safe Boot (ostensibly to see if third-party applications could be interfering with the OS); it wouldn't do a Safe Boot (ie, no label identifying Safe Boot came up upon login, even though an unusual progress bar showed up beneath the Apple logo and spinning wheel during restart).

In a dozen years of using my iMac DV SE running OS 9 I never had a problem — no data loss, no crashes, no malfunctions. The only issues I experienced were/are not being able to gain access to certain websites (due to change in websites) and even then my old system could find what was on a "blank" page merely by cutting and pasting "All" onto a Word document.

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#18711 - 10/25/11 09:35 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
... it wouldn't do a Safe Boot (ie, no label identifying Safe Boot came up upon login, even though an unusual progress bar showed up beneath the Apple logo and spinning wheel during restart).

Given this description of events, your Mac may actually have booted into Safe Mode despite the lack of label to that effect. Check out the Apple Discussions thread I don't think Mac OS X Lion is entering Safe Boot mode where behavior is seen similar to your iMac's.

It is interesting to note that several KB articles about Safe Mode do not specifically mention Lion, but imply that they refer to it as well (see Mac OS X: What is Safe Boot, Safe Mode? and Mac OS X: Starting up in Safe Mode).
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#18714 - 10/25/11 12:03 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Good info in the discussion group and other articles. Thanks.
I tried looking into Console log for SAFE BOOT around the time we supposedly did it; I can't find anything which remotely resembles that — certainly nothing of the sort "SAFE BOOT DETECTED" as described in the discussion group.
CORRECTION: I didn't go back far enough. I did find:
11-10-24 4:21:16.000 kernel: SAFE BOOT DETECTED - only valid OSBundleRequired kexts will be loaded.


As an aside, I see hundreds of entries of the following sort:
11-10-24 6:52:26.202 Firewall: Stealth Mode connection attempt to UDP 200.205.145.22:54216 from 209.115.142.132:53.
That's rather scary. What's that all about? Nefarious types trying to attack my computer?


Edited by grelber (10/25/11 12:09 PM)
Edit Reason: Correction

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#18715 - 10/25/11 01:35 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
As an aside, I see hundreds of entries of the following sort:
11-10-24 6:52:26.202 Firewall: Stealth Mode connection attempt to UDP 200.205.145.22:54216 from 209.115.142.132:53.
That's rather scary. What's that all about? Nefarious types trying to attack my computer?

This type of language is normal and nothing to be worried about. For some explanation, see the Apple Discussion thread Am I being hacked?? HAVE I been hacked?

PS, if you have more questions about this, we'd better set this up as a separate thread.
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#18718 - 10/25/11 04:02 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: tacit]
joemikeb Online

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: tacit
.DS_Store files are folder specific. Each folder gets one, and they are used for that folder no matter which user is logged in. A problem in a .DS_Store file would persist for any user, so it's not impossible that's the problem.

(Grelber you are going to love this — NOT crazy )

Yes but.. Not every folder gets a .DS_Store file. A DS_Store file is only created when the view for a particular folder or the location of the window on the desktop is modified. This is further confused by the view that is seen is inherited from the view in the highest level folder that is opened. For example if you open say the /User folder in column view and drill down to /User/youraccount/Library/Preferences everything will be displayed in column view set for the /User folder — even if the lower level folders have their own .DS_Store files and are set to open in another view. The same is true of List view and Cover Flow view. Icon view is the exception to this rule. In icon view each folder that is opened as you drill down through folder levels will be displayed according to the view setting in its unique .DS_Store file or lacking a .DS_Store file your default view setting. I suspect the reason Apple made the icon view an exception was to preserve some resemblance to the OS 9 behavior. This top down .DS_Store effect or the default effect that may be causing the behavior you are seeing with folders imported from OS 9.

Whether this helps your understanding of what is going on or adds further confusion, I don't know. Personally I long ago settled on Column view for everything which always presents a consistent viewpoint.

Jon has already mentioned OnyX, but TinkerTool System and Cocktail will also delete either individual .DS_Store files or optionally drill down through an entire folder hierarchy to delete all the included .DS_Store files.
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#18720 - 10/25/11 04:23 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: alternaut]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: alternaut
This type of language is normal and nothing to be worried about. For some explanation, see the Apple Discussion thread Am I being hacked?? HAVE I been hacked?

A good example of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
That discussion thread was thoroughly explanatory (but still scary). Merci.

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#18721 - 10/25/11 04:33 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: joemikeb]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
To ease your mind, it is both confusing and otherwise.

I have noticed that rather weird behavior, namely of opening a folder and having it display in a manner not of my choosing, over and over again. I set it in icon view, mutz around with other files, sometimes in list, sometimes in column view, and go back to the first folder to find it in some other view.
Very annoying, to say the least.

Apple should have built a simple solution into OS X to deal with this issue (rather than requiring users to seek out third-party applications to do the job — which job shouldn't have to be done in the first place).

Short of futzing about with deleting .DS_Store files (with all the attendant mystery [to my mind]), I guess the best way to deal with the issue is to grin and bear it — although what I'd like to bare to Apple is something entirely different.

Again, it's passing curious that Apple advisors, both frontline and senior, seem to be totally unaware of the issue in light of your elegant description of same.

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#18722 - 10/25/11 05:03 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: grelber
I have noticed that rather weird behavior, namely of opening a folder and having it display in a manner not of my choosing, over and over again. I set it in icon view, mutz around with other files, sometimes in list, sometimes in column view, and go back to the first folder to find it in some other view.
Very annoying, to say the least.

Did you make sure to checkmark the "Always open in _____ view" box, for each of those folders in which you always want that particular view? That feature should work fine in Lion and Snowy (tho Leopard was a bad cat with respect to that feature).

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#18724 - 10/26/11 01:22 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I would if I could, but there doesn't seem to be any way to do so (at least not in Lion).
Selecting a folder and checking info: No choice.
Selecting a folder and checking view options: No choice.
Creating new folder and checking view options: No choice.
I've been through everything which seems relevant, but no option to always open a folder in X view presents itself.
Is there some place else I should look?

EDIT: I just found something similar. Opening a folder and selecting the little "gear" menu beneath the folder's title provides a different Show View Options, which when selected comes up with a modified info panel, the top item of which is a checkbox "Always open in icon view". That's close to what you were suggesting. Back to my last question: Is there some place else I should look (to find your options)?


Edited by grelber (10/26/11 02:34 AM)

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#18727 - 10/26/11 07:31 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: grelber
Opening a folder and selecting the little "gear" menu beneath the folder's title provides a different Show View Options, which when selected comes up with a modified info panel, the top item of which is a checkbox "Always open in icon view". That's close to what you were suggesting.

Extremely so.

Originally Posted By: grelber
Back to my last question: Is there some place else I should look (to find your options)?

I don't have Lion, so i can't say if Apple has moved that option, or where to. Seems like you've found it though. [in Leopard/Snowy the place was 'View' menu --> Show View Options ⌘J' ]


hmm, there seem to be 8 mentions of ' View Options' back on page one.


Edited by Hal Itosis (10/26/11 07:34 AM)

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#18729 - 10/26/11 09:17 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: Hal Itosis]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
I don't have Lion, so i can't say if Apple has moved that option, or where to. Seems like you've found it though. [in Leopard/Snowy the place was 'View' menu --> Show View Options ⌘J']

That's so. In View menu that's what shows up — but it doesn't offer there the option I found under the "gear" in an opened folder window and there's no option of choosing any other "always" view, as you were suggesting.
So I guess that's the only option now available (and cleverly disguised/hidden it is).
I'm going to have to make it a habit of examining those little "gear" drop-down menus (or whatever they're called) whenever they show up; they've provided a ton of additional choices which are extremely worthwhile (eg, the cut-and-paste "gear" which changes any format to straight text with a single click).

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#18769 - 10/29/11 01:20 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: joemikeb]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Not every folder gets a .DS_Store file. A DS_Store file is only created when the view for a particular folder or the location of the window on the desktop is modified.

The only application that creates, reads, or updates a .DS_Store file is Finder. Finder stores all sorts of information in the .DS_Store file, creating it when it has something to store. View settings are only a part of what Finder stores there.

Finder will create a .DS_Store file in a folder if:
  • You view the non-empty folder in Icon view (so it can save the icon positions of the items).
  • Any item in the folder has a Spotlight comment (so it can save the comment).
  • Any item in the folder has a preview (so it can cache the preview).
  • You change the view settings of any sub-folder (so it can save the sub-folder's view settings). Note that merely changing the view of a window does not necessarily change the view settings for the folder it's viewing.
  • You change the view settings, icon position, or Spotlight comment of the folder itself, and the .DS_Store file for the parent folder cannot be modified. (The .DS_Store file inside a folder will substitute for the .DS_Store file of the folder's parent, but only if needed.)
The creation/updating of the .DS_Store file may be postponed until Finder quits normally, which usually happens at logout. It will be postponed forever if Finder cannot create/update the .DS_Store file.

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#18770 - 10/29/11 01:39 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
In View menu that's what shows up — but it doesn't offer there the option I found under the "gear" in an opened folder window and there's no option of choosing any other "always" view, as you were suggesting.

That's because of the distinction I went to great lengths to explain earlier, between "the desktop" and the "Desktop" folder. "The desktop" is the area on your screen not hidden by windows, and is always in Desktop View. If you look at View Options for "the desktop", you won't see an "Always open in ..." menu, because it's always open and always in Desktop View.

On the other hand, if you open a window into any folder, even if it's the "Desktop" folder, View Options will show an "Always Open in ..." option, offering the window's current view. You will never be offered the option to "Always open in desktop view", because the current view of a window into a folder will never be Desktop View. Only "the desktop" is ever in Desktop View.

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#18782 - 10/30/11 06:42 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I must be missing something obvious.
I've never wanted or tried to open anything in "Desktop view".
So I can't understand why this would be an issue and/or how it would apply to anything I'm concerned about.

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#18795 - 10/30/11 04:44 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I must be missing something obvious.
I've never wanted or tried to open anything in "Desktop view".
So I can't understand why this would be an issue and/or how it would apply to anything I'm concerned about.

Do you ever use your computer? Is Finder ever running? Is there a desktop on your screen? (Hint: the answer to all three questions is YES.)

Then you've opened something in Desktop View. Specifically, every time you log in, Finder launches automatically, and Finder automatically draws your desktop, always drawing it in Desktop View.

The reason this is important to you is that you were complaining that when you use the "Show View Options" menu, the dialog that appears does not have an "Always open in ..." line, despite several people telling you it should be there.

The reason you're not seeing it is that you're looking at the View Options for your desktop, which is ALWAYS in Desktop View. The View Options for Desktop View does not have such a line, because for the desktop there is no choice of view.

If you bring any other "Finder window" (by which I mean any window that Finder uses to show you your files) to the front by clicking on it, the View Options dialog will update, to show a checkbox for "Always open in xxx view", where xxx is whatever view that window is currently in. If you click back on your desktop (or close all your Finder windows), the "Always open in ..." checkbox will disappear, because the View Options window will again be showing you the options relevant to Desktop View.

I'm explaining all of this so you will understand what you're seeing on your screen and why it seems to be different from what you've been told you'll see. When you see one of my posts that doesn't seem to relate to your problem, read it again. Read it as many times as it takes to make sense of it, because everything I tell you is related to some issue you've reported having. It really bugs me when I take the time to explain something to you, you dismiss it with "that doesn't have anything to do with me", and then ask the exact same question I just answered.

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#18801 - 10/30/11 10:52 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: ganbustein
The reason this is important to you is that you were complaining that when you use the "Show View Options" menu, the dialog that appears does not have an "Always open in ..." line, despite several people telling you it should be there.

I am perhaps the only guilty party who raised theAlways open in ___ viewspectre, but in my defense it was because the topic had drifted off the desktop momentarily, when grelber mentioned this:
Originally Posted By: grelber
I have noticed that rather weird behavior, namely of opening a folder and having it display in a manner not of my choosing, over and over again. I set it in icon view, mutz around with other files, sometimes in list, sometimes in column view, and go back to the first folder to find it in some other view.
Very annoying, to say the least.


Since i don't have Lion, i can't dispute his belief that the Action menu (gear icon) and the main menubar are offering different View options... but somehow the confusion seems contagious. wink

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#18805 - 10/31/11 01:07 AM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Originally Posted By: ganbustein
It really bugs me when I take the time to explain something to you, you dismiss it with "that doesn't have anything to do with me", and then ask the exact same question I just answered.

First off, I apologize for my wording; no offense intended.

Second, the issue has gotten derailed because I was (mis)interpreting "Always open in xxx view" to mean that there was a list of choices for xxx, which I see now (after having just "played" with different folder view settings), of course, there isn't; as you said, the choice is always given for the folder view which presents itself.

Knowing that, all the stars come into alignment (ie, it is easy to deal with the issue). Indeed, I was missing something obvious. So many thanks.

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#18872 - 11/02/11 03:05 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
This item is being moved (as requested) to a new thread under Peripherals.

Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Any external drive will do. Firewire is better than USB, but USB will do. Get one with about twice the capacity as the data you expect to have on your drive. (If you've got a 1TB internal drive, with 200MB on it which might grow to 250MB, you should look for at least 500MB. By the time you outgrow that, 20TB drives will sell for pennies.)

Just before my copy of Pogue's book arrives, I've been scoping out various external hard drives.
There seem to be a whole host available, mostly USB (including USB 3), all of which need to be reformatted for Leopard and Snow Leopard (meaning that nothing is going to be formatted for Lion — and I wouldn't have a clue how to do any of that anyway).
I have yet to find a Firewire drive.

In any event, what exactly would be necessary to make use of this Time Machine function in my iMac? What frequency of backup might be warranted? And what might I use such backups for (since a crash of the iMac can't ostensibly be corrected by a backup, at least as far as I can comprehend the discussion in that thread).

In light of the foregoing, what brand names and models do FTM folk recommend? I'd like to keep the price reasonable, preferably (well) under a hundred bucks.


Edited by grelber (11/02/11 05:18 PM)
Edit Reason: Request to start new thread

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#18875 - 11/02/11 03:22 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
cyn Online

Administrator

Registered: 08/03/09
New thread, please.

PS: It's generally considered impolite to edit a post after it's been replied to. If you choose to ignore that, please at least keep the "Mark as Edited" box checked so that my post isn't left without any context.
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#18879 - 11/02/11 05:28 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: cyn]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
No slight intended (in previous post removals).
When requested to start a new thread, I thought that it was de rigueuror at least appropriate to remove the 'offending' post and that the administrator would then remove the request to do so. I stand corrected.

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#19324 - 11/22/11 09:05 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: grelber]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
I thought this problem had been resolved (beyond my ken how).
But it isn't.
Create a folder; put on Desktop.
Create a document or cut-and-paste an article or download a .eml document; then put in folder.
Drag item back to Desktop, which then sees it snap to upper left corner of screen; do with more items from folder, and they stack up in upper left corner of screen.
Drag one or all to another spot on Desktop and they stay where they're dropped.
Put back in folder and then drag and drop onto Desktop and they now stay where they're dropped.

All of a sudden, I started seeing this problem on my machine. This is good, for four reasons:
  • It proves that it's not some mysterious non-reproducible gremlin on greiber's machine. It's an honest-to-goodness Finder bug.
  • It means I could play with it, moving/deleting preference files and .DS_Store files to see what exactly were the bounds of the problem.
  • I could file a bug report with Apple, so now they know about it, too. Officially. (Radar #10482554.)
  • I can supply a workaround.


The steps I gave them to reproduce are:
Quote:
Summary:
When you drag a file FROM a direct subfolder of the desktop TO the desktop, and wait for the icon to change appearance before releasing it, the icon appears in the upper left corner (centered at the point (0,0)) rather than where you dropped it.

Steps to Reproduce:
FOLLOW THESE STEPS EXACTLY! Some steps that appear to be inconsequential turn out to be important.

1) Log in to the Guest account, ensuring that you're working with a pristine user folder with default settings. (The problem, whatever it is, turns out to be unrelated to Preferences, .DS_Store files, View Options, etc., but being able to reproduce the problem while logged in as Guest is the proof of that.)

2) Create a new folder on the Desktop. (You can rename it, or leave it titled "untitled folder", but it must be directly on the desktop, not in some other location in the filesystem.) For convenience, you can open a window into the folder, but don't cover up the folder icon.

3) Get some test documents. The "About Stacks" and "About Downloads" documents in the Dock will do nicely. (Those are both PDFs, but the problem occurs with any file type, even folders.)

4) Drag a test document to the desktop ICON of the folder created in step 2. It won't work to drag the document into the folder WINDOW, nor to an icon on the Dock. (The key element seems to be that you drag to an ICON on the DESKTOP. An alias on the desktop pointing to a folder located elsewhere will also trigger the bug.)

5) Drag the test document from the folder WINDOW to the desktop, but don't release the mouse immediately. After about a second, Finder will adjust the appearance of the icon to match what it will look like on the desktop. After the icon transition is complete, release the mouse (or trackpad) button, completing the drag. (The bug won't manifest itself if you drop the icon before its appearance changes.)

6) The icon will appear in the upper left corner of the desktop. Its center will be at (0,0), but there will be enough of it poking out from behind the menubar that you can drag it to where you wanted it to go. Future drags, from anywhere to anywhere, all work as expected until you repeat step 4.


Expected Results:
Icons dragged to the desktop should always appear where they're dragged to (View Options permitting).

Actual Results:
Icons dragged from a direct subfolder of the desktop to a desktop whose View Options do not imply sorting will appear at the wrong place. (The Guest Account starts with View Options for the desktop set to "Sort by none", another reason for step 1 above.)

Setting View Options for the desktop to "Sort by: Snap to Grid" provides only temporary relief. The first two files dragged to the desktop after setting that option will snap to grid positions near (0,0). The third and later files dragged to the desktop ignore the grid and move to (0,0).


The workarounds all center around step 4. Don't drag to an icon on the desktop. Put the icon elsewhere (like, on the dock), or drag to the folder's window.

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#19325 - 11/22/11 11:43 PM Re: Folder behavior [Re: ganbustein]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
E x a c t l y !
Every point you made is precisely my experience. Thanks for examining it in such detail and reporting it to Apple.
(As I noted in a post subsequent to the one you quoted, the senior Apple advisor I spent 1.5 hours with on the telephone couldn't come up with anything either, although the frontline advisor found the same thing on his machine, which is why he enlisted the help of the senior advisor — equally to no avail, I'm assuming.)
As and when (if) Apple addresses the Finder glitch, do provide a followup here.

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