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#18295 - 10/13/11 05:21 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> UPDATE: apparently you can make such a disk with the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant.

If I understood what I read, the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant enables one to recreate (the) Lion Recovery (partition), presumably on a disc as well as on an HD, but that would still leave grelber in the position of having to d/l the 4(?)Gb Lion installer via a 56Kb modem.

Quote:
The Lion Recovery Disk Assistant lets you create Lion Recovery on an external drive that has all of the same capabilities as the built-in Lion Recovery: reinstall Lion, repair the disk using Disk Utility, restore from a Time Machine backup, or browse the web with Safari. (Lion Recovery Disk Assistant)

If that's correct, it looks like Apple's thumb drive and either a CCC or SD clone are his only options.
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#18296 - 10/13/11 05:52 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
Are you saying that Lion Recovery cannot (re)install Lion without an internet connection to download Lion?
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#18297 - 10/13/11 05:56 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Are you saying that Lion Recovery cannot (re)install Lion without an internet connection to download Lion?

Yep! frown mad

See OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery, "Requirements for reinstalling OS X Lion," specifically.
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#18299 - 10/13/11 06:55 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
Hmmm, it sure looks like you're right. The articles I linked to above made it seem like Internet Recovery is an additional option rather than a required route to follow. If nothing else, this explains the size difference required for the Recovery disk (1GB) vs. the Lion download (4GB).

I now have to agree even more with tacit's earlier remark about the available alternatives for a bootable Lion backup disk being unsatisfactory, although I'd call it unbelievably stupid, not to put too fine a point on it. So it appears that a thumb drive is the solution after all, albeit the overly pricey Apple version...

And to conclude this episode, I have to apologize to Grelber, particularly if he figured out this particular limitation. On the positive side of things, that would mean that contrary to his claims he's too smart to throw in the towel. smirk
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#18300 - 10/13/11 07:14 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I'd love to hear Apple's answer to the question, although I suspect it would be an incredulous "Well... Why haven't you got (read "bought") a Time Capsule?"

How about users doing a clean install of Lion, booting that installation into FW target disk mode, imaging it on another Mac, and burning the image to a disc?

That, together with creating a recovery disc, would, I think, give one a "full set."
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#18301 - 10/13/11 07:31 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
If I understand you right, the whole thing is very simple. I made the install disk in 20 minutes using one-click free application Lion DiskMaker
http://blog.gete.net/lion-diskmaker-us/

It can also be done like here (already covered above)
http://www.informationweek.com/byte/howto/personal-tech/desktop-os/231002151

The only thing one needs is to have a copy of the installer on the hard drive.

P.S. Alternaut, I am sorry, did not see your first post where you covered this issue fully!


Edited by macnerd10 (10/14/11 12:41 PM)
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#18302 - 10/13/11 08:21 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
The only thing one needs is to have a copy of the installer on the hard drive.

As I said above, therein lies the rub: grelber does not have the installer, only the installed OS as it came with his iMac. He does have dialup, so a 4GB download is cruel and unusual punishment.
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#18303 - 10/13/11 09:41 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Agree on this...

If he has an Apple Store nearby, he might have some luck talking the geniuses into giving him an installer copy on a USB drive or even allow him to use their broadband to download. Maybe it's wishful thinking...
Otherwise, after having shelled out more than a grand on an iMac, he probably should just bite the bullet and spend 70 more for their USB toy.

If the rules don't forbid, I can volunteer and send him my DVD copy. How's that? We are both legitimate users of Lion after all.


Edited by macnerd10 (10/14/11 08:26 AM)
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#18304 - 10/14/11 12:24 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
Agree on this...

If he has an Apple Sore nearby, he might have some luck talking the geniuses into giving him an installer copy on a USB drive or even allow him to use their broadband to download. Maybe it's wishful thinking...
Otherwise, after having shelled out more than a grand on an iMac, he probably should just bite the bullet and spend 70 more for their USB toy.

If the rules don't forbid, I can volunteer and send him my DVD copy. How's that? We are both legitimate users of Lion after all.

I read somewhere that one of the options Apple has offered non-broadband users is the opportunity to d/l Lion at an Apple Store, which, unfortunately, is of no benefit to most of the world. (Sorry...can't locate the article.)

Buying the thumb drive is, of course, an option, but Apple has got to do better than that... "It just works!" does not work if it requires one to pay extra for the privilege!!!

I can't help thinking, though, that it's very difficult to believe that Apple has overlooked/failed to provide for the situation under discussion.
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#18307 - 10/14/11 04:16 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09

From Apple - OS X Lion - Upgrade to Lion. Only from the Mac App Store.:

"If you don't have broadband access, you can visit any Apple Retail Store to get help with downloading."
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#18311 - 10/14/11 08:04 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. If you have a working Intel Mac, and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there.

Not necessarily so. The hang-ups are Mac model-specific hardware drivers. Because of this, as mentioned before in this thread, you generally cannot install an older version of Mac OS X on a Mac that shipped with a newer one. This doesn't appear to apply to certain current Mac models shipping with Lion, but that's a rare exception.


Again, out of sheer curiosity I Googled and found this thread where other people (claim to) have installed Snow Leopard over Lion. (page 2 on that thread, msg 47)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1104312


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#18322 - 10/14/11 09:38 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. If you have a working Intel Mac, and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there.

Not necessarily so. The hang-ups are Mac model-specific hardware drivers. Because of this, as mentioned before in this thread, you generally cannot install an older version of Mac OS X on a Mac that shipped with a newer one. This doesn't appear to apply to certain current Mac models shipping with Lion, but that's a rare exception.

Again, out of sheer curiosity I Googled and found this thread where other people (claim to) have installed Snow Leopard over Lion. (page 2 on that thread, msg 47)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1104312

It's been pretty much a general rule with OS X that you can't boot a Mac from an OS X installer whose version predates the version with which the Mac shipped, but there have been exceptions, and the present instance appears to be one of them (although not necessarily in 100% of situations); Virtual1 mentioned it, although just in passing, here. (Note my comment re your situation in post #18241.) (Edit: That really applied to grelber.)

Note: And alternaut answered your question in post #18284 in this very thread. wink


Edited by artie505 (10/14/11 03:10 PM)
Edit Reason: correction
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#18330 - 10/14/11 10:26 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Okeedoke Artie, I was only curious. I'm not in that situation since all these here Macs are on Snow Leopard and I have no intention whatsoever of upgrading to Lion for years. Everything works and the business runs on Snow Leopard Macs.

Lion? No thanks. Look at all the grief out there!

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#18333 - 10/14/11 11:21 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Interesting. But when a disk has an OS predating the one on the hard drive it still may be possible. The most salient example is Disk Warrior. These guys are never in a hurry to update the OS on their DVDs, yet their SL DVD that I just got from them boots up my MBP with Lion. True, it does not have an installer, but still...


Edited by macnerd10 (10/14/11 11:21 AM)
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18334 - 10/14/11 11:24 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The grief has been disproportionately blown up, IMHO. I see two gripes only: the browsers do not talk to the Keychain properly in terms of some passwords and proxy servers, and the PPC apps do not run any more. Other than that, no change. And one can always make the home folder's Library visible grin


Edited by macnerd10 (10/14/11 11:25 AM)
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Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18336 - 10/14/11 12:27 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Agreed.

I have no major beefs with LION whatsoever. There is always a period of adjustment and discovery for me . . . . even when I moved from Leopard to Snow Leopard. Just goes with the territory.

(However, there is a lot a fancy stuff out there to do on the Mac which, admittedly, I do not . . . so I would not encounter the frustrating issues that others are experiencing with those applications, etc.)

So far, I am a happy camper with LION. (Although I wish I could add more Visualizers which work with iTUNES and LION.)

The optimist in me figures that APPLE is working on any and all glitches, so reverting back to SNOW LEOPARD is not part of my plan.

grin


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#18337 - 10/14/11 12:38 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MG2009]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
One glitch is their stubborn desire to hide the home Library. I made it visible through Terminal thinking that it would be rock solid. However, I find it hidden again after 10.7.2 update was applied grin
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Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18339 - 10/14/11 12:42 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
So, grelber, my offer still stands and my contact e-mail is in my profile.
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Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18342 - 10/14/11 12:57 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Good catch! For those who may not be in the know . . .

http://tarastips.net/2011/05/show-hidden-library-folder-in-mac-osx-lion/



Briefly: Copy chflags nohidden ~/Library and Paste into TERMINAL; hit RETURN

(i.e. find TERMINAL in the Utilities folder within the Applications folder)

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#18345 - 10/14/11 01:14 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: macnerd10]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
But when a disk has an OS predating the one on the hard drive it still may be possible. The most salient example is Disk Warrior. These guys are never in a hurry to update the OS on their DVDs, yet their SL DVD that I just got from them boots up my MBP with Lion.

Apples and oranges, of sorts. Obviously, if a(n Intel) Mac that shipped with let's say Tiger was upgraded to Lion, it would boot from all generic OS versions following the one it shipped with because they all contain the required hardware drivers. It doesn't work the other way around: no Mac shipping with Lion can boot from a Tiger OS disc, because the necessary hardware drivers did not yet exist when Tiger was released.

As to Alsoft's policy regarding updating the OS on bootable DiskWarrior discs, that's essentially governed by restrictions imposed by Apple regarding OS updates included with DiskWarrior. DW updaters typically use the OS version installed on the (required) original DW Installer disc to generate the updater disc. In contrast, DW upgrade discs are shipped with a current version of the OS. Depending on the availability of the system startup files required by new Mac models, you may not be able to boot such Macs with the then-current DW disc.
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#18347 - 10/14/11 01:23 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: tacit]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: tacit
I actually find all of these options unsatisfactory.

Option #1 assumes the hard drive still works. A recovery partition is utterly useless in the face of a hard drive failure, as I discussed in Virtual1's thread. Sure, you can buy a new hard drive to replace the one that failed...

...but then you have no OS media and so no way to reinstall.

Option 2 requires that every computer user go out and purchase a second hard drive to use as the Time Machine backup. And even then, if your primary hard drive fails, you're just as buggered as you re in Option 1--ok, so you have this wonderful non-bootable Time Machine backup. So what? What do you do now? Without install media, you can't reinstall the operating system on your computer so you can't use the Time Machine backup.

Option 3 doesn't help at all. If you can't get an operating system onto your computer, you can't use the App Store.

So, if your hard drive fails, and you don't have installation media...now what?

Re-think option 2. If you don't go out and buy an external disk for backup, you're eventually going to be screwed anyway. Not backing up is not a reasonable option.

What I did was use SuperDuper to clone the InstallESD.dmg image onto my TM backup. (When SuperDuper makes a clone, it will carefully step around any TM backup on the destination volume, leaving it unscathed. The result is a single volume that is both a TM backup and a Lion Install disk.)

That makes your TM backup bootable. It doesn't boot into your latest (or indeed, any) snapshot. It boots into the Lion installer. One of the install options is to recover from a TM backup.

I took the time to test this thoroughly. It can install Lion onto a blank disk, and then use Migration Assistant to recover user files. Or it can restore any particular TM snapshot onto any volume, even a blank one. If the snapshot you restore from was from when you were running Snow Leopard, it (the Lion installer!) will happily reinstall that copy of Snow Leopard. If the snapshot you restore from was from when you were running Lion, and you're restoring onto a blank volume, it'll happily carve out and initialize a matching Recovery HD partition adjacent to that volume. (And, if you're restoring Snow Leopard to a partition that already has Lion on it, it'll reclaim that Recovery HD partition, reabsorbing it into the now-Snow Leopard partition.

In short, it just works, doing whatever you want in the way you would expect it to work.

Now, admittedly, if your main drive has died, you won't be able to restore onto it. You'll have to buy a new drive to replace the dead one, but that's just the way it is. You can't really fault Apple for that.

And, the fact that you still can't just boot from your backup disk and be up and running, without the delay of restoring onto a new disk, is also to be expected, if you think about it. A bootable clone is a useful kind of backup to have, but you'd be insane to rely on that as your only backup. The moment you actually boot off your only backup, you have no backup, and running without a backup is just crazy. Even if you have a bootable backup, the only thing you're going to do with it in an emergency is to immediately clone it again, and we're talking about the same delay as if you restored from any other kind of backup.


But of course, you wouldn't rely on only one method. You'd use #1 and #2 and #3 and:

Option #4: Internet Recovery. If your machine shipped with Lion, then it has in firmware sufficient recovery logic to establish an internet connection and net-boot off a recovery partition on one of Apple's servers. From there, you can install the latest version of Lion, even onto a completely blank disk. It'll even initialize the disk for you, in case it's not already GPT/HFS+(Journaled), and re-create the Recovery HD partition, so you won't have to use Internet Recovery every time.


Edited by ganbustein (10/14/11 01:24 PM)

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#18351 - 10/14/11 02:32 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Good point!
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18353 - 10/14/11 02:41 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MG2009]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
The folks in that thread found a caveat in this command: chflags gets updated any time one updates OS, restarts or simply logs out; so the ~Library will become hidden again. The alternative is to put sudo with a space before that command and then go through admin password. Did not test it yet, so cannot tell whether this would stick.


Edited by macnerd10 (10/14/11 02:42 PM)
_________________________
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#18357 - 10/14/11 03:23 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: ganbustein]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> Re-think option 2. [....]

Excellent! Thanks. cool smile (Me, though, I'm gonna go the thumb drive route.)

> Option #4: Internet Recovery. If your machine shipped with Lion, then it has in firmware sufficient recovery logic to establish an internet connection and net-boot off a recovery partition on one of Apple's servers. From there, you can install the latest version of Lion, even onto a completely blank disk. It'll even initialize the disk for you, in case it's not already GPT/HFS+(Journaled), and re-create the Recovery HD partition, so you won't have to use Internet Recovery every time.

How do you access Internet Recovery (which sounds like the missing piece in the puzzle)?
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#18358 - 10/14/11 03:46 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: ganbustein]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
That makes your TM backup bootable. It doesn't boot into your latest (or indeed, any) snapshot. It boots into the Lion installer. One of the install options is to recover from a TM backup.

Thanks for this brilliantly simple strategic tip!

For those upgrading to Lion via a new Mac, are there any issues you're aware of regarding acquisition of InstallESD.dmg? I note that as of mid-July, according to Dan Frakes, a volume created from the downloadable Lion installer "will not boot a 2011 Mac mini or 2011 MacBook Air, which ship with a newer version of Lion preinstalled."

Will the Mac App Store version of Lion continue to be simply 10.7, updatable via Software Update, or will it periodically be bumped up to a later point release, as with retail versions of a given reference release back in the days of physical OS X media?
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